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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

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Old
04-16-2013, 10:55 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Well, yeah, that's where the change needs to occur. I've resigned myself to the fact that Sather will be here as long as he wants, though.

FWIW, I think Stepan has been a #1 center/playmaker this season, and I think the lack of offense from the D directly correlates to Tortorella's 'system'. They don't get points because the puck never gets back to the point, and when it does, they don't shoot. Any defenseman can shoot, and the ones we have aren't even poor in that facet, aside from Girardi, they just need to get it to the net. The lack of a #1 catalyst on the D does sting (pun?), though.
Stepan has been a a #1 scorer this season., which is unorthodox, but great. Especially if you happen to have a Marty St. Louis or a Pat Kane on your squad. The Rangers don't. They have Rick Nash. It gives you two guys that can put the puck in the net, but no guys that are enabling lesser players on the team to do it with any kind of consistency.

Perhaps the D don't shoot the puck enough, but the real issue is that there just isn't very much creativity or vision on the blueline. It isn't much different from the forwards. There just isn't any consistent creation of high quality scoring chances. The passing is plain, predictable, and often poorly executed. The movement of the players and the puck in the offensive zone is routine, unimaginative, and easy to defend against.

Del Zotto and Stralman are just shells of themselves offensively, and maybe that is on the coach, too. Overall, however, I don't think there is as much talent on the team as there is on any of the best teams in the league, and even some of the teams that don't fall into that category.

Like I said, I think both the players and the coach are part of the problem, and the blame falls on the front office, responsible for again failing to learn from repeated mistakes.

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04-16-2013, 10:56 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Well he logged the third most PP time of forwards, so that's first grouping. Perhaps there was some strategy to get Nash up against the Flyers number twos... but not that's not possible right? Or some other reasonable explanation? Nah, it's more likely the guy with a cup and a jack adams award is just an idiot.
um.....are you a Torts supporter?

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Old
04-16-2013, 10:57 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Nah, it's more likely the guy with a cup and a jack adams award is just an idiot.
No, but I'd say it's pretty likely that the guy that hired him, who has accomplished absolutely nothing over the last 20 consecutive years of employment with two different organizations is.

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04-16-2013, 10:58 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Like I said, I think both the players and the coach are part of the problem, and the blame falls on the front office, responsible for again failing to learn from repeated mistakes.
And that is indisputable.

Look at other GMs that have been with the same team for as long as Sather. Lamierello? Countless high finishes, playoff berths and 3 Cups. Holland? Countless division championship seasons, 4 cups, 20 straight seasons in the playoffs.

Sather? No cups, 1 trip to the ECF, seven years in a row of no playoffs, 1 division title.

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04-16-2013, 11:02 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
And that is indisputable.

Look at other GMs that have been with the same team for as long as Sather. Lamierello? Countless high finishes, playoff berths and 3 Cups. Holland? Countless division championship seasons, 4 cups, 20 straight seasons in the playoffs.

Sather? No cups, 1 trip to the ECF, seven years in a row of no playoffs, 1 division title.
Well I guess a comparable would be the incompetent Kevin Lowe.

Sather has accomplished no more than his buddy Kevin Lowe. 13 seasons as GM/President, both have mediocre results.

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04-16-2013, 11:03 PM
  #456
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Well I guess a comparable would be the incompetent Kevin Lowe.

Sather has accomplished no more than his buddy Kevin Lowe. 13 seasons as GM/President, both have mediocre results.
well.....runs in the family (Oiler) I guess

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04-16-2013, 11:05 PM
  #457
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well.....runs in the family (Oiler) I guess
And the Rangers.


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Old
04-16-2013, 11:13 PM
  #458
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I'm almost upset at myself being excited for this piece of crap team's games. I actually thought they turned a corner winning a thriller in Long Island. I honestly hope they lose on Thursday too, so we can speed up the process of out with the old, in with the new. Keep Sullivan with our D, hire an offensive minded coach who actually adapts in-game to give us a chance to win. This roster is capable of so much more.

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04-16-2013, 11:15 PM
  #459
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Sting, i usually don' disagree with your POV, but look at the Islanders roster, go over the full thing. Do you honestly believe we are less talented as a team? Yes, they have Visnovsky, and Streit but I don't believe that's the key to their insane offense. They can score 5 goals with consistency in this league under Capuano, I know they have players with low salary chipping in, but talent-wise what makes their roster so much better to be able to score 5 goals a game? It's sickening.

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04-16-2013, 11:18 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by First Man In View Post
Sting, i usually don' disagree with your POV, but look at the Islanders roster, go over the full thing. Do you honestly believe we are less talented as a team? Yes, they have Visnovsky, and Streit but I don't believe that's the key to their insane offense. They can score 5 goals with consistency in this league under Capuano, I know they have players with low salary chipping in, but talent-wise what makes their roster so much better to be able to score 5 goals a game? It's sickening.
I think they do.

Tavares is one of the best players in the world. Moulson is a great finisher, Grabner is a speed demon that can score, Nielsen is a great two-way playmaker, Okposo has been a bull the last few weeks, and Bailey has developed into a dangerous scoring winger. Also, as mentioned, they have some serious offensive ability on their D.

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04-16-2013, 11:24 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by First Man In View Post
Sting, i usually don' disagree with your POV, but look at the Islanders roster, go over the full thing. Do you honestly believe we are less talented as a team? Yes, they have Visnovsky, and Streit but I don't believe that's the key to their insane offense. They can score 5 goals with consistency in this league under Capuano, I know they have players with low salary chipping in, but talent-wise what makes their roster so much better to be able to score 5 goals a game? It's sickening.
The key to their insane offense is John Tavares. He's awesome, and he's a nightmare for other teams to play against. He creates so many chances. He can pass pretty damn well, and he's one of the best shooters in the league. He specializes at making things happen in the slot, which is the most important piece of the rink. That's where most goals comes from, and that's where Tavares likes to operate. That's where he excels at getting to, shift after shift.

But I wouldn't discount Streit and Vis, especially the former. Great passing at the blueline, and not just on the rush like Del Zotto. In the offensive zone, these are creative players who see plays unfolding and understand how to develop scoring chances.

Part of it is coaching, part of it is players.

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04-16-2013, 11:25 PM
  #462
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The Islanders have probably been the better offensive team since Tavares was drafted.

He is really some player and the Rangers don't have anyone like him. Damn you, Isles, for finally doing something right.

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04-16-2013, 11:26 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
I think they do.

Tavares is one of the best players in the world. Moulson is a great finisher, Grabner is a speed demon that can score, Nielsen is a great two-way playmaker, Okposo has been a bull the last few weeks, and Bailey has developed into a dangerous scoring winger. Also, as mentioned, they have some serious offensive ability on their D.
i would bet that with Capuano as our coach....we would score 3-4 goals consistently every game. We might give up more as well......but I would take my chances with Henrik on those

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04-16-2013, 11:26 PM
  #464
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Tavares is getting severely overrated. He is obviously a really good player but he is not close to top 5 in the league or anything. He has exactly 1 PPG right now which makes him an excellent player but certainly not the elite tier. Obviously he's just 22 and it's highly likely he will become one of the best players in the game but he's not there yet. His numbers are not even so different from Nash right now.

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04-16-2013, 11:29 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
I considered posting this exactly before I read it and I decided against it because he seemed hopeless. I guess I'd be mad too if I actually thought the coach was saying, "You'll get benched if you even try to carry the puck in. You have tons of space? Dump and chase anyway! I like that better!"
i've said this before, why doesn't he tell them TO carry the puck in? the dump and chase isn't working and he clearly isn't doing a thing about it. isn't it a coaches job to, i dont know, coach? he should be trying something different, adapting. but no we are forced to watch the same inept offense night after night.

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04-16-2013, 11:32 PM
  #466
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The dump and chase is pretty ridiculous on the powerplay. Particularly when we have 3 guys standing at the blue line or in the neutral zone. We might as well just turn backwards and clear it ourselves to save the time.

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04-16-2013, 11:45 PM
  #467
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I also don't understand how he can make consistently awful line decisions. He did a few things today that are completely inexusable

1. Powe on the ice when down by 1 with 2 minutes left - absolutely cannot be explained logically.

2. Nash off the top PP unit and when he did play having the top unit out for 35 seconds?

3. Continued use of Girardi on top PP unit over someone like McDonagh or Moore who are much better skaters/puck handlers and can bring the puck in the zone and walk the blue line

4. Repeatedly putting out the 4th line for the shift immediately after a goal.

5. Using Brassard on a faceoff at the end of the game (I know he won his and Stepan lost his but throughout his career Brassard has been a really terrible faceoff guy at 45%...basing his 59% in 6 games here and assuming that he's now that good is illogical. Stepan is pretty horrible at faceoff himself though Richards is pretty average. Obviously losing Boyle hurt here)

6. Way too little Moore for like the 5th game in a row. It's like he assumes the 6th defenseman is incompetent and should not be allowed to play - Note: We don't have Bickel in this spot anymore...the new guy is very capable and an asset.

7. Way too much line juggling in general - No need to elaborate.

And this is just line/player decisions not commenting on anything to do with his other in game strategy.

Oh and I suppose

8. Callahan is not a 1st line player who should be getting 20-25 minutes a game. He is number 4 among forwards in TOI/game. This is playing him above his skill level and causing him to be less effective. Similar thing as to Boyle although obviously Callahan is a much better player than Boyle.

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04-17-2013, 12:26 AM
  #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Well he logged the third most PP time of forwards, so that's first grouping. Perhaps there was some strategy to get Nash up against the Flyers number twos... but not that's not possible right? Or some other reasonable explanation? Nah, it's more likely the guy with a cup and a jack adams award is just an idiot.
Stop being so sarcastic about yourself now John. You fool no one...

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04-17-2013, 12:45 AM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Well he logged the third most PP time of forwards, so that's first grouping. Perhaps there was some strategy to get Nash up against the Flyers number twos... but not that's not possible right? Or some other reasonable explanation? Nah, it's more likely the guy with a cup and a jack adams award is just an idiot.
Again, referring to what he accomplished almost a decade ago does not at all mean he knows what he is doing now with this roster at this current moment in time. His ideas, strategies, and system do not work. Not in this era of the NHL. You can talk about last year all you want as well but Henrik Lundqvist, the Vezina winner, sure helped make Torts look good.

And to your point about matchups...Torts has not operated that way with Nash through this entire season. He had not done so apparently with Gaborik in year's past. I'd find it truly hard to believe he did that on purpose tonight, at least not for matchups sake. And to further discard your defense of Torts, Nash makes $7.8 million per year, you pay him as your best player. At some point in this game tonight IF Torts was really going out of his way to play the matchup game with Philly's defense, being down a goal in the 2nd and 3rd was not the time to start experimenting. AND TO EVEN FURTHER discard your defense of Torts, Philly's defense was depleted tonight. It has been the majority of the year. Who are you avoiding on that defense? Last time I checked, Pronger wasn't in uniform. Luke Schenn? Mediocre Luke Schenn? Undersized, more offensive minded Timmonen? C'mon that's just pathetic then. Chara wasn't out there. Orpik wasn't out there. Who was Torts avoiding? Just stupid.

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04-17-2013, 01:25 AM
  #470
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We have no passing game and it of course shows a ton on our PP but also in other areas.

We play 2004 hockey in 2013, it's just not working.

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04-17-2013, 01:29 AM
  #471
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All we can do is look on the ice, the teams we play are so much better organized than we are. So much more poised when handling the puck. So much more set structure in their play.

Our approach does not seem to give us an advantage, it even seem to be the opposite.

I actually like Torts when it comes to handling the players. But, the above is not a good grade for a coach and very typical for a coach who has failed to adopt to a new era. And we have seen it before, Tampa post lockout was a mess and when Torts where kicked out they sat at the 30th overall position in the league...

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04-17-2013, 01:32 AM
  #472
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We have no passing game and it of course shows a ton on our PP but also in other areas.

We play 2004 hockey in 2013, it's just not working.
Yeah - but we made our 2 big blockbuster trades this past year and look what we got?
A team barely above .500 hockey and clinging to the playoff spot. Just what we all wanted and expected after last seasons Aberrational Cinderella Story. Fire Sather, Torts and Sullivan. Now!

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04-17-2013, 01:52 AM
  #473
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
All we can do is look on the ice, the teams we play are so much better organized than we are. So much more poised when handling the puck. So much more set structure in their play.

Our approach does not seem to give us an advantage, it even seem to be the opposite.

I actually like Torts when it comes to handling the players. But, the above is not a good grade for a coach and very typical for a coach who has failed to adopt to a new era. And we have seen it before, Tampa post lockout was a mess and when Torts where kicked out they sat at the 30th overall position in the league...
I agree with this, but then comes the question of how long it would take to implement an entirely new system? What if it would take over a season or two? Are we patient? I really want Torts gone also,it we need to find a replacement who can utilize our teams strengths.

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04-17-2013, 02:06 AM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
Well he logged the third most PP time of forwards, so that's first grouping. Perhaps there was some strategy to get Nash up against the Flyers number twos... but not that's not possible right? Or some other reasonable explanation? Nah, it's more likely the guy with a cup and a jack adams award is just an idiot.
I admire that you stand by your guns with consistency, but he won the Jack Adams pre-lockout. He had a great run that year, but itís a long time ago and the game has changed a lot. Tortorella hasnít changed with it enough to excel in todayís game.

This team, right now, is a poorly coached team and has been almost his entire tenure. Their fundamentals are deplorable: positioning is bad; passing, transition, and power play look like they are never practiced. Tortorellaís in game adjusting and decision making is mediocre to sub-par. And his many public personnel bashes are unprofessional, damaging, and simply bad for morale. You have a problem with a player, handle it in the locker room. Donít publicly throw your guys under a bus with the press or during a practice.

I honestly find the guy likable and feel bad for him as it looks like heís lost the team and appears the players have finally given up on him. It honestly is tough to watch, because I think itís obvious the coaches do care about the organization and obviously want to win. But in my personal estimation, I never felt he did a great job here and overall feel the team has under-achieved during his tenure.

I respect that you feel differently, but bringing up a pre-lockout Adams to strengthen your case does nothing to solidify or speak to whatís happening now.

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04-17-2013, 02:08 AM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Laces out Dan View Post
I admire that you stand by your guns with consistency, but he won the Jack Adams pre-lockout. He had a great run that year, but itís a long time ago and the game has changed a lot. Tortorella hasnít changed with it enough to excel in todayís game.

This team, right now, is a poorly coached team and has been almost his entire tenure. Their fundamentals are deplorable: positioning is bad; passing, transition, and power play look like they are never practiced. Tortorellaís in game adjusting and decision making is mediocre to sub-par. And his many public personnel bashes are unprofessional, damaging, and simply bad for morale. You have a problem with a player, handle it in the locker room. Donít publicly throw your guys under a bus with the press or during a practice.

I honestly find the guy likable and feel bad for him as it looks like heís lost the team and appears the players have finally given up on him. It honestly is tough to watch, because I think itís obvious the coaches do care about the organization and obviously want to win. But in my personal estimation, I never felt he did a great job here and overall feel the team has under-achieved during his tenure.

I respect that you feel differently, but bringing up a pre-lockout Adams to strengthen your case does nothing to solidify or speak to whatís happening now.
Great post.

The lack of fundamentals is truly sickening to watch.

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