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Should Ducks Retire Paul Kariya Jersey?

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Old
04-17-2013, 01:43 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
up until that point his "off the floor goal" was the greatest moment in ducks history so i dont see how he dissipeared
That was a meaningless goal in a blowout game (it made the game 4-1 IIRC). The only reason anyone cares about the goal is because Kariya got leveled by Stevens earlier in the game.

In those finals against NJ Kariya scored points in 1 out of 7 games. If he shows up for more than one game maybe the Ducks win the cup that year. Not to mention he didn't do much in any of the other series - 12 points in 21 games for a superstar winger is what I would consider disappearing. He was outscored and outplayed by a 40 year old Adam Oates FFS.

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04-17-2013, 05:50 AM
  #27
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I would also favour Kariya as the player who reached the highest peak as a Duck, maybe Pronger… But of course Selänne is and should be ranked as the greatest Duck. Kariyas play especially 95 until the hit by Suter in 98 was something special to see. Had a couple of seasons where you saw he wasn´t the same, but still put up great numbers. At the time of the duo I can´t remember anyone saying it was Selänne who was stirring the drink. At least until Suter happened. Either they were seen as equals or Kariya was ahead.
He´s 95-96-season should be regarded as the best regular season by a Duck player.
Another one from a favourite era who I feel tricked out of not seeing what he could achieve.

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Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
selanne led them to a cup something kariya couldent do
Seems a little too big words saying Selänne led Anaheim to the cup. He sure won a cup with Anaheim, but he sure didn´t lead them to anything. I don´t think Niedermayer should have won the Conn, but Selänne ain´t even in the top 5 of Duck players that run, more around 10. Niedermayer, Pronger, Giguere, McDonald on finals alone, Påhlsson, Moen, R Niedermayer and Getzlaf are ahead – maybe, but not likely, more when giving it thought.

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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
That was a meaningless goal in a blowout game (it made the game 4-1 IIRC). The only reason anyone cares about the goal is because Kariya got leveled by Stevens earlier in the game.

In those finals against NJ Kariya scored points in 1 out of 7 games. If he shows up for more than one game maybe the Ducks win the cup that year. Not to mention he didn't do much in any of the other series - 12 points in 21 games for a superstar winger is what I would consider disappearing. He was outscored and outplayed by a 40 year old Adam Oates FFS.
That you still can´t forgive him for leaving is obvious, and that´s fine - but seems it´s clouding your judgment a little. It may have been a “meaningless” goal (it was the 4-1 goal in a 5-2 game), but that is the strongest signal a captain can send. If a team don´t rise to the occasion by this, it ain´t meant to be:


And if the Oates card i drawn, to almost quote you "Selänne was outscored and outplayed by a 22 year old Ryan Getzlaf FFS".
And Kariya actually scored 4 points over 2 games, not great – but to compare Selänne scored 3 assist, spred over 3 seperate finals games, not exactly more dominating. And that´s not going into which D-corp NJ put out there against Kariya v.s. Ottawas D-corp 07 against Selänne.
Selänne was arguable even more of a passenger than Kariya in the Cup runs, but the 07 Ducks team was as a unite the hardest to play against since the lockout and probably adding a couple of years before that. They were probably winning the cup even if you replaced Selänne with a Jonas Höglund.
Have a sort of love/hate with the 07 Duck team. Would have loved to see Ottawa win, but always love those kind of gritty in your face teams that were the Ducks that year. Sure a great Team.

After a little meaningless rabble, rabble, rabble:
None of them should be judged by their cup runs. One was on a cinderella-tour that didn´t go all the way, one was a passenger on one of the greatest teams since the lockout.
Selänne could be first honoured if that´s imported. One half of one of the games greatest duos. A cup. A model face of the franchise for 14 years and counting.
Kariya should also get his numbers in the rafters. Also one half of one of the games greatest duos. Most important, made an expansion team that no one cared about interesting. Face of the franchise the first 9 seasons and his coming more or less created the first ground of the fanbase. Has the greatest seasons of any Duck.

They are the greatest players of the franchises 20 first years. Rejoice over having been able to watch one of the most exciting duos ever and remember it by having their numbers in the rafters beside each other. I would love to see them celebrated at the same time, but would think Selänne first and Kariya a season later or so.

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04-17-2013, 06:28 AM
  #28
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In my opinion, "the off-the-floor goal" is held in such reverence, not because what it meant to that game or even that playoff series, but because it was like looking into the past.

For the previous number of seasons (arguably since the Suter hit), Kariya wasn't the same player. When he was at his peak, he was everything that the guy who started this thread said he was. Kariya was a dynamic talent, amazing on-ice vision, he could score at will, he could stick handle with the best of them and skate like the wind. When Gretzky retired in '99, Kariya was always near the top of the list of players who were catching that torch.

But after the Suter hit and the big contract he signed in 1999, something changed in his game. I don't know if it was the concussions or the money or the constant losing or what, but he didn't seem to have the same fire he had before. Keep in mind, this was when Kariya should have been at his peak in terms of his age, but his production was actually going down. (Of course, Selanne was traded away at this time too and Kariya never had much of a supporting cast). There was talk that for the money, he wasn't bringing enough and that the Ducks should trade him away to help the team.

Anyway, as mentioned, by the time the 2003 run came along, Kariya wasn't the driving force. He was second or third tier behind Giguere and the defensive play of Keith Carney and Rucchin's line with Mike Leclerc and Rob Niedermayer.

But then that goal happened and for a moment, it just appeared like the old Kariya was back, the one from five years ago who played with fearless passion and could make anything happen on the ice. Of course, it was just a flash, a memory and Anaheim ended up losing the series they had no right to be playing in the first place.

To me, that's one of the more disappointing things with Kariya. In one of his last moments as a Duck, certainly the standout memory of him during that playoff moment, he showed a glimpse once more of everything that made him great.

And then he left for Colorado.

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Old
04-17-2013, 06:33 AM
  #29
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**** yeah.

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04-17-2013, 06:38 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
selanne led them to a cup something kariya couldent do


Neither could Selänne when Kariya was there. Nobody could lead that AHL caliber team anywhere. Not even Conn Smyther Giguere could lead the ducks to victory pre-expansion.

The forwards and centers behind Kariya - Rucchin - Selänne were

Sandström
McInnis
Cullen
LeClerc
Krygier
Van Allen
Hrkac
Drury
Titov
Valk

and yes, they were second liners...

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04-17-2013, 06:41 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
That was a meaningless goal in a blowout game (it made the game 4-1 IIRC). The only reason anyone cares about the goal is because Kariya got leveled by Stevens earlier in the game.

In those finals against NJ Kariya scored points in 1 out of 7 games. If he shows up for more than one game maybe the Ducks win the cup that year. Not to mention he didn't do much in any of the other series - 12 points in 21 games for a superstar winger is what I would consider disappearing. He was outscored and outplayed by a 40 year old Adam Oates FFS.
Hardly outplayed and it wasnt hard for powerhouse Devils to shutdown the only real danger on the Ducks team.

Oates played the easier minutes and Kariya - Rucchin got shadowed to death.

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04-17-2013, 06:51 AM
  #32
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I think they could but I dunno. Selanne is probably more deserving.

Kariya is the best player the Ducks have ever had in uniform. He and Selanne basically were the team back in the day.

It is a shame Suter ruined what was shaping up to be a sure fire Hall of Fame career.

I think Selanne is the greatest Duck. He peaked right up there with Kariya and what he has been accomplishing with his longevity is really something.

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04-17-2013, 07:02 AM
  #33
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I always thought (and still do) that Selanne was the better player of the two when they were both in Anaheim. He had a more varied offensive game and made his teammates/linemates better players, especially when Kariya was injured and Selanne was basically carrying the team. The hockey media at that time underrated Selanne to some extent and overrated Kariya - they had created a meme of Lindros/Jagr/Forsberg/Kariya as the new "Big Four". Kariya in particular was getting pushed hard by the media as the "new Gretzky" (in the sense of being the slick, skilled Canadian superstar) as a counterpoint to Lindros who was the "new Howe/Messier".

And I completely agree that Kariya scoring that 4-1 goal in a game that ended 5-2 is one of the most overrated "moments" in NHL history. In the context of the series, it really meant nothing (especially considering they got shut out in game 7).

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04-17-2013, 07:07 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I always thought (and still do) that Selanne was the better player of the two when they were both in Anaheim. He had a more varied offensive game and made his teammates/linemates better players, especially when Kariya was injured and Selanne was basically carrying the team. The hockey media at that time underrated Selanne to some extent and overrated Kariya - they had created a meme of Lindros/Jagr/Forsberg/Kariya as the new "Big Four". Kariya in particular was getting pushed hard by the media as the "new Gretzky" (in the sense of being the slick, skilled Canadian superstar) as a counterpoint to Lindros who was the "new Howe/Messier".

And I completely agree that Kariya scoring that 4-1 goal in a game that ended 5-2 is one of the most overrated "moments" in NHL history. In the context of the series, it really meant nothing (especially considering they got shut out in game 7).
They coined that bif four thing before Kariyas injury when all four looked to be the best in the game. Then the Suter hit happened and Selänne skated past him a bit. I dont think Selänne were without a doubt the best duck until he came back after the expansion tho.

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04-17-2013, 08:09 AM
  #35
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Retiring any player's # who is not in the HHoF is ridiculous.

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04-17-2013, 09:48 AM
  #36
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They coined that bif four thing before Kariyas injury when all four looked to be the best in the game. Then the Suter hit happened and Selänne skated past him a bit. I dont think Selänne were without a doubt the best duck until he came back after the expansion tho.
Yeah, Selanne being better is a hindsight thing.

Kariya was widely considered better before he got gooned.

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04-17-2013, 09:51 AM
  #37
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Retiring any player's # who is not in the HHoF is ridiculous.
So if Alfredsson doesnt get in HHoF the sens shouldnt acknowledge the years of hard work and leadership he has provided for the team and the city. Serving as their captain for a long time and being the face of the franchise.

Thats ridiculous.

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04-17-2013, 10:17 AM
  #38
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Retiring any player's # who is not in the HHoF is ridiculous.
Ok then. Numminen was not deserving? Your idea is ridiculous.

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04-17-2013, 10:26 AM
  #39
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Absolutely he should!

He's kind of been lost in the shuffle with the Ducks having so many elite players and their recent Cup run, but Paul was very much the face of the franchise early on, a consistent producer that never really rocked the boat on or off the ice (from what little I've heard, Ottawa is a far way from Cali ). Retired jerseys shouldn't just be for the Hall of Fame level guys, if a player has definite and stated importance to the team and also has stats to back it up, why not?

I'll ask my friend Jia this Saturday, he's the "Only Ducks fan in Ottawa". I remember him being meh about Kariya in the HHOF, but he might have a different opinion on a jersey retirement.

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04-17-2013, 10:43 AM
  #40
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Retiring any player's # who is not in the HHoF is ridiculous.
I think it really comes down to individual teams. HHOF is for all of us, but the jersey retirement is just for one team's fans.

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04-17-2013, 10:47 AM
  #41
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I would also favour Kariya as the player who reached the highest peak as a Duck, maybe Pronger… But of course Selänne is and should be ranked as the greatest Duck.
Pronger is a very close second in my mind. While Kariya was one of the top five or ten players in the league the late 90s and was the league''s top LW, Pronger was the best defenseman in the league as a Duck (2007; should have won his third Norris after 2000 and 2004). Kariya played longer for the team at a higher level; Pronger only played a couple seasons in Anaheim and they don't match up to Kariya's best in Anaheim.

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I would love to see them celebrated at the same time, but would think Selänne first and Kariya a season later or so.
If Selanne retires before Kariya does, then they should go up on the same night. Sort of like when they did Sid Abel's number in Detroit, they raised it up underneath Lindsay's and Howe's (which were next to each other) and then, when it got close, pulled the two wingers apart to make an opening for their center.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I think they could but I dunno. Selanne is probably more deserving.
Selanne is more deserving, as he has done more for the franchise. A comparison might be Mike Vernon vs. Miikka Kiprusoff in Calgary. Who was the better goalie? Whose number should be retired?

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He peaked right up there with Kariya and what he has been accomplishing with his longevity is really something.
Selanne's peak is a step, or maybe even a half-step, below Kariya's. It's like comparing guys who peaked in the 80s and early 90s with Steve Yzerman, Mario Lemieux, and Wayne Gretzky. Even Mark Messier's peak is a step below those three.

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04-17-2013, 11:09 AM
  #42
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Selanne's peak is a step, or maybe even a half-step, below Kariya's. It's like comparing guys who peaked in the 80s and early 90s with Steve Yzerman, Mario Lemieux, and Wayne Gretzky. Even Mark Messier's peak is a step below those three.
That's utterly ridiculous. Kariya didn't do anything at his peak that was better than what Selanne was doing at the same time other than be faster/a bit flashier. Selanne was the better goal-scorer and recorded higher scoring finishes. It's not like Kariya had anything resembling a defensive or physical game that might make up the difference.

Top 5 Scoring finishes from 1996-97 to 1998-99:

Selanne: 2,-,2
Kariya: 3,-,3

Top 5 Goal finishes:

Selanne: 2,1,1
Kariya: -,-,-

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04-17-2013, 11:15 AM
  #43
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If Ducks don't retire Kariya's jersey, then there should be only one jersey hanging from the rafters of Honda Center in the next five years...

Actually, make it ten. Teemu might play for another five seasons.

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04-17-2013, 11:39 AM
  #44
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Yeah it should be but not before Selanne has his retired.

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04-17-2013, 12:32 PM
  #45
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That's utterly ridiculous. Kariya didn't do anything at his peak that was better than what Selanne was doing at the same time other than be faster/a bit flashier. Selanne was the better goal-scorer and recorded higher scoring finishes. It's not like Kariya had anything resembling a defensive or physical game that might make up the difference.

Top 5 Scoring finishes from 1996-97 to 1998-99:

Selanne: 2,-,2
Kariya: 3,-,3

Top 5 Goal finishes:

Selanne: 2,1,1
Kariya: -,-,-

This is exactly what I mean when I say Selanne was better than Kariya. Selanne clearly, slightly but clearly has better offensive stats. He has better PPG finishes. Better raw numbers and better top-10 finishes. Neither of these two was anything special defensively and Selanne was more physical.

What exactly makes Kariya better? Media attention?

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04-17-2013, 01:33 PM
  #46
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This is exactly what I mean when I say Selanne was better than Kariya. Selanne clearly, slightly but clearly has better offensive stats. He has better PPG finishes. Better raw numbers and better top-10 finishes. Neither of these two was anything special defensively and Selanne was more physical.

What exactly makes Kariya better? Media attention?
no, kariya has the higher ppg as a duck then selanne. from 99 on kariya just wasn't the same elite player. but from that period in the 90s, both were in their prime, but kariya's skill level was crazy, a lot of people who remember and watched back then argue kariya was the better player, thats why he was the 3 time first team all star winger in that period.

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04-17-2013, 01:37 PM
  #47
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no, kariya has the higher ppg as a duck then selanne. from 99 on kariya just wasn't the same elite player. but from that period in the 90s, both were in their prime, but kariya's skill level was crazy, a lot of people who remember and watched back then argue kariya was the better player, thats why he was the 3 time first team all star winger in that period.
Selanne has better PPG finishes. He has better PPG for three year stretch. No-one was talking about career achievements. In which Selanne blows Kariya out of water.

For three year peak Selanne was better than Kariya. Maybe the media hype has people still living in the past.

You know why Selanne was only 1st, 2nd and 2nd team all-star? Cause he had significantly harder competition than Kariya. Just take a look of RW's and LW's of that era.

Could you please elaborate why Kariya was better than Selanne? And no, "Kariya had INSANE talent level" is not a good explanation.


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04-17-2013, 02:15 PM
  #48
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04-17-2013, 02:19 PM
  #49
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That's utterly ridiculous. Kariya didn't do anything at his peak that was better than what Selanne was doing at the same time other than be faster/a bit flashier. Selanne was the better goal-scorer and recorded higher scoring finishes. It's not like Kariya had anything resembling a defensive or physical game that might make up the difference.

Top 5 Scoring finishes from 1996-97 to 1998-99:

Selanne: 2,-,2
Kariya: 3,-,3

Top 5 Goal finishes:

Selanne: 2,1,1
Kariya: -,-,-
Terrible comparison.

So you're saying if we eliminate one of Kariya's best seasons (if not the best) and then look at seasons when he was hurt, missed games, or simply post Suter gooning.. Selanne was better?

Kariya was young and still improving when Suter gooned him. And he was already at least Selanne's equal and in fact widely considered better than him.

For all those people that want to say Kariya tailed off without Selanne.. have a look at 95-96 and see what he did when Selanne played only 28 games for the Ducks.

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04-17-2013, 02:40 PM
  #50
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Terrible comparison.
I compared 3 of the 4 seasons where they were both in Anaheim, but I should have also included 99-00, where Kariya was 4th in scoring, Selanne 5th, and Kariya was 5th in goals. That doesn't exactly change much.

Quote:
So you're saying if we eliminate one of Kariya's best seasons (if not the best) and then look at seasons when he was hurt, missed games, or simply post Suter gooning.. Selanne was better?
Okay let's add that season for Kariya (one where he was neither in the top 5 in goals nor assists) and Selanne's 1992/93, which gives him another 1st place goal-scoring finish and 5th place. Seems that the gap is just widening. Not to mention Selanne's combined stats for 1995/96 have him with 108 points...the same number as Kariya.

Quote:
Kariya was young and still improving when Suter gooned him. And he was already at least Selanne's equal and in fact widely considered better than him.
And I'm arguing that a lot of the "widely considered better than him" aspect was based on media hype, especially from THN and TSN, because he was the next great young Canadian superstar at a time were there were relatively few of them.

Quote:
For all those people that want to say Kariya tailed off without Selanne.. have a look at 95-96 and see what he did when Selanne played only 28 games for the Ducks.
And conversely, for all the media talked about how "Kariya is the straw that stirs the drink in Anaheim", when he went down in 1997/98 Selanne won the goal scoring title and was 2nd in points until he was shut down for the season with Anaheim eliminated from the playoffs and him playing through injury.

Simply put, there is really no substantive argument to put Kariya ahead of Selanne for the time period 1995-2000, much less claim Selanne was a half-step or even a full step below him. It's all based on flash, speculation, and more than a tinge of national bias.

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