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Stalock's future with the Sharks

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Old
04-17-2013, 10:58 AM
  #51
FeedingFrenzy
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I didn't realize that trading Niemi was in reference to the bolded...I am not one of those fans. If DW decides to blow up the team, sure, go with a rookie goalie.

Also, no one on these boards (outside of the ones that actually watch him play on a regular basis or if there are any actual scouts here) know what Stalock is capable of at the NHL level.
Correct me if I am wrong but dont the scouts think Stalock is pretty good?

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04-17-2013, 11:00 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
My suggestions again are based on the Sharks doing a mini-rebuild on the fly. Teams in the past have started rookie goalies to start a season...

Never said it had to be futures,could be a current player coming back.

I remember the game Stalock played for the Sharks just before his injury, kid looked good, confident,better glove than Nemo, better control..
Stalock has a couple things going for him. He's highly athletic, a high end puck handler, and most of all he has an incredible attitude and work ethic (but so does Niemi, maybe the best in the league goalie wise). That doesn't mean he'll be a top #1 goalie in the NHL or anything, he is a little undersized, but he has a chance. That said, without a more thorough rebuild, I don't think you risk your season on an unproven guy. If you want Stalock to get more of a shot next season, it's simple, the coaches need to put him in more games. If the Sharks plan to contend next season, then fine, other than that, it's suicide.

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04-17-2013, 11:01 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
My suggestions again are based on the Sharks doing a mini-rebuild on the fly. Teams in the past have started rookie goalies to start a season...

Never said it had to be futures,could be a current player coming back.

I remember the game Stalock played for the Sharks just before his injury, kid looked good, confident,better glove than Nemo, better control..
So you're basing this on a game from 2 years ago and what, 25 minutes of game time?

There are people on these boards that have watched Stalock play for a long time and I'm guessing every one of them will tell you that giving him a starting job in the NHL (w/o having to anything to earn it) is a horrible idea.

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04-17-2013, 11:03 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but dont the scouts think Stalock is pretty good?
Not many of them...take a look at his career numbers and you'll see why.

Justin Goldman, who's opinion on goaltenders is pretty respected, is one of a few scouts who think Stalock has NHL upside. But there isn't a hockey person out there who would think it's a good idea to just give a goaltender a starting job for absolutely no reason at all.


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04-17-2013, 11:35 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
My suggestions again are based on the Sharks doing a mini-rebuild on the fly. Teams in the past have started rookie goalies to start a season...

Never said it had to be futures,could be a current player coming back.

I remember the game Stalock played for the Sharks just before his injury, kid looked good, confident,better glove than Nemo, better control..
For one game.

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04-17-2013, 11:48 AM
  #56
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Hi. Anttis 4th season, coming 30y. I think his glory days are coming latelary.

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04-17-2013, 11:49 AM
  #57
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Hi. Anttis 4th season, coming 30y. I think his glory days are coming latelary.
Goalies age well.

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04-17-2013, 11:56 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You're only proving my point with it. Some are on first contracts so obviously that means someone with limited experience can put up quality numbers with their team. The point isn't that goalies are wholly dependent on the team in front of them for how they look. The point is that with a surplus, a lot of goalies can look good in the right place for a good price.
I think that while this is true, it is bird in hand vs. two in the bush...

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And the whole bit about taking less chances with a 'bad goalie' in net isn't necessarily true either. Philly has been taking offensive chances for years with questionable goaltending. Chicago has done the same.
Interesting examples that you bring up. Philly for years has been trying to acquire a legit top goaltender. Look at how subpar goaltending sunk them in 2010. Chicago's SC team probably had the worst goaltending of any SC finalist in the last 10+ years...maybe you can include Osgood and Detroit, but Osgood's strengths fit Detroit very well.

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That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can slap any goalie and get them to put up good quality performances if you play to his strengths and that there are a lot of goalies that can play at this level to do that with w/o spending a lot of cap space. And the space you save doing that can be used up front to get more depth.
Fair points, but I wonder how easy it so to "play to a goaltender's strengths". There is that adjustment period.

The thing is, when goaltending fails, it can cost you miserably. Nabokov probably cost the Sharks a series win or two with his play in the postseason.

I wouldn't have issues with trading Niemi if he asked for 5+, even though at this level of play that is very fair market value. But at his current level of play and contract I take it just for piece of mind's sake.

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04-17-2013, 12:56 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
You know, Tim Thomas was amazing but he was only amazing because his defense really helped him out. The way he plays puts him far out of his net to challenge the shooter. However, it also made it so that after the save. There was a lot of empty space and empty net for rebound chances that could have easily been a goal if his defense wasn't there to clear the puck.

A goalie doesn't succeed just because of a system or because of his team. A team succeeds because of the goalie and the team being able to work together because of a system. We can especially see it with Niemi because over the last 3 years, the defense has changed significantly with the addition of Burns and Stuart and the subtraction of White and Murray, the team system has changed especially with the PK, and there's also the way the team plays in front of different goalies. I remember there were quotes from Murray about how they would let players take clear shots because Nabby would rather be able to see the shot all the way but now the team blocks a ton of shots for Niemi but it wasn't like that when he first got here.

The point is that Niemi fits the team we have now and if we trade him now, we're going to have a pretty tough period ahead of us. In my opinion, they have Stalock as the future of the Sharks goaltending and they're still trying to compete for the cup. When Stalock was up here, he didn't start because of the tenuous position we were in. Whether that was the right decision or not remains to be seen but I'm sure he will get his chance soon.
All very true, this team had a very painful adaptation period after acquiring niemi, but IMO it's significantly easier to revert back to a system that allows the goalie to play the puck more with less need for the defensemen to compensate for his shortcomings. Like SJeasy said - I don't necessarily see Niemi having become a better goalie skill wise, I see him not getting flustered as easily, and there's far fewer cross ice plays that would take advantage of his poor lateral mobility...that is due to the team in front of him changing their play. This whole team has been excellent defensively this season, but the question remains, with how they've struggled on offense through long periods of the year, how much more of an offensive threat would they be if there could be more quick transition up the ice rather than always having to collapse to the net as a team and then slowly breakout allowing the other team to be ready and waiting in the neutral zone.

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04-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #60
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I didn't know Vezina was a trophy for the most athletic goalie. I thought stats were important...
The Jennings is the stats trophy.

It isn't for athleticism. But, the athletes have a better shot at repeating. The Vezina is subjective and frequently subject to Canadian/East Coast bias. In terms of the knowledge about goaltending, it is interesting to note that non-Canadians are over-represented in goaltending in the NHL which says something about the knowledge behind the training in Canada. The gold star goes to the Finns.

IMO, a telling point will be who the Finns select for their Olympic goalie(s).

There has been a bit of a trend to go to the sumo wrestler theory of goaltending. Get the big guy no matter what and it isn't that bad, but I would much rather see guys who are both athletic and big get rewarded. A couple of non-athletic bigs have done well, Luongo and Bryz. They both have question marks and those question marks go back to their lack of athleticism and skills. Tampa hung their hat on the sumo theory and got burned badly this year.

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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
There are elite goalies, above average goalies, average, etc. Niemi is outplaying his contract, he has since he signed it. So no, moving a #1 goalie for futures is a horrible idea and that $3mil that the team may save on goaltending isn't enough to get any kind of player that will have as much of an impact on the team as Niemi.

To whoever said that the goalies w/ SP over .920 aren't making money, if you're looking at it only this season you're doing it wrong. Go back the last couple of years and the top goalies are Rinne, Lundqvist, Thomas, Luongo, Ward, Price...Schneider and Rask are joining that group - the only one making under $4 mil is Rask and that will change this offseason.

I'd also really like to know what it is you see in Stalock that says he's ready to be a #1 goalie? Or find me a team that has, not even Cup aspirations but playoff aspirations that traded a very good starting goalie to hand the team over to a player with less then 2 periods of NHL play.
Thanks for going over the top guys. I would add Miller to your list, my only quibble. Most of them would qualify for the athletic label.

While I don't think it is a good idea to go with someone who is untested, I don't think the coach should be blind to the need to both rest the starter and give good prospects reasonable opportunities. A couple of passes for bad games for youngsters should be part of that package. If you are going to forgive the starter for a poor performance, you should certainly do so for the backup.

For others,
On goalie/team integration, note that Philly acquired Bryz, a non-athlete. A disaster waiting to happen. Philly runs with a high risk/high reward system. They should be looking for the most athletic guy out there to face the number of odd-man's that they will give up.


Last edited by SJeasy: 04-17-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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04-17-2013, 02:40 PM
  #61
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with a very small sample size, im still a bit worried about stalock in the NHL. but that doesnt really mean anything lol.

you can say that weve put a system in front of niemi that exploits his strengths, but in reality, we get out chanced quite often, and niemi saves our *****. he has much improved his rebound control. i still absolutely HATE his play behind the net, but our play on the half boards in the D zone is just as bad, so it makes him look worse.

im good with niemi. i was dissapointed in him last year, but i can count his softies on one hand this year.

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04-17-2013, 02:51 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
with a very small sample size, im still a bit worried about stalock in the NHL. but that doesnt really mean anything lol.

you can say that weve put a system in front of niemi that exploits his strengths, but in reality, we get out chanced quite often, and niemi saves our *****. he has much improved his rebound control. i still absolutely HATE his play behind the net, but our play on the half boards in the D zone is just as bad, so it makes him look worse.

im good with niemi. i was dissapointed in him last year, but i can count his softies on one hand this year.
Nemo doesn't let in a lot of softies. He is very good on near post and always has been and he has been very good low. He has cut down on high shots between the defense and staying more upright when in the splits.

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04-17-2013, 03:03 PM
  #63
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Nemo doesn't let in a lot of softies. He is very good on near post and always has been and he has been very good low. He has cut down on high shots between the defense and staying more upright when in the splits.
The best thing with Niemi is his work ethic. Many sources now have said his dedication and work ethic are absolutely unmatched. The man went from running the zamboni to being a Vezina candidate in around 5 years, that doesn't happen without tremendous commitment. He keeps getting better, in every area, ever year. He's been amazingly consistent this season as well, which really is the most important attribute of a goalie.

Honestly I think the reason they don't give the other goalies more work has a lot to do with the fact that the players trust Niemi implicitly and win games simply because they don't have to worry about him. Stick Greiss or Stalock in there and the team starts second guessing the goalie.

The ONLY thing I can complain about with Niemi is his puck handling, and that's not really that abnormal. Plus, at the rate he's going, he'll work on that next and by next season be a premier puck handler too.

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04-17-2013, 03:05 PM
  #64
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The ONLY thing I can complain about with Niemi is his puck handling, and that's not really that abnormal. Plus, at the rate he's going, he'll work on that next and by next season be a premier puck handler too.
I actually think he's been much better at that this year. He's had a few brain farts, but much improved IMO. Let's hope it continues to improve.

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04-17-2013, 03:18 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
The best thing with Niemi is his work ethic. Many sources now have said his dedication and work ethic are absolutely unmatched. The man went from running the zamboni to being a Vezina candidate in around 5 years, that doesn't happen without tremendous commitment. He keeps getting better, in every area, ever year. He's been amazingly consistent this season as well, which really is the most important attribute of a goalie.

Honestly I think the reason they don't give the other goalies more work has a lot to do with the fact that the players trust Niemi implicitly and win games simply because they don't have to worry about him. Stick Greiss or Stalock in there and the team starts second guessing the goalie.

The ONLY thing I can complain about with Niemi is his puck handling, and that's not really that abnormal. Plus, at the rate he's going, he'll work on that next and by next season be a premier puck handler too.
I use long distance outlets as the benchmark for puckhandling. He isn't close yet. We'll see. I have Brodeur, Smith, Rinne, Price and Ward as the big puckhandlers. Of the name goalies, Lundqvist and Luongo are bad with the puck. When the Nucks had their run, they were going with almost all six d with good puck skills, compensating for BobbieLu.

I agree that part of the reluctance on backups may be the players. They have played atrocious in front of Greiss on more than a few occasions. I don't think it should be that way. It is a sign of the players running the show more than they should with the coaches. There is also the tendency of coaches to name a #1 and then let they themselves decide when to play. And the goalie doesn't have the knowledge.

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04-17-2013, 03:32 PM
  #66
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I would like to see Stalock get some games just because I want to see what effect a very good puck handling goalie has on the team. They simply have not had one in the modern Sharks era. Closest was probably Boucher, and that's not saying much.

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04-17-2013, 03:32 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
There are people on these boards that have watched Stalock play for a long time and I'm guessing every one of them will tell you that giving him a starting job in the NHL (w/o having to anything to earn it) is a horrible idea.
As someone that has watched every minute Stalock has ever played in the AHL (excepting his brief stint in Peoria) I concur with this opinion. I do think he will eventually be a damn good NHL goaltender, but he'd not ready to be a #1 yet.

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04-17-2013, 06:25 PM
  #68
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I would like to see Stalock get some games just because I want to see what effect a very good puck handling goalie has on the team. They simply have not had one in the modern Sharks era. Closest was probably Boucher, and that's not saying much.
Nabokov was Datsyuk in comparison to Niemi. Sometimes I wonder if Niemi has his glove and stick hands wrong and just never tried it the other way. He's impossibly bad.

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04-17-2013, 06:47 PM
  #69
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Nabokov was Datsyuk in comparison to Niemi. Sometimes I wonder if Niemi has his glove and stick hands wrong and just never tried it the other way. He's impossibly bad.
He's bad, and yes Nabakov could physically play the puck better than Niemi but Nabakov had impossibly bad decision making. Niemi seems like he knows the right thing to do with the puck he just can't make the puck go where he wants it to go.

You for instance RARELY see Niemi turn the puck over and have it end up in the back of the net. Nabakov did that a few times a year and you always put your face in your hands and cried a little. I remember the GDT's filling up with "DAMNIT NABBY JUST FREEZE THE PUCK"

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04-17-2013, 07:24 PM
  #70
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He's bad, and yes Nabakov could physically play the puck better than Niemi but Nabakov had impossibly bad decision making. Niemi seems like he knows the right thing to do with the puck he just can't make the puck go where he wants it to go.

You for instance RARELY see Niemi turn the puck over and have it end up in the back of the net. Nabakov did that a few times a year and you always put your face in your hands and cried a little. I remember the GDT's filling up with "DAMNIT NABBY JUST FREEZE THE PUCK"
Thats because Nabby thought he was Brodeur and would try and whip passes to the dmen. Niemi definetly knows his limitations with the puck. I wish he was a little better at playing it but its hard to knock the guy.

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04-17-2013, 08:13 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
He's bad, and yes Nabakov could physically play the puck better than Niemi but Nabakov had impossibly bad decision making. Niemi seems like he knows the right thing to do with the puck he just can't make the puck go where he wants it to go.

You for instance RARELY see Niemi turn the puck over and have it end up in the back of the net. Nabakov did that a few times a year and you always put your face in your hands and cried a little. I remember the GDT's filling up with "DAMNIT NABBY JUST FREEZE THE PUCK"
Nabby wasn't that good. He had no backhand. Nemo does have a backhand. I have Nabby at a bit above average, low top ten with the puck.

Part of the difference is that Nabby is a better skater allowing him to get to more pucks where Nemo declines when it pushes his skating ability.

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