HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

David Desharnais - Black or White Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-16-2013, 09:09 PM
  #951
One Man Rock Band
Slater's Gonna Slate
 
One Man Rock Band's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Habville
Country: Canada
Posts: 43,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I've been saying that since forever... Galchenyuk would be the front runner for the Calder now ...
It's so crazy watching you post.

You're so against Desharnais but so in love with Price. Two complete opposite ends of the spectrum on two struggling players.

One Man Rock Band is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 09:09 PM
  #952
macavoy
Registered User
 
macavoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,460
vCash: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB View Post
Yes for sure. He doesn't play in the power play and has one point less than Desharnais. Pathetic.
Sample size, only 2 weeks ago Galenchyuk was pretty dismal himself. Everyone agrees that Galenchyuk and Eller are playing better lately and deserve more time than DD but the reality of life is there is a pecking order and time is given partially based on long term proven attributes. DD is slightly more proven than Eller and Galenchyuk, if Eller and Galenchyuk keep it up, over time, they will be given the benefit of doubt.

I'm not giving my 9 year old the same responsibilities as my 14 year old even though she can have one single ball game better. But overtime, she can prove, she can handle more reaponsibilities if she can prove she can consistently handle it. You need a mix of giving them more and sheltering them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamwork View Post
I don't understand why some think that Desharnais is more ready to play centre on the powerplay than Galchenyuk. I mean, it's clearly not working at the moment. So why not give the chance to an elusive player that has the potential of blowing us all away, such as Galchenyuk or Eller.
I don't understand why people can't read, I just re read this page and everyone was saying Galenchyuk deserves more ice time. I seem one person defend DD and even he said Galenchyuk deserves more ice time.

macavoy is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 09:15 PM
  #953
InglewoodJack
Registered User
 
InglewoodJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Châteauguay
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,977
vCash: 1340
Quote:
Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Ya right.. just like the Rangers heh?

This year the Habs did not have any injuries to core players. Who says that's so next year?
This year was a shortened season. Next year our smaller players will need to go 82 games.

I guess the 1986 habs, with 8 rookies in the lineup should have not bothered showing up to play the playoffs that year.
It's a shame really.
Huh? are you implying that smaller players are more fragile or have less durabilities?

Seriously, this fixation with the team being "small" has to stop, because usually idiotic rhetoric that's simply regurgitated without putting any thought into it.

Only an idiot would think that this is the year. Any great team nips at the playoffs before winning the cup. No teams go from last to first in a year.

InglewoodJack is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 09:59 PM
  #954
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,270
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Boston can't have Bergeron injured. And I doubt they can have Chara injured.
Hawks can't have one of their two C injured for a long period of time.
The only team that can stay good with their core players going down is Pittsburgh.
I'm not sure I'm following your point. I'm responding to a post suggesting this is the year to go for it because this team won't be good if it has any injuries to the core. Good teams can still be good with injuries. Boston is only 1 point away and missing 2/3 of their 1st line.

As for the Hawks, Marian Hossa? Patrick Sharp? 77 and 69 points respectively last season as their top 2 scorers in a season they finished with over 100 pts despite missing Toews for 30ish games?

Canucks had Kesler out for the whole year and still on pace for a 100+ season.

If they are bad next season, Bergevin was wise to not to put icing on this turd cake and finding out after tasting it. If the Habs are contenders, they will be good next season and have the capability to handle injuries and hold the fort until they return. I'm sure he'll start going for it then. It'd be like being 100% it's chocolate cake before putting icing and eating it.

Watsatheo is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 10:09 PM
  #955
NHLFutureGuy3
Registered User
 
NHLFutureGuy3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 449
vCash: 500
This is the quite the tangent you guys are getting into. For the record it doesn't bother me.

NHLFutureGuy3 is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 10:39 PM
  #956
VAN-HAB
Vancouver Habitant
 
VAN-HAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Port Moody BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,960
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Sample size, only 2 weeks ago Galenchyuk was pretty dismal himself. Everyone agrees that Galenchyuk and Eller are playing better lately and deserve more time than DD but the reality of life is there is a pecking order and time is given partially based on long term proven attributes. DD is slightly more proven than Eller and Galenchyuk, if Eller and Galenchyuk keep it up, over time, they will be given the benefit of doubt.

I'm not giving my 9 year old the same responsibilities as my 14 year old even though she can have one single ball game better. But overtime, she can prove, she can handle more reaponsibilities if she can prove she can consistently handle it. You need a mix of giving them more and sheltering them.



I don't understand why people can't read, I just re read this page and everyone was saying Galenchyuk deserves more ice time. I seem one person defend DD and even he said Galenchyuk deserves more ice time.
Desharnais 24 points
Galchenyuk 22 points

Enough said

VAN-HAB is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 10:47 PM
  #957
DAChampion
Registered User
 
DAChampion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Country: Australia
Posts: 6,463
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
Huh? are you implying that smaller players are more fragile or have less durabilities?

Seriously, this fixation with the team being "small" has to stop, because usually idiotic rhetoric that's simply regurgitated without putting any thought into it.

Only an idiot would think that this is the year. Any great team nips at the playoffs before winning the cup. No teams go from last to first in a year.
Which is just a case of small number statistics.

DAChampion is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 10:58 PM
  #958
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB View Post
Desharnais 24 points
Galchenyuk 22 points

Enough said
Eller 22 points
Gallagher 22 points

...enough said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Which is just a case of small number statistics.
Limited sample size yes, but surprisingly consistent, until the past week. I don't think this team is as good as its record, but neither is looking at last years team in a bubble.

Et le But is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 10:59 PM
  #959
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Eller 22 points
Gallagher 22 points

...enough said?
well, you're kind of proving his point, don't know if it was the intention though.

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:03 PM
  #960
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well, you're kind of proving his point, don't know if it was the intention though.
I'm not sure what his point, unless it's that we have a lot of secondary scoring including Desharnais.

Et le But is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:05 PM
  #961
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm not sure what his point, unless it's that we have a lot of secondary scoring including Desharnais.
I'd guess that it's something along the lines of : DD isnt any better than Galchenyuk or Eller, therefore there isnt much of a reason to play him ahead of the two kids

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:11 PM
  #962
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'd guess that it's something along the lines of : DD isnt any better than Galchenyuk or Eller, therefore there isnt much of a reason to play him ahead of the two kids
Eller is our second best two-way C behing Plekanec, and if anything is a victim of that, and hasn't really proven he's offensively a step up. His time on the top 6 this year has been mixed, to say the least.

Galchenyuk is 19. What is the obsession with rushing a 19 year old into greater responsibilities? To pad his stats? He's been plenty inconsistent himself.

The fact that Desharnais isn't any better than those two doesn't really take away from his role, for now. I don't understand the extension since I don't think he has a future on this team, but in the short term, banishing DD does nothing to help us so we might as well try to figure out a way to get him to produce more.

Et le But is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:17 PM
  #963
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 15,210
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Eller is our second best two-way C behing Plekanec, and if anything is a victim of that, and hasn't really proven he's offensively a step up. His time on the top 6 this year has been mixed, to say the least.

Galchenyuk is 19. What is the obsession with rushing a 19 year old into greater responsibilities? To pad his stats? He's been plenty inconsistent himself.

The fact that Desharnais isn't any better than those two doesn't really take away from his role, for now. I don't understand the extension since I don't think he has a future on this team, but in the short term, banishing DD does nothing to help us so we might as well try to figure out a way to get him to produce more.
rushing him ? come on... how about just increasing his ice time a little while he's hot at the moment ? that would be a start.

don't think playing Galchenyuk closer to 15 min a game would be rushing him, at all.

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:19 PM
  #964
VAN-HAB
Vancouver Habitant
 
VAN-HAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Port Moody BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,960
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I'd guess that it's something along the lines of : DD isnt any better than Galchenyuk or Eller, therefore there isnt much of a reason to play him ahead of the two kids
You got it!
I don't understand how is so hard to see that with limited ice time compare with Desharnais he has almost as many points.
Desharnais doesn't deserve his ice time ( a lot more than Galcenyuk)...he is useless right now.
Desharnais is not just NOT BETTER than Galchenyuk, he is a lot worse.

VAN-HAB is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:23 PM
  #965
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
rushing him ? come on... how about just increasing his ice time a little while he's hot at the moment ? that would be a start.

don't think playing Galchenyuk closer to 15 min a game would be rushing him, at all.
At this point, why not? But there's a reason we got to this point.

And Galchenyuk as the sheltered line C means playing Desharnais as a winger, which is apparently against the rules or something. Like it or not, Desharnais isn't getting dropped. That's a fact everyone has got to face.

What makes this funny is two weeks ago Habs fans were freaking out that Galchenyuk wasn't producing.

Et le But is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:26 PM
  #966
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,270
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Eller is our second best two-way C behing Plekanec, and if anything is a victim of that, and hasn't really proven he's offensively a step up. His time on the top 6 this year has been mixed, to say the least.

Galchenyuk is 19. What is the obsession with rushing a 19 year old into greater responsibilities? To pad his stats? He's been plenty inconsistent himself.

The fact that Desharnais isn't any better than those two doesn't really take away from his role, for now. I don't understand the extension since I don't think he has a future on this team, but in the short term, banishing DD does nothing to help us so we might as well try to figure out a way to get him to produce more.
Habs have one of the highest powerplay shooting % in the league and rely heavily on Subban/Markov. The penalty killers almost completely ignore the forwards down low now and it mostly works - see Gallagher's goal vs PHI for ridiculous point over-coverage:



What's the harm in Galchenyuk/Eller getting a regular PP shift to give them experience with extra space and risk them doing nothing with it than have DD get all the PP icetime and continue what he's doing with it.

Watsatheo is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:30 PM
  #967
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 17,643
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Habs have one of the highest powerplay shooting % in the league and rely heavily on Subban/Markov. The penalty killers almost completely ignore the forwards down low now and it mostly works - see Gallagher's goal vs PHI for ridiculous point over-coverage:



What's the harm in Galchenyuk/Eller getting a regular PP shift to give them experience with extra space and risk them doing nothing with it than have DD get all the PP icetime and continue what he's doing with it.
I agree with this, and it's one reason the first step is to break up Pacioretty and Desharnais - because as long as they are chained to the hip, it seems like it's all or nothing on the PP.

But the fact is DD's production is coming from even strength (much as Galchenyuk's is), and there it's comparable to Eller/Gally's...and we have to accept that he's going to be the center on the exploitation line, because as long as he only plays center he can't be used anywhere else.

Et le But is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:31 PM
  #968
NHLFutureGuy3
Registered User
 
NHLFutureGuy3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post

What makes this funny is two weeks ago Habs fans were freaking out that Galchenyuk wasn't producing.
Nobody was 'freaking out' about galchenyuk. We all wanted more production but no one was worried that he wouldn't eventually start producing. I actually thought he would be producing like this next year so he is ahead of schedule for me.

NHLFutureGuy3 is offline  
Old
04-16-2013, 11:41 PM
  #969
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,270
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I agree with this, and it's one reason the first step is to break up Pacioretty and Desharnais - because as long as they are chained to the hip, it seems like it's all or nothing on the PP.

But the fact is DD's production is coming from even strength (much as Galchenyuk's is), and there it's comparable to Eller/Gally's...and we have to accept that he's going to be the center on the exploitation line, because as long as he only plays center he can't be used anywhere else.

Galchenyuk
5 on 5 Corsi Rel QoC = 0.630
5 on 5 GF On/60 min = 3.21
5 on 5 Pts/60 min = 2.57

Desharnais
5 on 5 Corsi Rel QoC = (0.082)
5 on 5 GF On/60 min = 3.18
5 on 5 Pts/60 min = 2.08

Eller
5 on 5 Corsi Rel QoC = 0.893
5 on 5 GF On/60 min = 2.46
5 on 5 Pts/60 min = 2.09

The kid is already producing top end even strength with tough competition (sample size obviously too small to extrapolate over an 82 game season). Might be sooner than later that Galchenyuk forces himself to a bigger role...if DD is safe it'd be at the expense of a soon to be expiring contract Eller.

Watsatheo is offline  
Old
04-17-2013, 12:30 AM
  #970
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,136
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
Ok I don't remember you ever agreeing with me that he needs to be demoted. If you did, then I'm glad we agree somewhere when it comes to Desharnais. So based on how you have seen him play all season, on which line do you see Desharnais? How many 5 on 5 minutes do you think he should get? Do you think Galchenyuk should be taking his powerplay time? What would be your solution right now?

Also, do you still think he deserved the amount for his contract? Do you think it should have been for four years? Do you think this decision to give him a contract was made hastily?
#1 I said it multiple times. I care about the habs, not Desharnais. It does not mean I see him as useless. That's the difference.

I think Desharnais should get the minutes he earns. I am not opposed to benching him to light a fire under him. He'll figure it out. He's shown better and he's capable of better. I want the team to succeed and I feel he can be a positive for the team.

I am not opposed to Galchenyuk or Eller taking his PP time. That being said, they'd need to produce as well. I put them on same standards. If Eller goes and doesn't do anything then I expect everyone to have similar response...although I honestly doubt we'll see anything of the sort.

Either way, again, it's for the habs. They should do whatever is best for the habs.

I think he deserved his contract and is not overpaid. IMO the term and price are related. I feel after a 60 point season DD could've asked for more money(especially if he wasn't slumping! Back to back years of 60 points would be expensive!). I believe he got slightly less but got term in return. I also feel his teammates like max probably wanted this deal. I have zero concerns about the contract now or in the future. It does not ruin the team nor is he overpaid. I think at certain point he will appear underpaid but this isn't one of them.

Simply put, he needs to be better because we've seen better from him. He can still be a useful piece on our team but for the good of the team I would hope he learns some wing or something because although center is his natural position it is also the same for others. He's center now but it's up to him to become versatile(maybe he already is, don't know, rarely tested on wing).

Essentially, he can be a good piece going forward but constant improvement is necessary for all our players. If we want to be contenders everyone has to be working hard over the summer and keeping their eyes open during the season. I think DD has done that but he has more to give IMO and has yet to do so.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Old
04-17-2013, 04:31 AM
  #971
macavoy
Registered User
 
macavoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,460
vCash: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN-HAB View Post
Desharnais 24 points
Galchenyuk 22 points

Enough said
I don't understand your response to my post. You agree with what I said?

macavoy is offline  
Old
04-17-2013, 05:58 AM
  #972
NHLFutureGuy3
Registered User
 
NHLFutureGuy3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
#1 I said it multiple times. I care about the habs, not Desharnais. It does not mean I see him as useless. That's the difference.
Yup it's true that you said it many times that his powerplay time should be reduced. We can agree on this point. I do think he is useless when he is not producing though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I think Desharnais should get the minutes he earns. I am not opposed to benching him to light a fire under him. He'll figure it out. He's shown better and he's capable of better. I want the team to succeed and I feel he can be a positive for the team.
Why hasn't Therrien benched Desharnais then? Why does he get rewarded with the most ice time amongst all forwards against the Flyers? I'm going to use my previous word... baffling isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I think he deserved his contract and is not overpaid. IMO the term and price are related. I feel after a 60 point season DD could've asked for more money(especially if he wasn't slumping! Back to back years of 60 points would be expensive!). I believe he got slightly less but got term in return. I also feel his teammates like max probably wanted this deal. I have zero concerns about the contract now or in the future. It does not ruin the team nor is he overpaid. I think at certain point he will appear underpaid but this isn't one of them.
Ok we definitely disagree there. He had one 60 point season. Everyone, including me, was applauding the way he played. But why did they hardball Subban and not him? I know you think 3.5/year over four years is a bargain for someone who has gotten 60 points but the reason why it's fair is because he doesn't bring anything else to the table. He is not physical, he is not great defensively, he's not even extremely fast, so when he is slumping he is not worth much to the team and his salary reflects this. If we had waited till the end of the season and he had another equally good season, the most we would have had to pay him was 4/year instead of 3.5 using the reasoning that he shouldn't get Plekanec type money because he doesn't play as well defensively as Plekanec. To make matters worse, he has been bad all season when we signed him. Why didn't we just wait until the season was over or at least midway through the season to see if last season was just a Jason Blake style fluke? I find it baffling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Simply put, he needs to be better because we've seen better from him. He can still be a useful piece on our team but for the good of the team I would hope he learns some wing or something because although center is his natural position it is also the same for others. He's center now but it's up to him to become versatile(maybe he already is, don't know, rarely tested on wing).
It's very unlikely he would succeed at wing. His strength is his passing which is the best for the center position. But hey, I would try anything to change things up right now because he can't be doing much worse.


Last edited by NHLFutureGuy3: 04-17-2013 at 08:41 AM.
NHLFutureGuy3 is offline  
Old
04-17-2013, 07:30 AM
  #973
WeThreeKings
Registered User
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 33,155
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
I don't see the harm in trying Galchenyuk with Pacioretty on the PP for a game or two.

WeThreeKings is online now  
Old
04-17-2013, 01:29 PM
  #974
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,136
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
Yup it's true that you said it many times that his powerplay time should be reduced. We can agree on this point. I do think he is useless when he is not producing though.
I'm honestly surprised you didn't notice. A lot of DD supporters have said it. BTW saying supporters is a very strange thing because I'm not really a fanboy, I don't care if he plays 3rd line or 1st line, whatever helps the team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
Why hasn't Therrien benched Desharnais then? Why does he get rewarded with the most ice time amongst all forwards against the Flyers? I'm going to use my previous word... baffling isn't it?
An offensive line will get more ice time during a loss. It's normal. You wouldn't send your checkers out to tie the game would you?

I also think Therrien is reluctant to change lineups in final stretch. If we had 82 games the lines would be changed but so close to playoffs I think he's reluctant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
Ok we definitely disagree there. He had one 60 point season. Everyone, including me, was applauding the way he played. But why did they hardball Subban and not him? I know you think 3.5/year over four years is a bargain for someone who has gotten 60 points but the reason why it's fair is because he doesn't bring anything else to the table. He is not physical, he is not great defensively, he's not even extremely fast, so when he is slumping he is not worth much to the team and his salary reflects this. If we had waited till the end of the season and he had another equally good season, the most we would have had to pay him was 4/year instead of 3.5 using the reasoning that he shouldn't get Plekanec type money because he doesn't play as well defensively as Plekanec. To make matters worse, he has been bad all season when we signed him. Why didn't we just wait until the season was over or at least midway through the season to see if last season was just a Jason Blake style fluke? I find it baffling.
Subban probably wanted 6 years or some other term. What many don't understand is it's also a motivational tactic. In regards to subban this situation humbled him and he's playing the best hockey of his life. Sometimes it goes beyond numbers.

As for Desharnais, we could've waited for sure but they chose not to. Like I said, maybe it was player's recommendation or it was something beyond the scope of statistics. Can I pinpoint what happened? Of course not, neither of us can but we can sit here and pretend everyone's a robot with a salary. Discussions, concerns and so on happen along the way.

Blake but 4 mil like 10 years ago. The relative cap is different. In 2007-2008 he signed a contract worth 4 per for 5 years. The cap then was 50.3 million. Blake got 7.95% of his team's cap that year. If we looked at even the REDUCED cap of next year Desharnais will take up 5.44% for one year less. It's hardly a concern for me.

That being said, I believe in Desharnais' hustle and game. He's no Gallagher in that department but he doesn't go floating around. Guy wants to make a difference and that is contagious. Is he saku in his prime? Nope. But he's a decent player. Not great, not elite but not 'absolute garbage' either.

We need more from him but I think he can bring it. I think they should mix up the lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLFutureGuy3 View Post
It's very unlikely he would succeed at wing. His strength is his passing which is the best for the center position. But hey, I would try anything to change things up right now because he can't be doing much worse.
Honestly, the idea is to try. So we'll see.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Old
04-17-2013, 01:55 PM
  #975
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,136
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
What it means is he's playing against mainly "third liners" and some fourth liners, whatever that means. It's not a science and it's something plenty of us have argued plenty of times when it comes to calling Eller a "third liner" or whether or not Plekanec is a "first liner" or not. What it does mean is the the type of players Desharnais & co. play against are the type that start in their own zone, which means they are expected to exert energy on defense more or at least as much as they do on offense. This includes everything from two way threats like Eller to defensive specialists to tweeners put there because nobody knows what else to do with them.

What that does mean is Desharnais does play against quality competition at times, including defenses that are difficult to break down. Which means Desharnais has to at least be above replacement level offensively to produce, which he clearly is. What it also means is that he can focus on the offensive side of things more exclusively than others on this team which makes his job easier in that regard. I'm sure you will agree that Desharnais doesn't have to fight for the puck as much as other centers on this team do. Would Plekanec and Eller be more productive offensively in Desharnais' role? Most likely. Would they be significantly more productive than Desharnais? This is debatable, in my opinion Plekanec would, but not to a significant degree. And having Plekanec get 60 points in a 2 way role is far more valuable than having him get 70 in a 1 way role.

And yes, sometimes "third lines" are more dangerous than "first lines". What we do mean though, is that if Therrien knows that the the opposing coach just put out what he thinks is their best or even second best offensive line, he's putting out Plekanec, and if not Plek, then Eller or maybe even Halpern in some situations.
If you admit Desharnais goes against strong defensive lineups and potentially weak offensive ones then it would be erroneous to suggest if Eller or someone else is put in the role they will succeed offensively. End of the day, I understand where you're coming from and the correlation but it's not a given. They may produce less. Who said Galchenyuk can handle going up defensively specialists? What makes a player like Eller suited for the position is he can defend and also contribute but the level of contribution may include a weaker defense he faces. Simply put, If DD faces top 2/4 defensive lines then one of Plekanec/Galchenyuk/Eller most likely don't so who is to say they can play better against those better defensive players?

IMO, it's merely the coach putting players to their strengths. If DD was put in Eller's role he does not have the defensive game to cause turnovers and send puck other way as often in order to create scoring chances versus a potential weaker defensive. However, in his current role he can focus on offense as you suggested. In the case of Eller, he can get those turnovers and send it to the other way and create chances but like DD, perhaps versus stronger defensive line-ups he can't get it past to make chances.

In addition, having offensive zone starts suggests you'll face a better faceoff man. Yet, we rarely hear Desharnais praised(too strong a word but you get idea) for that.

It is essentially what I meant earlier. The definition is subjective. Statistics can be used to say anything, it merely depends on what context you use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
No arguments here. I'm sure this argument could work in some cases (if Boullion is playing more than Subban, it's probably effecting our win/loss record), but in this thread it seems cherry picked.
It's a stat without context IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I agree completely, and if I use stats more than most, it's because I hate to see them butchered for someone's agenda. In this thread, stats are being cherry picked by a few extreme posters on both sides. There's nothing wrong with using stats to fit your argument though, especially when they show an obvious trend. But I'm at least trying to frame things within context.
Statistics in hockey aren't as good as say baseball. They are very raw and may paint a picture but they are not to be all of player evaluation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
QCOM is pretty useless without context. It's one of my favourite stats for comparisons though, as long as the comparisons are sane.
Again, we agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Let me put it this way with Corsi, Desharnais has the highest corsi of any center on this team this year; last year only Gomez and Dumont had higher. Eller and Plekanec have slightly negative corsi. As far as I'm concerned it's a useless measure by itself. However, for an "exploitation" role having negative corsi would be unacceptable. Desharnais doesn't have this problem, so there's nothing to dicuss here. I think possession stats are more important looking at the team as a whole though.

As far as shots go, it's possible to be effective being both a high volume, low accuracy shooter (Gionta made a career of this!) and a high accuracy opportunist shooter, but it's pretty obvious if you are outshooting the oppisition by a considerable amount you are more likely to win. This doesn't take into account goaltending though, which makes or breaks team. This picture sums it up far better than I can: http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...ide-to-fenwick Basically, teams with high possession are 3/4ths more successful in the playoffs (poor Sharks). Since 2008 the only team to win the cup with a sub-.500 Fenwick was the 2009 Pens, and that's only because of the poor start of the season under MT - they well over it after Bylsma took over.
I gotta look into this statistic more. Seems interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Last I checked PK's QOC is greater than DD's, as his his starts. His stats are skewed by his usage for the first few weeks after holding out - another problem with stats is that this season is distorted by the lockout, individual games can mess the numbers up. Therrien has been using PK in a harder and harder role as the season has gone on.
PK's QOC is -0.661. His rel QOC is 0.025. Diaz has 0.880 rel qoc, Emelin has 0.649 rel qoc. It goes on. Would we say Subban gets sheltered minutes and does not deserve the Norris talk? He starts in o-zone more than d-zone too.

My point is, if they were the hot topic then anyone can make an argument that for our top D he can't handle top competition. Would be a fallacy.


I'm sorry I didn't reply to this earlier, was a quality post Et le But.

LyricalLyricist is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.