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Old
04-17-2013, 12:22 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
Sorry I never played NHL13... You guys ***** that we need some sort of mini-rebuild and not a full blow up.. I am giving you options here.. What is it that makes you think Stalock cant start???? Based on what exactly?? We as Sharks fans pound our chest and claim we have great goaltending in our pipeline, yet you say Stalock would suck and why would I trade Niemi....BECAUSE WE HAVE DEPTH at the goalie position..Nemo is expendable..
Saying Nemo is expendable because we have Stalock is like saying Thornton is expendable because we have Hertl. Just because we have a decent prospect waiting in the wings doesn't mean the proven veteran is expendable and the organization should immediately dump the responsibility of carrying the entire franchise on a player who has never played an NHL game.

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04-17-2013, 12:36 AM
  #27
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Goaltending prospects are kinda like luxuries especially when you have a strong goaltender in net already. Say Niemi gets injured, there's no way we aren't going to be nervous about having a tandem of Greiss and Stalock but if Stalock or Greiss just runs away with it then its fine but at the moment, they're both totally unproven as a starting NHL goalie.

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04-17-2013, 12:56 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
Goaltending prospects are kinda like luxuries especially when you have a strong goaltender in net already. Say Niemi gets injured, there's no way we aren't going to be nervous about having a tandem of Greiss and Stalock but if Stalock or Greiss just runs away with it then its fine but at the moment, they're both totally unproven as a starting NHL goalie.
Yes but the reality of this league right now is that goaltending in general is in a surplus and why you don't need to spend much on one. As long as Nemo is on his current deal, he's fine to keep but if he has another season like this one, he very well could command 5 or more million on the open market and there is no way in hell I'd pay any goalie that much money in a cap system.

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04-17-2013, 01:20 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Yes but the reality of this league right now is that goaltending in general is in a surplus and why you don't need to spend much on one. As long as Nemo is on his current deal, he's fine to keep but if he has another season like this one, he very well could command 5 or more million on the open market and there is no way in hell I'd pay any goalie that much money in a cap system.
Wings just gave Howard 5.3 mil and I don't think they're wrong.

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04-17-2013, 01:23 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Wings just gave Howard 5.3 mil and I don't think they're wrong.
If that's what they want to do, more power to them. I think cap money is better used with the skaters more than the goalies. Goalies are still mostly byproducts of the team in front of them to the point that if you have a good enough team, it doesn't matter much who your goalie is relative to who your options are.

And if Niemi finishes this season and next season like he is at now, he's getting more than that.

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04-17-2013, 01:24 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If that's what they want to do, more power to them. I think cap money is better used with the skaters more than the goalies. Goalies are still mostly byproducts of the team in front of them to the point that if you have a good enough team, it doesn't matter much who your goalie is relative to who your options are.

And if Niemi finishes this season and next season like he is at now, he's getting more than that.
I think Niemi and Quick both disproved that tonight.

It's only partially true if you have a defense in front of them like the BH's SC team and that's still debatable. I've always contended Niemi had more to do with that than people gave him credit for.

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04-17-2013, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I think Niemi and Quick both disproved that tonight.
Yes because general statements are disproved on one night. Come on. Any goalie is capable of that kind of performance on any given night.

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04-17-2013, 01:25 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Wings just gave Howard 5.3 mil and I don't think they're wrong.
I think you're right 5 mil for a good starting goaltender is a good price. We lucked out on Niemi getting better and being worth more than the 3.8 mil the Sharks got for him. I remember when people were rightfully lamenting it right after he got that contract extension but he's definitely earned that contract since then.

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04-17-2013, 01:27 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Yes because general statements are disproved on one night. Come on. Any goalie is capable of that kind of performance on any given night.
Read the edited post and I think tonight was an example that proves the rule. Come on............

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04-17-2013, 01:28 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
I think you're right 5 mil for a good starting goaltender is a good price. We lucked out on Niemi getting better and being worth more than the 3.8 mil the Sharks got for him. I remember when people were rightfully lamenting it right after he got that contract extension but he's definitely earned that contract since then.
Not me. I probably 2 other people kept defending Niemi last year. Of course we were still wrong because he's better this year, so we couldn't possibly have seen that he could be this good

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04-17-2013, 01:35 AM
  #36
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Read the edited post and I think tonight was an example that proves the rule. Come on............
What rule? You look at the top guys in save percentage in the league and there aren't many over the .920 mark making over 4 mil.

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04-17-2013, 01:50 AM
  #37
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What rule? You look at the top guys in save percentage in the league and there aren't many over the .920 mark making over 4 mil.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Some are on first contracts. Some do have excellent D in front of them. Some of them are keeping their teams in it despite their D. That's why we watch the games.

I thought you said it all depends on the D in front of them? Do they all have the same quality D? If not then that number means nothing in your world in addition to what I noted above.

Personally I think it's a combination of both and why Niemi didn't look as good consistently last year. This year he has a better D in front of him and he's playing above his level last year. They do kind of go hand in hand as they play off each others confidence, but that's something else entirely.

Bottom line, we've got Niemi on a killer deal right now despite the consternation going on around here after he got the contract and I suspect the same will go down next time if we keep him. Sometimes all players under perform their contract and sometimes they over perform. Them's the breaks. You just have to be right enough for it to even out.

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04-17-2013, 02:09 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Some are on first contracts. Some do have excellent D in front of them. Some of them are keeping their teams in it despite their D. That's why we watch the games.

I thought you said it all depends on the D in front of them? Do they all have the same quality D? If not then that number means nothing in your world in addition to what I noted above.

Personally I think it's a combination of both and why Niemi didn't look as good consistently last year. This year he has a better D in front of him and he's playing above his level last year. They do kind of go hand in hand as they play off each others confidence, but that's something else entirely.

Bottom line, we've got Niemi on a killer deal right now despite the consternation going on around here after he got the contract and I suspect the same will go down next time if we keep him. Sometimes all players under perform their contract and sometimes they over perform. Them's the breaks. You just have to be right enough for it to even out.
Plus he came in healthy and in good shape. Apparently has his own Finnish goalie coach.

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04-17-2013, 02:19 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If that's what they want to do, more power to them. I think cap money is better used with the skaters more than the goalies. Goalies are still mostly byproducts of the team in front of them to the point that if you have a good enough team, it doesn't matter much who your goalie is relative to who your options are.

And if Niemi finishes this season and next season like he is at now, he's getting more than that.
This is true and not true. Goalies play to systems. Systems play to goalies. Goalies themselves are not interchangeable.

If the Sharks traded Niemi, they'd have to bank on the replacement goalie fitting the system or on the team being able to change the system to fit the goalie. Teams also play differently when they have a low quality goalie in net; they take fewer chances, etc.

When the goalie doesn't fit, it can cause the season to tank. See the Kipper in SJ in 2002.

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04-17-2013, 02:48 AM
  #40
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I don't think Nemo is Vezina caliber (top 3). His athleticism is that poor. His puckhandling is atrocious. He is stylistically unique which throws a curve at other teams. Unique way of exposing and closing five hole which cuts rebounds. At some point they solve it.

I do think he improved. He is remaining more upright which means he is less vulnerable to high shots. He is calmer in net, but he does not track well. When he loses the puck, his first instinct is to freeze and the whole team plays it that way (cover the backdoor with the weakside defender close to the net). They have been extra careful about low cross ice which keeps opponents from exposing his lack of athleticism. That is good integration of team and goalie and it is the defense of the forwards most of all that is preventing that low cross ice (it sacrifices offense). I think he is playing at the top of his game and he is not losing focus as easily as he has after a long stretch in the past. I do think he is top 10 and his contract is a bargain. I do think he has optimized his assets this year.

I don't think it bodes well for any team to lean as heavily on a goalie as TM has on Nemo this year in an 82 game season. This isn't an 82 game season so he may get a false sense of security. It is begging for a loss of focus and a goalie breakdown in the playoffs to play goalies for more than 65 games. I don't think the Sharks will be kind to any developing goalie as long as TM is the coach unless it is forced on TM by giving him two unproven or subpar goalies. That doesn't bode well for Greiss, Stalock, Sateri or anyone else that comes through the Sharks system as it is.

Most goalies with long careers earn their credentials by protracted injury or extended subpar play by a starter. Otherwise, they don't even get prolonged careers as backups and disappear from the league. They all need extended NHL starting time at some point relatively early in their careers. There are a very few touted goalies that are gifted the job with little competition (Price, Fleury . . .).

I don't think Greiss has ever been given a fair chance (10 games running or something like 8 of 10), but that is neither here nor there except to deny those who would say that he hasn't looked good in his chances. He hasn't been given a real chance. And I don't think Stalock, Sateri, et al will get a real chance with the Sharks.

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04-17-2013, 04:01 AM
  #41
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I didn't know Vezina was a trophy for the most athletic goalie. I thought stats were important...

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04-17-2013, 04:27 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If that's what they want to do, more power to them. I think cap money is better used with the skaters more than the goalies. Goalies are still mostly byproducts of the team in front of them to the point that if you have a good enough team, it doesn't matter much who your goalie is relative to who your options are.
this is just frickin wrong dude... Yeah a great defense can help a goalie but bad goalies don't last long. Goalie is absolutely the most important position on the ice and I have no issue paying for a dominant one. Nemo's been spectacular this year AND the defense improved which accounts for the improved team goals against. His save percentage is great though which speaks more to his play than the teams IMO.

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04-17-2013, 04:32 AM
  #43
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I didn't know Vezina was a trophy for the most athletic goalie. I thought stats were important...
Of course it is! That's why the little goalie on the trophy is doing the splits while twirling a flaming baton!

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04-17-2013, 05:00 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I don't think Nemo is Vezina caliber (top 3). His athleticism is that poor. His puckhandling is atrocious. He is stylistically unique which throws a curve at other teams. Unique way of exposing and closing five hole which cuts rebounds. At some point they solve it.
You could probably come up with something similar to say about Hasek's goaltending style.

Point is that, in the case for a Vezina, numbers don't lie.

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04-17-2013, 06:02 AM
  #45
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You know, Tim Thomas was amazing but he was only amazing because his defense really helped him out. The way he plays puts him far out of his net to challenge the shooter. However, it also made it so that after the save. There was a lot of empty space and empty net for rebound chances that could have easily been a goal if his defense wasn't there to clear the puck.

A goalie doesn't succeed just because of a system or because of his team. A team succeeds because of the goalie and the team being able to work together because of a system. We can especially see it with Niemi because over the last 3 years, the defense has changed significantly with the addition of Burns and Stuart and the subtraction of White and Murray, the team system has changed especially with the PK, and there's also the way the team plays in front of different goalies. I remember there were quotes from Murray about how they would let players take clear shots because Nabby would rather be able to see the shot all the way but now the team blocks a ton of shots for Niemi but it wasn't like that when he first got here.

The point is that Niemi fits the team we have now and if we trade him now, we're going to have a pretty tough period ahead of us. In my opinion, they have Stalock as the future of the Sharks goaltending and they're still trying to compete for the cup. When Stalock was up here, he didn't start because of the tenuous position we were in. Whether that was the right decision or not remains to be seen but I'm sure he will get his chance soon.

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04-17-2013, 08:45 AM
  #46
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What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Some are on first contracts. Some do have excellent D in front of them. Some of them are keeping their teams in it despite their D. That's why we watch the games.

I thought you said it all depends on the D in front of them? Do they all have the same quality D? If not then that number means nothing in your world in addition to what I noted above.

Personally I think it's a combination of both and why Niemi didn't look as good consistently last year. This year he has a better D in front of him and he's playing above his level last year. They do kind of go hand in hand as they play off each others confidence, but that's something else entirely.

Bottom line, we've got Niemi on a killer deal right now despite the consternation going on around here after he got the contract and I suspect the same will go down next time if we keep him. Sometimes all players under perform their contract and sometimes they over perform. Them's the breaks. You just have to be right enough for it to even out.
You're only proving my point with it. Some are on first contracts so obviously that means someone with limited experience can put up quality numbers with their team. The point isn't that goalies are wholly dependent on the team in front of them for how they look. The point is that with a surplus, a lot of goalies can look good in the right place for a good price. When you start paying 5 mil or more for a goalie when there are plenty of examples like Mike Smith who have the talent of a high level goalie or goalies who look bad elsewhere and get a shot in something more their style like Bobrovsky, you can see results w/o spending a lot on the position. And the money you save spending on the position can be utilized making the team in front of the goalie better.

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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
This is true and not true. Goalies play to systems. Systems play to goalies. Goalies themselves are not interchangeable.

If the Sharks traded Niemi, they'd have to bank on the replacement goalie fitting the system or on the team being able to change the system to fit the goalie. Teams also play differently when they have a low quality goalie in net; they take fewer chances, etc.

When the goalie doesn't fit, it can cause the season to tank. See the Kipper in SJ in 2002.
2002 had one of the worst groups of defensemen put on one of the worst performances I've ever seen from this team. That doesn't speak to the goalie and even if it did, it's a completely different environment because that was pre-cap hockey. That doesn't apply anymore.

And the whole bit about taking less chances with a 'bad goalie' in net isn't necessarily true either. Philly has been taking offensive chances for years with questionable goaltending. Chicago has done the same.

Goalies aren't interchangeable to the point that you can put any goalie in any system and have it work. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can slap any goalie and get them to put up good quality performances if you play to his strengths and that there are a lot of goalies that can play at this level to do that with w/o spending a lot of cap space. And the space you save doing that can be used up front to get more depth.

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this is just frickin wrong dude... Yeah a great defense can help a goalie but bad goalies don't last long. Goalie is absolutely the most important position on the ice and I have no issue paying for a dominant one. Nemo's been spectacular this year AND the defense improved which accounts for the improved team goals against. His save percentage is great though which speaks more to his play than the teams IMO.
In the context of an individual game, it is the most important position on the ice. In the context of what is available at the position as an option and how much you have to spend to get a quality goalie perform well, it is the least important position. It's really simple. There is a surplus of good goalies and the cost to get one is not expensive. There's no need to spend 5+ million on a goalie which is likely Nemo's next contract. It's easier to find a starting goalie that will work for your team than it is to get a defenseman or forward of a quality level.

People were complaining a lot about Nabokov's contract and how it was too much and now people seem to be very willing to give Niemi the same thing causing the same problem...taking depth away from elsewhere because they're overspending on the position.

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04-17-2013, 09:15 AM
  #47
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FeedingFrenzy: Shipping out 3.8mil and getting picks/prospects back for as you put it "an above avg goalie" is a great reason is it not?? More flexibility.Stalock is our top/best prospect..
There are elite goalies, above average goalies, average, etc. Niemi is outplaying his contract, he has since he signed it. So no, moving a #1 goalie for futures is a horrible idea and that $3mil that the team may save on goaltending isn't enough to get any kind of player that will have as much of an impact on the team as Niemi.

To whoever said that the goalies w/ SP over .920 aren't making money, if you're looking at it only this season you're doing it wrong. Go back the last couple of years and the top goalies are Rinne, Lundqvist, Thomas, Luongo, Ward, Price...Schneider and Rask are joining that group - the only one making under $4 mil is Rask and that will change this offseason.

I'd also really like to know what it is you see in Stalock that says he's ready to be a #1 goalie? Or find me a team that has, not even Cup aspirations but playoff aspirations that traded a very good starting goalie to hand the team over to a player with less then 2 periods of NHL play.

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04-17-2013, 09:41 AM
  #48
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It was only 12 games ago this fan base was ready to blow up the team..Our CAP situation and lack of a TOP6 winger and 3 scoring lines was the raging topics on these boards. I like Nemo, he does his job most nights.. I also realize that Stalock is a pretty good young goalie...So let me get this straight, Alex cant make saves but Nemo can?? His inexperience will haunt us?? BS..

Why should Stalock have to wait for Nemo to get hurt to for his chance?? Giving him 10-13 games a year as backup is going to improve his play?? The org. should show some confidence in him and give him that opportunity to start. He's been a Shark for sometime now, its not like he is an unknown. We know what Stalock is capable of..

We have some good young D in the pipeline, G as well. Again, freeing up 3.8mil is a good thing..Nemo is a HUGE bargaining chip this summer. Philly,NJ,Cal,Tor to name but a few..

I am just suggesting avenues that should be explored..I would be ok with moving Havlat as well.

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04-17-2013, 09:50 AM
  #49
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It was only 12 games ago this fan base was ready to blow up the team..Our CAP situation and lack of a TOP6 winger and 3 scoring lines was the raging topics on these boards. I like Nemo, he does his job most nights.. I also realize that Stalock is a pretty good young goalie...So let me get this straight, Alex cant make saves but Nemo can?? His inexperience will haunt us?? BS..

Why should Stalock have to wait for Nemo to get hurt to for his chance?? Giving him 10-13 games a year as backup is going to improve his play?? The org. should show some confidence in him and give him that opportunity to start. He's been a Shark for sometime now, its not like he is an unknown. We know what Stalock is capable of..

We have some good young D in the pipeline, G as well. Again, freeing up 3.8mil is a good thing..Nemo is a HUGE bargaining chip this summer. Philly,NJ,Cal,Tor to name but a few..

I am just suggesting avenues that should be explored..I would be ok with moving Havlat as well.
I didn't realize that trading Niemi was in reference to the bolded...I am not one of those fans. If DW decides to blow up the team, sure, go with a rookie goalie.

Also, no one on these boards (outside of the ones that actually watch him play on a regular basis or if there are any actual scouts here) know what Stalock is capable of at the NHL level.

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04-17-2013, 09:53 AM
  #50
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There are elite goalies, above average goalies, average, etc. Niemi is outplaying his contract, he has since he signed it. So no, moving a #1 goalie for futures is a horrible idea and that $3mil that the team may save on goaltending isn't enough to get any kind of player that will have as much of an impact on the team as Niemi.

To whoever said that the goalies w/ SP over .920 aren't making money, if you're looking at it only this season you're doing it wrong. Go back the last couple of years and the top goalies are Rinne, Lundqvist, Thomas, Luongo, Ward, Price...Schneider and Rask are joining that group - the only one making under $4 mil is Rask and that will change this offseason.

I'd also really like to know what it is you see in Stalock that says he's ready to be a #1 goalie? Or find me a team that has, not even Cup aspirations but playoff aspirations that traded a very good starting goalie to hand the team over to a player with less then 2 periods of NHL play.
My suggestions again are based on the Sharks doing a mini-rebuild on the fly. Teams in the past have started rookie goalies to start a season...

Never said it had to be futures,could be a current player coming back.

I remember the game Stalock played for the Sharks just before his injury, kid looked good, confident,better glove than Nemo, better control..

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