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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

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Old
04-17-2013, 03:33 AM
  #476
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The lack of cohesion is sickening to watch. This roster is capable of much more. Every team in the NHL has a better system. We can't even complete 2 passes.

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Old
04-17-2013, 04:28 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by First Man In View Post
I agree with this, but then comes the question of how long it would take to implement an entirely new system? What if it would take over a season or two? Are we patient? I really want Torts gone also,it we need to find a replacement who can utilize our teams strengths.
Yeah, this scares me.

And to be honest, the one I am the most dissapointed in -- and I am speculating here as regards the responsibilities of the two -- is Mike Sullivan.

Scotty Bowman was on top of things in Detroit, for sure, but Barry Smith definitely had a huge responsibility for the Xs and Os. Smith had coached in Sweden during the 80's and picked up alot of knowledge of a more organized approch to the defensive side of the game (Europe were a little ahead of the NHL here).

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/barry-smith/
Quote:
Smith is a familiar face in NHL areas, a long time assistant coach who stood next to Scotty Bowman behind the bench in Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Detroit. So he’s a major contributor to five Stanley Cup champions and an innovator in his own right, the man who brought the left-wing lock system to the Red Wings.
Its like with Slats. I just think he has lost any and all fingertop-gefuhl he ever had for the modern game. But he can undoubtedly work the phones. Probably as good as anyone in the game. We know that he got a precense in any room with his peers. If you have a guy behind him pointing him in the right direction (which I think we had with Maloney) he could be as good as any GM in the league. If not, he could be a nightmare.

I definitely think Torts with an X and O guy that ensures that we adopt to the game 2013 could be an excellent fit in NY. But no matter what, I am very troubled by how we look on the ice right now. And no matter how many pts we got last season, the writing has been on the wall for a long time if you look at our two prior seasons to last year and how we looked against certain teams last season (against NJD for example, against Was in the PO's prior to that where we struggled to get 3 shots on net per period) and so forth. When you look at how we actually looked last season (complete nightmare early in the season, then better and better and actually good christmas plus minus 2-3 weeks, and then subpar again towards the end of the year). Hank was just amazing.

In the end, our coaching-staff just must do a better job. To be honest, we play teams with great flaws and emergency solutions all over the place, and we look like ****. There is no way you can explain that by pointing at individual players. If Torts has to go to fix it, so be it. Maybe the best solution however would be to bring in someone who can fix the Xs and Os. Get a smother transition. Because if you brought in any coach from even like the top 5 teams in the league, youd have to put them on suicide watch after them seing just how poorly drilled we have been the last 3-4 years. You do not implement a system in hockey by drawing up Xs and Os on a board, the game is too fast and the marginals are too small. The more you work on a system, the better you get on it. You can't put a timeframe on it for like 3 years, but it takes time. I am sure Detorit 2013 indirectly is benefitting greatly from work done in 1993, twenty years ago. Its the same with NJD. The job our competitors started in like 2006-2008 maybe, we have to start with in 2013. That is just not good.


Last edited by Ola: 04-17-2013 at 04:45 AM.
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Old
04-17-2013, 05:14 AM
  #478
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This is not a well written post (from 2009), but I'll post a link anyway because the key points still applies (even if it must be hard to understand what I am meaning).

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...071&highlight=

You lost a key feature in Torts system when it almost became impossible for D's to stand up forwards high up ice. Now they have to just back down into the lap of their goalie and put themselves between a shooter and the net (read gap controll).

In short, pre-lockout, Torts gave his D's alot of support by having his forwards come back with speed. The D's, with strong board precense from his wingers, could step up and make defensive plays high up ice, and then get the puck -- after a takeaway in the neutralzone/at the defensive blueline -- fast to center ice and the talent they had there.

The result in the post-lockout game is two folded.

1. Your D's can't stand up forwards on a regular basis. You don't win pucks high up ice, you more often than not give up/block a shot and have to start from your own end. Hence defensive takeaways does not result in a offensive opertunity. You need to start from your own end, and from there by creative plays get into offensive situations.

2. And this is definitely to a much larger extent the case in 2013 than in 2009 when I made that post, the game isn't played along the boards. So many passes and plays are made up center ice. Not up ice along the boards, and then when you are out of danger to center ice.

This doesn't hurt us defensively, but it takes away a fundamental source of offense from the system Torts used in 2004. A source of offense that just must be replaced. You also gets to start from your own end much more often 2013 than in 2004, so its much more valuble to be good at that than other areas. In 2004 you could survive by not getting anything done when getting out of your own end, as long as you didn't make any misstakes.

I see other teams around us -- in our mold -- today solving this problem with creative passing in their transition game. By taking bigger risks. By acknowledging that you need to take advantage of being of possession of the puck in your own end, in order to keep up offensively. We are not doing that.

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Old
04-17-2013, 05:18 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Hey, remember when the deadline moves were supposed to strengthen the Rangers through depth and secondary scoring?

3-2-1 in their last six games, the Rangers have scored 14 goals in that span. That comes out to an average of 2.33, which is exactly what their season average is. Good enough for 27th in goals per game.

4-2-1. They were 4-6-1 in the previous 11 leading up to the trades.

The Rangers have played better hockey and look better offensively.

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04-17-2013, 07:20 AM
  #480
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4-2-1. They were 4-6-1 in the previous 11 leading up to the trades.

The Rangers have played better hockey and look better offensively.
If you want to put that Pittsburgh game in, go ahead. But anyone that watched that game knows it was a joke. More to the point, it obviously is a great deviation from the norm, and every game since then has shown that offensively, they arent much better. That's why they are still 27th in the league in scoring.

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Old
04-17-2013, 07:57 AM
  #481
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At this point, I'd settle on Richard Simmons being the coach of the Rangers. Win or lose, they'd at least be fabulous.





Or Scott Gordon. Preferably Scott Gordon.
lol, oh my god, I just got a mental picture of this.

Richard Simmons behind the bench in his trademark shorts screaming you can do it, I believe in you!!!! woooooo


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04-17-2013, 07:58 AM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Yeah, this scares me.

And to be honest, the one I am the most dissapointed in -- and I am speculating here as regards the responsibilities of the two -- is Mike Sullivan.

Scotty Bowman was on top of things in Detroit, for sure, but Barry Smith definitely had a huge responsibility for the Xs and Os. Smith had coached in Sweden during the 80's and picked up alot of knowledge of a more organized approch to the defensive side of the game (Europe were a little ahead of the NHL here).

http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/barry-smith/


Its like with Slats. I just think he has lost any and all fingertop-gefuhl he ever had for the modern game. But he can undoubtedly work the phones. Probably as good as anyone in the game. We know that he got a precense in any room with his peers. If you have a guy behind him pointing him in the right direction (which I think we had with Maloney) he could be as good as any GM in the league. If not, he could be a nightmare.

I definitely think Torts with an X and O guy that ensures that we adopt to the game 2013 could be an excellent fit in NY. But no matter what, I am very troubled by how we look on the ice right now. And no matter how many pts we got last season, the writing has been on the wall for a long time if you look at our two prior seasons to last year and how we looked against certain teams last season (against NJD for example, against Was in the PO's prior to that where we struggled to get 3 shots on net per period) and so forth. When you look at how we actually looked last season (complete nightmare early in the season, then better and better and actually good christmas plus minus 2-3 weeks, and then subpar again towards the end of the year). Hank was just amazing.

In the end, our coaching-staff just must do a better job. To be honest, we play teams with great flaws and emergency solutions all over the place, and we look like ****. There is no way you can explain that by pointing at individual players. If Torts has to go to fix it, so be it. Maybe the best solution however would be to bring in someone who can fix the Xs and Os. Get a smother transition. Because if you brought in any coach from even like the top 5 teams in the league, youd have to put them on suicide watch after them seing just how poorly drilled we have been the last 3-4 years. You do not implement a system in hockey by drawing up Xs and Os on a board, the game is too fast and the marginals are too small. The more you work on a system, the better you get on it. You can't put a timeframe on it for like 3 years, but it takes time. I am sure Detorit 2013 indirectly is benefitting greatly from work done in 1993, twenty years ago. Its the same with NJD. The job our competitors started in like 2006-2008 maybe, we have to start with in 2013. That is just not good.
It's almost as if Sullivan is a yes man.

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Old
04-17-2013, 08:12 AM
  #483
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So many people not knowing exactly what it is they want to see when it comes to the team's strategy/system -- just knowing they dont want to see this.

Something tells me that will be a recurring theme no matter who is the coach.

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Old
04-17-2013, 08:27 AM
  #484
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It's almost as if Sullivan is a yes man.
He is. That's why there's only one assistant on the bench. That's why the circle of trust is so small. That's why there's no adaptability during games or afterwards. That's why this team simply can't evolve.

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04-17-2013, 08:31 AM
  #485
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He is. That's why there's only one assistant on the bench. That's why the circle of trust is so small. That's why there's no adaptability during games or afterwards. That's why this team simply can't evolve.
You really think its all coaching thats holding the team back, huh? I certainly think thats part of it.

But I happen to think a bigger part is that this roster just isnt very good, especially when it comes to creativity.

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04-17-2013, 08:41 AM
  #486
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You really think its all coaching thats holding the team back, huh? I certainly think thats part of it.

But I happen to think a bigger part is that this roster just isnt very good, especially when it comes to creativity.
No, it's not all coaching. Not by a long shot.

But Torts' ego is definitely behind the bench/coaching setup and some of the trades we've seen this season. He simply refuses to have another voice or opinion on the bench or in the room - Sullivan won't say boo to him and there's no one else to speak up. Ergo, the team simply can not make adjustments or improve because the same singular set of eyes oversees it all.

We all see where Vel constantly harps on an outdated and irrelevant Jack Adams and Cup ring....Torts is doing the same thing. It worked 9 years ago, so Tortorella keeps doing it. Sully doesn't have the stones to speak up and tell him it won't, and inevitably it will cost both of them their jobs one day.

In reality, what they really need right now is a second assistant behind the bench. A guy with fresh eyes and a new perspective who will stand up and say, No, that doesn't work. Let's try this instead.

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04-17-2013, 08:42 AM
  #487
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Next season they have to start from the new page without Torts. I would not mind to see couple of Europeans in this club with good skills.

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Old
04-17-2013, 09:05 AM
  #488
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Next season they have to start from the new page without Torts. I would not mind to see couple of Europeans in this club with good skills.
Speaking of Europeans, does anyone wonder how Fast(h) and Lindberg will be handled (assuming Torts () is back)? From what I've read, both are willing to battle in the corners, but so was Kreider and he was exiled.

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Old
04-17-2013, 09:52 AM
  #489
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I admire that you stand by your guns with consistency, but he won the Jack Adams pre-lockout. He had a great run that year, but itís a long time ago and the game has changed a lot. Tortorella hasnít changed with it enough to excel in todayís game.

This team, right now, is a poorly coached team and has been almost his entire tenure. Their fundamentals are deplorable: positioning is bad; passing, transition, and power play look like they are never practiced. Tortorellaís in game adjusting and decision making is mediocre to sub-par. And his many public personnel bashes are unprofessional, damaging, and simply bad for morale. You have a problem with a player, handle it in the locker room. Donít publicly throw your guys under a bus with the press or during a practice.

I honestly find the guy likable and feel bad for him as it looks like heís lost the team and appears the players have finally given up on him. It honestly is tough to watch, because I think itís obvious the coaches do care about the organization and obviously want to win. But in my personal estimation, I never felt he did a great job here and overall feel the team has under-achieved during his tenure.

I respect that you feel differently, but bringing up a pre-lockout Adams to strengthen your case does nothing to solidify or speak to whatís happening now.
We were best in the East with him LAST YEAR. And he's completely changed from his Tampa days. Safe is death? He had incredibly offensive teams and he only got fired when the franchise decided he wouldn't have any NHL caliber goalies on the team.

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04-17-2013, 10:02 AM
  #490
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You really think its all coaching thats holding the team back, huh? I certainly think thats part of it.

But I happen to think a bigger part is that this roster just isnt very good, especially when it comes to creativity.
You don't need much creativity to break out of or gain a zone. You just need to know where your teammates will/should be. Some sort of coherent plan with a few options.

There is always so much separation from the defense and the forwards. Long stretch passes from one blue line to another. Three forwards down below the goal line on one side and our defense practically at the red line. Never any momentum moving through the neutral zone or on dump ins.

If they are going to be this worthless on the forecheck they may as well just trap and try and gain some offense on the counterattack.

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04-17-2013, 10:03 AM
  #491
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We were best in the East with him LAST YEAR. And he's completely changed from his Tampa days. Safe is death? He had incredibly offensive teams and he only got fired when the franchise decided he wouldn't have any NHL caliber goalies on the team.
So what explains his time with the Rangers where he's had probably the best goalie in the world and we've stayed relatively the same, except for one year where we finished first which just so happened to probably be said goalies career year?

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04-17-2013, 10:07 AM
  #492
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We were best in the East with him LAST YEAR. And he's completely changed from his Tampa days. Safe is death? He had incredibly offensive teams and he only got fired when the franchise decided he wouldn't have any NHL caliber goalies on the team.
And this year were desperately trying to claw our way into the playoffs. He's had one successful season here. One. That's it. Doing something once doesn't make it the rule.

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04-17-2013, 11:21 AM
  #493
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No matter what, it just feels like such a horrible idea to miss the PO's this season.

Gives Nash a real ****** start. It sets everyone of wrong for next season. etc.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 04-17-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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04-17-2013, 11:27 AM
  #494
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No matter what, it just feels like such a horrible idea to miss the PO's this season.

Gives Nash a real ****** start. It sets everyone of wrong for next season. etc.
Aside from one season under Tortorella, this is commonplace for the Rangers. This is their comfort zone.

It will always, seemingly, come down to the last game of the season with this team. I'm not expecting anything different this year.

08-09, in the playoffs by two points (12-7-2 under Torts, 31-23-7 under Renney).
09-10, miss on the last day of the year.
10-11, in on the last day of the year (thank you, Tampa)
11-12, anomaly
13 - ________________

Pretty easy to fill in the blank here. Hope to sneak in the last week of the season, and pray Hank gets hot at the right time. Rinse/repeat.


Last edited by JeffMangum: 04-17-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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04-17-2013, 11:36 AM
  #495
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we need dubi!

guys that trade with columbus is looking bad each day, now dubinsky has stepped up and leading the jackets after anisiminov is out. also that first round pick seems to get higher higher each day. it could be like the 15th overall pick, that can turnout to be a young star. nash cant lead he is just a sniper thats has his best days gone. im sorry but that trade has put us back. if we need had dubi and anisimonov we would be better . dubi was heart and soul and whatever nash is doing anisimonov could have been close to that. thats first round pick is gonna hurt when jackets go up to the podium.

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04-17-2013, 11:44 AM
  #496
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^ Questionably the real Tim Erixon

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04-17-2013, 11:47 AM
  #497
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guys that trade with columbus is looking bad each day, now dubinsky has stepped up and leading the jackets after anisiminov is out. also that first round pick seems to get higher higher each day. it could be like the 15th overall pick, that can turnout to be a young star. nash cant lead he is just a sniper thats has his best days gone. im sorry but that trade has put us back. if we need had dubi and anisimonov we would be better . dubi was heart and soul and whatever nash is doing anisimonov could have been close to that. thats first round pick is gonna hurt when jackets go up to the podium.
People have some incredible selective memory about Dubi. He has 1 goal this year. 1. He had ten his last year with NYR and that wasn't enough.

Also, saying that AA could be doing what Nash is doing is absolutely hilarious.

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04-17-2013, 11:47 AM
  #498
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^ Questionably the real Tim Erixon
You'd hope the real Tim Erixon could manage to not spell his teammates name incorrectly three times in one paragraph.

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04-17-2013, 11:48 AM
  #499
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You'd hope the real Tim Erixon could manage to not spell his teammates name incorrectly three times in one paragraph.
He's just trying to steer you off the course. All intentional.

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04-17-2013, 11:50 AM
  #500
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And this year were desperately trying to claw our way into the playoffs. He's had one successful season here. One. That's it. Doing something once doesn't make it the rule.
I'd imagine that the logic is that the one successful season was also the last 82 game season on a normal schedule. Frankly, my patience is starting to wear thin with the way this team looks, but I also think that the weird start echoes throughout the season. Before it comes up for the hundreth time, yes, other teams aren't having the same problems - this team has different players, including a first line center that looks like he forgot how to play.

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