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Old
04-16-2013, 11:43 PM
  #26
TSA0402
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
The guys we move in the deal are easily replaceable because of our depth.

We can take run at the cup now and for the next 5+ years
Is this a joke? Depth? What depth? We have prospects, great prospects, but lets not get foolish. right now most teams consider us to have 3-4 top six forwards.

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04-16-2013, 11:45 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Oooh 13 GP... I'm getting excited already... I'm willing to admit I dont know much about Larsson, but at the same time, based on Hackett being a goalie, he would have to be an extraordinary prospect for what you are saying to make sense. Meaning he is above Silfverberg.
Larsson is 20 years old and putting up great rookie numbers 68GP 41Pts... will be a second line center in the NHL in a few years.

Hackett has ripped up the AHL... turned 23 in March
10-11 45GP .916sv%
11-12 44GP .917sv%
12-13 45GP .909sv%

It's clear by your post you have no idea who these players are

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04-16-2013, 11:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Is this a joke? Depth? What depth? We have prospects, great prospects, but lets not get foolish. right now most teams consider us to have 3-4 top six forwards.
What depth? The depth that allowed us to stay in a playoff spot despite the likes of Spezza, Karlsson, Michalek, Andersson, Cowen, etc being injured this year for substantial amount of time.

Dude we are not sitting in a playoff spot without the insane amount of depth we have

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Old
04-16-2013, 11:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
Larsson is 20 years old and putting up great rookie numbers 68GP 41Pts... will be a second line center in the NHL in a few years.

Hackett has ripped up the AHL... turned 23 in March
10-11 45GP .916sv%
11-12 44GP .917sv%
12-13 45GP .909sv%

It's clear by your post you have no idea who these players are
Good for Hackett, he might be great on another team. Larsson isn't a PPG guy so I wouldnt trade a two-way Silfverberg for that.

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04-16-2013, 11:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
What depth? The depth that allowed us to stay in a playoff spot despite the likes of Spezza, Karlsson, Michalek, Andersson, Cowen, etc being injured this year for substantial amount of time.

Dude we are not sitting in a playoff spot without the insane amount of depth we have
Its called coaching. Toronto has had the same crap players, with a great coach, and look at the result. Go ahead and tell me Toronto has superior players.

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04-16-2013, 11:55 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
What depth? The depth that allowed us to stay in a playoff spot despite the likes of Spezza, Karlsson, Michalek, Andersson, Cowen, etc being injured this year for substantial amount of time.

Dude we are not sitting in a playoff spot without the insane amount of depth we have
Your missing the point, the coach has done well with that team and the players have done well but to think that if we keep those same players for an 82 game season and let alone in the playoffs is ridiculous, there is no way we will win playoffs without spezza,karlsson, michalek, the veterans such as alfredsson and gonchar are really at the end of their playing career, philipps and neil are getting older, so dont expect this team to compete and play well if their stars are always injured and without the veterans above it will be even harder, we need skilled guys, players who can step in and play top 6 and play well, trading silf and a potential first round pick wont help that. . Ottawa is deep that is a fact but we dont have high end talent and only a few with top 6 potential.

The only guys we have in the system that are safe to say will play top 6 minutes are zibby,silf, turris, take away alfie, spezz, michalek and then silf and thats a very low skilled team. Noesen has capability to be top 6 and so is conacher but those are yet to be seen

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04-17-2013, 12:00 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
a probably 30 goal man with a pretty big cap hit.
He brings so much more than that, and his game has improved lately. He hits, fights, takes faceoffs, etc.. I fully expect him to put up 35 or even closer to 40 next year. How many games has he missed in the past 5 years? One. That's pretty damn good in todays game, especially for the type of game he plays.

4.4 cap hit is a steal for a guy like Ladd. Most guys in the scoring race around him are making 6-7.5. There's also 3 years left on his contract after this year. That increases his value in a trade quite a lot.

That being said, we're not trading him.

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Old
04-17-2013, 12:03 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Good for Hackett, he might be great on another team. Larsson isn't a PPG guy so I wouldnt trade a two-way Silfverberg for that.
Silfverberg was under a PPG in the AHL... He is 22 years old and has 8G in 41 games

Ladd has more goals then the dude has points.

You are over valuing the Sens assets way to much

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04-17-2013, 12:05 AM
  #34
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He brings so much more than that, and his game has improved lately. He hits, fights, takes faceoffs, etc.. I fully expect him to put up 35 or even closer to 40 next year.

4.4 cap hit is a steal for a guy like Ladd. Most guys in the scoring race around him are making 6-7.5. There's also 3 years left on his contract after this year. That increases his value in a trade quite a lot.

That being said, we're not trading him.
If you think he is a 35-40 goal man, you would be well to keep him. I'm not trying to make this into a Ladd sucks campaign. I just dont think he is worth anywhere near Silfverberg, ok top prospect and 1st, especially for a winger.

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04-17-2013, 12:07 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
Silfverberg was under a PPG in the AHL... He is 22 years old and has 8G in 41 games

Ladd has more goals then the dude has points.

You are over valuing the Sens assets way to much
How well did Andrew Ladd do at 22 years old just out of curiousity?

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04-17-2013, 12:08 AM
  #36
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Approached 30G the last two years... would hit 30+ this year if not for lockout... heart and soul leader

Dude is awesome.
Is a year younger than Michalek and hasn't had as good of a career as Michalek.

Yet you seem to be offering a package that looks a little too much like the Rick Nash package... for a 50 point player.

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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Uh... hate to agree with you, but hell no. That package doesnt even come close to what was given to Hossa or Kovalchuk, let alone Andrew Ladd.
Ouch, hate to agree with me? I've barely even been coming here.

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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
You will probably see Ottawa package assets together for an impact winger... it may not be Ladd but they will target an impact winger and go hard after him.

Sens window is now... Spezza is not getting any younger... Andersson and Lehner give the team a ridiculous 1-2 in net... D is good... lots of depth players... lots of cheap talent.

The Sens are ready to go for it... they are loaded with youth ad prospects
I agree that this will probably have to happen at some point... but compare Nash's career to Ladd's and then compare the Nash package to your offer.

What you should find is that Nash's career is way ****ing better than Ladd's, while your offer is way too close to package that acquired Nash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
The guys we move in the deal are easily replaceable because of our depth.

We can take run at the cup now and for the next 5+ years
Teams that piss depth away in bad trades don't have it.

Ottawa should be able to compete just as well with an improving Silfverberg as a 50 point a season producing Ladd.

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04-17-2013, 12:12 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
If you think he is a 35-40 goal man, you would be well to keep him. I'm not trying to make this into a Ladd sucks campaign. I just dont think he is worth anywhere near Silfverberg, ok top prospect and 1st, especially for a winger.
I think we're both right. The trade doesn't make any sense. But I also think Ladd would fetch a lot more than your average 30 goal scorer. He simply doesn't have anything missing to his game. Maybe a one-timer? His wrist shot is killer though.

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04-17-2013, 12:13 AM
  #38
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Silfverberg was under a PPG in the AHL...
The leading scorer in the AHL this season was under a PPG.

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Old
04-17-2013, 12:22 AM
  #39
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I think we're both right. The trade doesn't make any sense. But I also think Ladd would fetch a lot more than your average 30 goal scorer. He simply doesn't have anything missing to his game. Maybe a one-timer? His wrist shot is killer though.
Eh... I'll conceed based on his circumstance he is worth alot. 28-34 goal scorer that doesn't really matter to me, the package offered is absurd imo. I will admit, I am a huge Silfverberg homer, and would not be surprised if he comes close or surpasses Ladd's numbers, and that is not meant as a slight by any means. I consider Ladd to be a top line winger.

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04-17-2013, 12:24 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The Great Below View Post
Silfverberg was under a PPG in the AHL... He is 22 years old and has 8G in 41 games

Ladd has more goals then the dude has points.

You are over valuing the Sens assets way to much
And you're being impatient and illogical to have already considered the sens as contenders without seeing how the team does when fully healthy. Why move silfverberg or zibanejad so early on in their careers? You dont move young players with massive upside unless you know exactly what you have on your current roster. Whose to say, silfverberg doesn't click with spezza? Or Stone? Also you dont start moving the players who kept you afloat after the rash injuries you sustained. Do not want a muckler situation where we start moving the wrong young players for pieces that dont put us over the top IF we get to that position.

Its year 2 of the rebuild. We still have a year left of continuing the youth movement and hopefully sens can fill their holes from within...

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04-17-2013, 12:26 AM
  #41
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It's unbelievable how much Ladd is being undervalued here (no surprise since this happens in almost every trade thread on HF). Nash's CAREER better than Ladds? Ladd has two Stanley cup rings. Advantage Ladd. While I agree that Nash is a better PLAYER, you judge a player by his accolades and success when comparing someone's career, not solely by by his point production.

Trade by Ottawa is indeed an over payment, but I wouldn't accept it. We are not rebuilding and Silfverberg's future role/upside in the NHL is still up for debate.

Ladd is currently on pace for 72 points in an 82 game season and is a very durable player. Playing with Spezza & Karlsson could somewhat easily make him a PPG player.

Overall, good pitch. Thanks, but no thanks.

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Old
04-17-2013, 12:27 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Eh... I'll conceed based on his circumstance he is worth alot. 28-34 goal scorer that doesn't really matter to me, the package offered is absurd imo. I will admit, I am a huge Silfverberg homer, and would not be surprised if he comes close or surpasses Ladd's numbers, and that is not meant as a slight by any means. I consider Ladd to be a top line winger.
Ladd is currently #20 in overall scoring and third among Left Wingers. I don't see Silfverberg passing those numbers.

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04-17-2013, 12:29 AM
  #43
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How well did Andrew Ladd do at 22 years old just out of curiousity?
He already had a ring at 22. Here's some stats:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...64&view=splits

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...008&gameType=2

Kind of close on points per game, but that's misleading. Take a look at the TOI/g. behindthenet shows Ladd was facing tougher opponents, and was still scoring 50% more pts/60 minutes.

But you can't really compare two players like this. Ladd would have much higher career numbers if he wasn't always playing on stacked teams. He was playing on Chicagos 3rd line for chrissakes.

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04-17-2013, 12:38 AM
  #44
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It's unbelievable how much Ladd is being undervalued here (no surprise since this happens in almost every trade thread on HF). Nash's CAREER better than Ladds? Ladd has two Stanley cup rings. Advantage Ladd. While I agree that Nash is a better PLAYER, you judge a player by his accolades and success when comparing someone's career, not solely by by his point production.
Ladd has rings because he was the 10th best player on those teams, Nash doesn't because he was the best player on his. Little different scenario there, eh?

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04-17-2013, 12:42 AM
  #45
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Ladd is currently #20 in overall scoring and third among Left Wingers. I don't see Silfverberg passing those numbers.
Do you see Ladd ever matching those numbers again or even close? ... Because he never has been before. Could we look at his stats in this shortened season the way that we look at Adam Chreighton's stats in the last short season?

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04-17-2013, 12:42 AM
  #46
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Ladd is currently #20 in overall scoring and third among Left Wingers. I don't see Silfverberg passing those numbers.
Thats your right, even if he doesnt and comes close, the trade still looks absurd.

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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
He already had a ring at 22. Here's some stats:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...64&view=splits

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...008&gameType=2

Kind of close on points per game, but that's misleading. Take a look at the TOI/g. behindthenet shows Ladd was facing tougher opponents, and was still scoring 50% more pts/60 minutes.

But you can't really compare two players like this. Ladd would have much higher career numbers if he wasn't always playing on stacked teams. He was playing on Chicagos 3rd line for chrissakes.
What did Ladd do when he was 22. Look, Im not trying to start a war, but Ladd was on a ridiculously good team. The kind of team that people wish to cheer for. Ladd on a third line, Byfuglien as a support guy, Campbell as a supporting guy, come on.... that team was ridiculously stacked.

I am looking at a 27 year old vs a 22 year old. Ladd wasnt particularly great at 22. Silfverberg has had some struggles, but has proven worthwhile in others.

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04-17-2013, 12:47 AM
  #47
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I'd do it.

Silfverberg has the tools, but I'm not nearly as high on him as others. Loses way too many battles and kills far too many chances to make me consider him a future top 6 forward, until he fixes the holes in his game.

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04-17-2013, 12:54 AM
  #48
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Ladd has rings because he was the 10th best player on those teams, Nash doesn't because he was the best player on his. Little different scenario there, eh?
Right, because Ladd was a non factor in the playoffs for Chicago and Carolina . Talk to their respective fan bases and ask them if he was a third wheel in their playoff run. Winning the Stanley cup on two different teams is quite the accomplishment.

And because we established Nash is a better player, shouldn't you expect him to drive his team to the playoffs more often? Not working out so well for NYR at the moment as they are about to be passed by Ladd and the Jets (shameless fan hype, I know)!

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04-17-2013, 12:56 AM
  #49
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Right, because Ladd was a non factor in the playoffs for Chicago and Carolina . Talk to their respective fan bases and ask them if he was a third wheel in their playoff run. Winning the Stanley cup on two different teams is quite the accomplishment.

And because we established Nash is a better player, shouldn't you expect him to drive his team to the playoffs more often? Not working out so well for NYR at the moment as they are about to be passed by Ladd and the Jets (shameless fan hype, I know)!
This sounds too much like Dustin Penner to take seriously.

Dont get me wrong, I love pancakes.

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04-17-2013, 01:00 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
What did Ladd do when he was 22. Look, Im not trying to start a war, but Ladd was on a ridiculously good team. The kind of team that people wish to cheer for. Ladd on a third line, Byfuglien as a support guy, Campbell as a supporting guy, come on.... that team was ridiculously stacked.
That is entirely the point. What if he played on a different team on a more offensive role with more minutes? His career numbers would look totally different. He has always been somewhat pushed down by the teams he's played for. He wasn't given a real chance until he was traded to Atlanta. Also consider he has never played with an elite center or even a #1c. Imagine what he would do with a guy like Spezza? Another factor to consider is Winnipeg basically has one scoring line. Pretty big drop off after our "big 4" (Ladd-Little-Wheeler, and Kane). In fact Kanes production suffers because nobody on his line comes close to his talent, so all of our opposition cheats to his side and double teams him. Teams know if they can shut down our #1 line they will beat us.

That's why it's tough to compare two players, you have to consider the role they're put into. Spezza is an elite #1c. But if he played for Pittsburgh, what would his role be, and would he put up the same numbers? If he's put into a 3rd line role with scrub wingers like Glass, does that diminish his trade value because his boxcar stats don't look as good?

Trading players isn't simply looking at their past point production and projecting what they would do on your team. You must consider past and future utilization. That's why a lot of trades are "win-win".


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