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Greatest leaf all time ?

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Old
04-17-2013, 11:15 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by mehavecable View Post
True but 6 teams meant it was tougher to play... Only the best get to play... So the top players were truely the top players.
Agreed the more teams the more watered down the talent becomes.

Back in the original 6 days it was all-star teams going up against each other with teams full of HHOFers on squads.

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04-17-2013, 11:16 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Agreed the more teams the more watered down the talent becomes.

Back in the original 6 days it was all-star teams going up against each other with teams full of HHOFers on squads.
and facing one of the best 6 goalies in the world every night

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04-17-2013, 11:39 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by LakeshoreWest View Post
It's pretty obvious they were being sarcastic...
Ya....so was i.....

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04-17-2013, 11:57 AM
  #79
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First of all, I'm struck by how such a subjective question can provoke so many to express their answers in such certain terms, as if there can be no doubt or disagreement.

Having said that, the correct answers are:

For my Dad (a Leafs fan since the late 1930's) - Syl Apps.

I'll go with Dave Keon, despite his bitterness.


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04-17-2013, 12:05 PM
  #80
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Quote:
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I'll go with Dave Keon, despite his bitterness.

Harold Ballard had the ability to bring out the worst in a lot of things, non the least being grudges of former players through mistreatment.

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04-17-2013, 12:13 PM
  #81
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Harold Ballard had the ability to bring out the worst in a lot of things, non the least being grudges of former players through mistreatment.
No doubt Harold was difficult and complex. He was also loveable, it would appear from the many stories told about him, though that seems hard for fans to believe.

And as for Davey Keon, no doubt there is more to him than appears in the few interview clips I've seen. From my current vantage point of total serenity and connectedness with all things, I can overlook his faults and give him my vote.

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04-17-2013, 12:21 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlap View Post
No doubt Harold was difficult and complex. He was also loveable, it would appear from the many stories told about him, though that seems hard for fans to believe.

And as for Davey Keon, no doubt there is more to him than appears in the few interview clips I've seen. From my current vantage point of total serenity and connectedness with all things, I can overlook his faults and give him my vote.
Your voting ballot appears the same as mine, so I hope you weren't looking over my shoulder for enlightenment of the correctiveness of response to this threads question.

Keon stands alone when it comes to being the greatest Leafs of my era. His conviction to this day about his beliefs in matters is considered a blessing as opposed to a curse for me, when it comes to standing up for what one believes in.

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04-17-2013, 12:37 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Your voting ballot appears the same as mine, so I hope you weren't looking over my shoulder for enlightenment of the correctiveness of response to this threads question.

...
I wait for you to post first, so I can know what to think.

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04-17-2013, 12:42 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
I wait for you to post first, so I can know what to think.
the opposite?

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04-17-2013, 12:43 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
I wait for you to post first, so I can know what to think.
I then look to your responses, to reassure myself that I indeed have come up with the correct answer.

A second opinion covering original thought conviction now blessed with both foresight and then reassuring hindsight.

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04-17-2013, 12:48 PM
  #86
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From my own era, players I have watched with my own eyes,

it's such a tough damn call between Sundin and Gilmour. Both were fantastic leaders as well as gritty and talented . . . both were very defensively sound along with their offensive talents. Sundin was bigger and able to throw his weight around more . . . more there wasn't a smaller, more vicious little guy than Gilmour, one of the scrappiest talents of all time IMHO. Gilmour's two years of greatness outshone Sundin's very best years by a bit, certainly; but Sundin was very, very good so consistently for so long.

My vote goes to Sundin by half a puck. Gilmour comes in at a very very close second, followed (at a very respectable distance) by Wendel Clark at third.
After that, it becomes very tough again . . . but I'd have to go with Potvin, and Kaberle to round out my top 5.

PS - This might just be the 'playoffs coming soon' euphoria I am feeling, but I can't for my top five to have three new names in it due to all the championship runs we take in the future, hoepfully with a cup win in there. Would love to replace Clarke, Potvin and Kabby with Reimer, Kadri and Kessel. Here's hoping!

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04-17-2013, 12:51 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Around in 67 View Post
the opposite?
Well, sometimes I agree with Mess. That can be an uncomfortable moment for anyone, but we just need to remind ourselves that it happens to the best of us.



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04-17-2013, 12:52 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
Well, sometimes I agree with Mess. That can be an uncomfortable moment for anyone, but we just need to remind ourselves that it happens to the best of us.


yep, even I agree with him on this one...

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04-17-2013, 01:10 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
Well, sometimes I agree with Mess. That can be an uncomfortable moment for anyone, but we just need to remind ourselves that it happens to the best of us.


Well, you don't want to be wrong all the time, that can't be fun either, so occasionally stepping into the light does have its own rewards.

I think the majority of fans would conclude and agree that Keon is the best Leaf of all time. While there are others prior to him that deserve their due recognition on their own merits, however I don't believe anyone that has come after him, can rival him in that distinction. IMO

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04-17-2013, 01:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well, you don't want to be wrong all the time, that can't be fun either, so occasionally stepping into the light does have its own rewards.

I think the majority of fans would conclude and agree that Keon is the best Leaf of all time. While there are others prior to him that deserve their due recognition on their own merits, however I don't believe anyone that has come after him, can rival him in that distinction. IMO
It would be interesting to see the results of a properly conducted survey (as opposed to internet polls). My guess is that amongst people who have been fans for at least 30 years, Keon would win.

Amongst younger or more recent fans, I'm thinking Sundin. There's probably more of them, so Sundin might win a straightforward poll of all fans.

If we could consult the dead??? Turk Broda maybe?

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04-17-2013, 01:34 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
It would be interesting to see the results of a properly conducted survey (as opposed to internet polls). My guess is that amongst people who have been fans for at least 30 years, Keon would win.

Amongst younger or more recent fans, I'm thinking Sundin. There's probably more of them, so Sundin might win a straightforward poll of all fans.

If we could consult the dead??? Turk Broda maybe?
Primeau would get some votes I'm sure. And Ace. Busher. King. there really are too many to pick one....

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04-17-2013, 01:38 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
It would be interesting to see the results of a properly conducted survey (as opposed to internet polls). My guess is that amongst people who have been fans for at least 30 years, Keon would win.

Amongst younger or more recent fans, I'm thinking Sundin. There's probably more of them, so Sundin might win a straightforward poll of all fans.

If we could consult the dead??? Turk Broda maybe?
Well attempting to answer this very question has occurred in the past by those that have seen and are a part of the game.

Writer Mike Leonetti set out to answer this very question when he created his Maple Leafs Top 100 (Toronto's greatest players of all time) book.

Quote:
Maple Leafs Top 100



Prolific hockey writer Mike Leonetti set out to answer one of the most difficult questions in all of hockey.

Who is the greatest Toronto Maple Leaf of all time?

If you were to ask 14 different people you'd come up with 14 different answers. Well that's exactly what Leonetti did for his latest book project Maple Leafs Top 100: Toronto's Greatest Players Of All Time. Leonetti asked a jury of Mark Askin, Howard Berger, Joe Bowen, Milt Dunnell, Doug Farraway, Paul Hendrick, Lance Hornby, Harry Neale, Frank Orr, Paul Patskou, Frank Selke, Bill Watters, co-author John Iaboni and himself to determine a definitive list of the top 100 players in Maple Leafs history.

Coming up with this list is extremely difficult. The Leafs glory years came in the 1940s and 1960s. Very little video evidence and first hand accounts exist for the late '40s dynasty, so how do you fairly treat Syl Apps, Teeder Kennedy, Turk Broda and Max Bentley. Even the 1960s dynasty is very distant, and those teams really prided themselves on putting the team before the individual. Frank Mahovlich, Johnny Bower and Dave Keon stood out, but perhaps their legacies were minimalized. The Leafs have had so little success since the 1960s that a couple generations of fans don't know what a championship run really is. Championships = greatness, so how do you compare Darryl Sittler, Doug Gilmour, Wendel Clark and Mats Sundin.

Well the panel of experts narrowed it down, and I have to say I'm highly impressed with the results, or at least the top end. The panel's voting identifies Dave Keon as the greatest of the Maple Leafs, with Teeder Kennedy, Syl Apps, Frank Mahovlich, Darryl Sittler, Charlie Conacher, Johnny Bower, Tim Horton, Turk Broda and Borje Salming rounding out the top 10.

Full story: http://www.hockeybookreviews.com/200...s-top-100.html

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04-17-2013, 02:00 PM
  #93
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Here is The Hockey News Top 100. I will name the top ten and then only the Leafs. I will asterisk the players who played significant roles with the Leafs but may have had their greatest influence elsewhere. I have left out players who had only short tenures in Toronto, eg Sawchuk, Bathgate or Leetch.

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
4.Mario Lemieux[1]
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk[2]
10.Eddie Shore

23.Red Kelly*

27.Frank Mahovlich

34.Syl Apps

36.Charlie Conacher

43.Tim Horton

48.Max Bentley*

52.King Clancy*

55.Busher Jackson

57.Ted Kennedy
60.Turk Broda
69 Dave Keon
74.Borje Salming Sweden


83.Babe Dye
84.Lorne Chabot
87.Johnny Bower

90.Norm Ullman*
91.Sweeney Schriner Russia*
92.Joe Primeau
93.Darryl Sittler

96.Babe Pratt*

I think this is a pretty good list. My own opinion is that the greatest in terms of effect on the game in their time, are Syl Apps and Charlie Conacher. If you look at First All Star and/or scoring championships, those are the guys.

Remembering the 60's teams, as I do, I would say that opponents worried most about neutralizing Mahovlich and may have respected Horton as much as Keon. But all three were great and a case can be made for each. I note the Hockey News order, however.

I have seen the top nine play and agree with the ratings there, by the way.

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04-17-2013, 02:01 PM
  #94
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Well if you go by the hockey news top 100 NHL players of all time, Mahovlich is the top ranking Leaf coming in at number 27. Keon coming in at number 69.

To put Mahovlich numbers in perspective. Imagine if someone played on 4 cup winning teams and led the team in goals scored in 3 of those years. Sort of puts Gilmour got us to the semi's one season a little lame.

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04-17-2013, 02:13 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charon of Styx View Post
Well if you go by the hockey news top 100 NHL players of all time, Mahovlich is the top ranking Leaf coming in at number 27. Keon coming in at number 69.

To put Mahovlich numbers in perspective. Imagine if someone played on 4 cup winning teams and led the team in goals scored in 3 of those years. Sort of puts Gilmour got us to the semi's one season a little lame.
Don't forget that list is not exclusive to Leafs only and the Big M ranking also has input from what he did in Montreal and Detroit also as well as Toronto to be ranked where he is ..

Keon's NHL career is almost exclusive to Toronto (excluding the twilight years when the WHA rejoined the NHL).

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04-17-2013, 03:12 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Don't forget that list is not exclusive to Leafs only and the Big M ranking also has input from what he did in Montreal and Detroit also as well as Toronto to be ranked where he is ..

Keon's NHL career is almost exclusive to Toronto (excluding the twilight years when the WHA rejoined the NHL).

True, but the Big M's greatest years, eg first All star awards, were mostly with the Leafs. And there are others on that list whose playing contributions were exclusively or almost exclusively with the Leafs.

Probably watching Dave Keon gave me the most aesthetic pleasure of all those 60's Leafs, however.

Just as an aside: I wonder where Carl Brewer would have rated if he could have put up with Punch Imlach and played what should have been the best years of his career with the Leafs. I think he may have been the most gifted of all the Leafs of those years but he basically dropped out at the height of his career.

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04-17-2013, 03:58 PM
  #97
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Another aside: as I thought about this thread, I realized that Morgan Rielly reminds me a bit of Carl Brewer. Brewer was also a fast and smooth skater in his prime, who saw the ice beautifully and handled the puck very well. Actually, I think Rielly may probably even be a better skater than Brewer.

But in Brewer's last four seasons with the Leafs, he was injured one season and only played 57 games. In his other seasons, he was First All Star once and Second All Star twice, in four years.

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04-17-2013, 04:25 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by timlap View Post
It would be interesting to see the results of a properly conducted survey (as opposed to internet polls). My guess is that amongst people who have been fans for at least 30 years, Keon would win.

Amongst younger or more recent fans, I'm thinking Sundin. There's probably more of them, so Sundin might win a straightforward poll of all fans.

If we could consult the dead??? Turk Broda maybe?
Turk Broda I believe is the only Leaf to win 5 Stanley Cups (1942, 1947, 1948, 1949 1951) as a Leaf and toss in a pair of Vezina's for good measure...missed the 1944-45 Leaf Cup winner because he was in the Service...and a lifetime Leaf...not a bad resume...

Johnny Bower managed 4 Stanley Cups and 2 Vezina's...a pretty good resume as well...

Just thought I would toss in the goalies into the conversation as most of the "Love" seems to be for the forwards...

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04-17-2013, 04:38 PM
  #99
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Turk Broda I believe is the only Leaf to win 5 Stanley Cups (1942, 1947, 1948, 1949 1951) as a Leaf and toss in a pair of Vezina's for good measure...missed the 1944-45 Leaf Cup winner because he was in the Service...and a lifetime Leaf...not a bad resume...

Johnny Bower managed 4 Stanley Cups and 2 Vezina's...a pretty good resume as well...

Just thought I would toss in the goalies into the conversation as most of the "Love" seems to be for the forwards...
Now you got me thinking, how could I possibly get through the morning without my xlarge coffee? Look at how Tim Horton has affected millions of lives, millions of times a day, he just has to be the greatest Leaf ever.

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04-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #100
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Out of all the original teams we have by far the least amount of true superstars... hardly any MVPs, awards etc. for our players. We've never really had a clear top 1-3 player in the game at any given time.
This player may have been from a long time ago, but Charlie Conacher was probably top 3 in the NHL during the 1930's...
He won the Stanley Cup only once (1932), but also won 2 Scoring titles (1933 and 1934) as well as leading the NHL in scoring 5 times in 7 years (1930-31/1931-32/1933-34/1934-35/1935-36)
He broke his wrist the next year and never recovered from the injury properly...

In those years he led the league in scoring he scored 31 goals, 34 goals, 32 goals, 36 goals and 23 goals...all in 48 game seasons...how many of 2013 stars will score that many (since it is a 48 game season this year)

To contrast this Howie Morenz (the Montreal great) won 2 scoring championships and led the league in goal scoring once (1927-28)... Howie Morenz will always be listed amonst the greatest of Habs...

Sounds like Conacher did rather well for basically 7 years...

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