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Should Ducks Retire Paul Kariya Jersey?

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Old
04-17-2013, 03:46 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
This is exactly what I mean when I say Selanne was better than Kariya. Selanne clearly, slightly but clearly has better offensive stats. He has better PPG finishes. Better raw numbers and better top-10 finishes. Neither of these two was anything special defensively and Selanne was more physical.

What exactly makes Kariya better? Media attention?
I think Kariya was slightly better than Selanne at things that weren't offense. He was captain of the Ducks and regularly penalty killed, which Selanne didn't. That said, I don't think either was particularly good at things that didn't involve scoring.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-17-2013 at 04:29 PM.
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Old
04-17-2013, 03:49 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Hardly outplayed and it wasnt hard for powerhouse Devils to shutdown the only real danger on the Ducks team.

Oates played the easier minutes and Kariya - Rucchin got shadowed to death.
Either your memory is failing you or you didn't see the games because Oates and Kariya had the same matchups - they were linemates (along with Sykora). Rucchin was on a line with Leclerc and Niedermayer and that line was arguably our best line all playoffs.

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04-17-2013, 03:50 PM
  #53
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While both being in Anaheim they were so ridiculously close to eachother.

PPG during their full seasons together: Selšnne 1.27 and Kariya 1.28 between 97-00. Between 96-01 Kariya has 1.25 while Selšnne is 1.22. The only difference between them is that Selšnne managed to play full seasons whila Kariya ran into injury problems.

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04-17-2013, 03:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Are you serious? Most of the people that objected to it being retired were fans that have been around since the 90s. Fans that actually remember how he lied to them and back-stabbed management.
Kariya is a punk plain and simple, really arrogant and looks disgusted when meeting fans when there's no camera around. I can definetely see him backstabbing the fanbase and management even if i dont remember it myself being an outsider.

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04-17-2013, 03:59 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I compared 3 of the 4 seasons where they were both in Anaheim, but I should have also included 99-00, where Kariya was 4th in scoring, Selanne 5th, and Kariya was 5th in goals. That doesn't exactly change much.
SeasonKariya PPGSelanne PPG
95-961.321.37 (1.29 with the Ducks though)
96-971.431.40
97-981.411.18
98-991.231.43
99-001.161.08
00-011.020.99

On a per game basis, Kariya outperformed Selanne most of the time they played together. He just missed time.

Obviously a pace can go either way with more games played, but he was trending more in the up direction until Suter crosschecked him in the face.

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Okay let's add that season for Kariya (one where he was neither in the top 5 in goals nor assists)
Yeah.. compare the leaderboard in 95-96 to the late 90s.

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and Selanne's 1992/93, which gives him another 1st place goal-scoring finish and 5th place. Seems that the gap is just widening. Not to mention Selanne's combined stats for 1995/96 have him with 108 points...the same number as Kariya.
92-93? What does that have to do with the Kariya and Selanne on the Ducks?

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And I'm arguing that a lot of the "widely considered better than him" aspect was based on media hype, especially from THN and TSN, because he was the next great young Canadian superstar at a time were there were relatively few of them.

And conversely, for all the media talked about how "Kariya is the straw that stirs the drink in Anaheim", when he went down in 1997/98 Selanne won the goal scoring title and was 2nd in points until he was shut down for the season with Anaheim eliminated from the playoffs and him playing through injury.

Simply put, there is really no substantive argument to put Kariya ahead of Selanne for the time period 1995-2000, much less claim Selanne was a half-step or even a full step below him. It's all based on flash, speculation, and more than a tinge of national bias.
Right. Because the "Finnish Flash" was a boring player in comparison.

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04-17-2013, 04:11 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
SeasonKariya PPGSelanne PPG
95-961.321.37 (1.29 with the Ducks though)
96-971.431.40
97-981.411.18
98-991.231.43
99-001.161.08
00-011.020.99

On a per game basis, Kariya outperformed Selanne most of the time they played together. He just missed time.
Several of those differences are minuscule and add up to a handful of points over a full season. The only one that shows any substantive difference is the one where Kariya played a small number of games and, not surprisingly, Selanne's PPG dropped as he had to play an entire season as the Ducks' only offensive threat (and with nagging injuries for much of it).

This is without even getting into the goal scoring aspect.

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Obviously a pace can go either way with more games played, but he was trending more in the up direction until Suter crosschecked him in the face.
Selanne's was also trending upwards, and he actually played the games.

What exactly is the point here anyway? That Kariya might have ended up being better if he hadn't been crossed checked in the face? Okay, well if we are playing that game of pure speculation let's imagine Selanne never tore his achilles tendon.

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Yeah.. compare the leaderboard in 95-96 to the late 90s.
What does that even mean? A lot of those players were the same guys. Sure, the raw totals were higher, but I was just considering top 5 finishes. If you are specifically talking about Mario, Selanne lost an Art Ross trophy to him in the late 1990s.

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92-93? What does that have to do with the Kariya and Selanne on the Ducks?
Are we talking about the players' "primes", only their time on the Ducks, or only their time on the Ducks together?

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Right. Because the "Finnish Flash" was a boring player in comparison.
A lot of the talk about Kariya being better seems to be based on stuff like speed and excitement. There's really not much actual substance behind it, other than PPG which I assign relatively little value to.

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04-17-2013, 04:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Several of those differences are minuscule and add up to a handful of points over a full season. The only one that shows any substantive difference is the one where Kariya played a small number of games and, not surprisingly, Selanne's PPG dropped as he had to play an entire season as the Ducks' only offensive threat (and with nagging injuries for much of it).

This is without even getting into the goal scoring aspect.
Yet the opposite argument is used against a post-Suter Kariya.

And if these differences are miniscule why are you clinging to the silly argument that there is no reasonable argument for Kariya?

Obviously, there is, especially considering their ages at the time. Kariya was at least at the same level as Selanne and at an age with more upside before getting face mashed.


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Selanne's was also trending upwards,
If you say so.

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and he actually played the games.
Agreed but he also didn't get cross checked in the face after a goal.

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Are we talking about the players' "primes", only their time on the Ducks, or only their time on the Ducks together?
There is a thread title.

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A lot of the talk about Kariya being better seems to be based on stuff like speed and excitement. There's really not much actual substance behind it, other than PPG which I assign relatively little value to.
Yeah cause there were a lot of smallish 21 year old 40-50 goal scoring & 100 point scoring left wingers in the dead puck era.

You can prefer Selanne all you like but to state that there is no reasonable way to prefer Kariya is pretty silly.

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04-17-2013, 04:27 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah cause there were a lot of smallish 21 year old 40-50 goal scoring & 100 point scoring left wingers in the dead puck era.

You can prefer Selanne all you like but to state that there is no reasonable way to prefer Kariya is pretty silly.
That's actually not what was started arguing, although I can see how the last sentence of that post may have came off that way. If you'll look back to where I got into this thread, I was arguing against the assertion that Selanne was a half-level or even full level below Kariya, and the comparison that the difference between them was like the difference between Wayne/Mario (I refuse to acknowledge eva's consistent attempts to put Yzerman in that tier) and everyone else in the 1980s.

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04-17-2013, 04:30 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Either your memory is failing you or you didn't see the games because Oates and Kariya had the same matchups - they were linemates (along with Sykora). Rucchin was on a line with Leclerc and Niedermayer and that line was arguably our best line all playoffs.
I watched game 1 of the series today most of that game it was Kariya - Rucchin . Niedermeyer and Leclerc - Oates - Sykora

Thats what I got it from.

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04-17-2013, 04:43 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
That's actually not what was started arguing, although I can see how the last sentence of that post may have came off that way. If you'll look back to where I got into this thread, I was arguing against the assertion that Selanne was a half-level or even full level below Kariya, and the comparison that the difference between them was like the difference between Wayne/Mario (I refuse to acknowledge eva's consistent attempts to put Yzerman in that tier) and everyone else in the 1980s.
Yeah I don't think there was a world of difference between them at that time. And they were so dynamic together too.

I do know Kariya was more highly regarded at the time, though.

My opinion is only that Kariya was younger, still improving and had more upside. He (and we) really got robbed of what was shaping up to be a special career by Suter.

Guy went 2/2 gooning Canadian stars and derailing them.

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04-17-2013, 04:56 PM
  #61
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I think he definitely deserves it. Kariya and Selanne were the faces of that franchise for a long time, and I think that type of player is especially important when a franchise is in its infancy. They both should get their numbers raised, and they should do it within a short time of each other (maybe even on the same night).

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04-17-2013, 05:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I watched game 1 of the series today most of that game it was Kariya - Rucchin . Niedermeyer and Leclerc - Oates - Sykora

Thats what I got it from.
And when that line didn't work Babcock went back to his original combo of Kariya, Oates and Sykora. 80% of the time he was with Oates and Sykora.

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04-17-2013, 05:33 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
While both being in Anaheim they were so ridiculously close to eachother.

PPG during their full seasons together: Selšnne 1.27 and Kariya 1.28 between 97-00. Between 96-01 Kariya has 1.25 while Selšnne is 1.22. The only difference between them is that Selšnne managed to play full seasons whila Kariya ran into injury problems.
And one of them held-out for 32 games while the other scored 24 of his team's 70 goals in those same games. I absolutely understand that Kariya wanted to make a statement against the organization, but yeah, that sort of thing comes up in the jersey retirement discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teemu Selanne, December 1997
I'm not going to complain about my contract. I knew at that time when I signed, if the only problem I would have was that I'm a little bit underpaid, things are pretty good.
I'm in favor of Kariya's number getting retired - or at least honored in the jade/eggplant colors - but I think it's kinda silly that some of you are getting hung up on proving that Kariya was better or Selanne was better based upon points-per-game numbers that are identical with fair context.

When Selanne had to play without Kariya for stretches in 1997 and 1999, he still put up goals/points, but it wasn't as high as the rate they cut together - hence the lower cumulative points-per-game than Kariya. Without Kariya in most of October 1996, Selanne scored 12 points in 11 games (1.09), then after getting reunited, Selanne posted 1.45 to Kariya's 1.43. Likewise in 1998 when Kariya held out and was injured, Selanne scored 56 points in 51 games (1.10), but together they scored 30 and 31 points respectively in 22 games - which makes that 1.41/1.18 figure BraveCanadian stated look a little flawed, as Kariya has a higher number because Selanne had to do it alone more often.

They were on the same level as players at their peaks 1996-1999. Kariya got more attention (and a Hart nomination) because the team played poorly without him in October 1996 but really well with both of their stars throughout the rest of the year. And then Selanne received the same attention and nomination the next season, albeit without the post-reunion success or the hype of having to fill Mario Lemieux's shoes as the next elite Canadian star.

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04-17-2013, 05:36 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
While both being in Anaheim they were so ridiculously close to eachother.

PPG during their full seasons together: Selšnne 1.27 and Kariya 1.28 between 97-00. Between 96-01 Kariya has 1.25 while Selšnne is 1.22. The only difference between them is that Selšnne managed to play full seasons whila Kariya ran into injury problems.
spot on. the numbers are important and do tell a lot, but the people who actually watched both players in their prime I find give the edge to kariya.

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04-17-2013, 05:38 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
SeasonKariya PPGSelanne PPG
95-961.321.37 (1.29 with the Ducks though)
96-971.431.40
97-981.411.18
98-991.231.43
99-001.161.08
00-011.020.99

On a per game basis, Kariya outperformed Selanne most of the time they played together. He just missed time.

Obviously a pace can go either way with more games played, but he was trending more in the up direction until Suter crosschecked him in the face.



Yeah.. compare the leaderboard in 95-96 to the late 90s.



92-93? What does that have to do with the Kariya and Selanne on the Ducks?



Right. Because the "Finnish Flash" was a boring player in comparison.


wow good argument. thanks for the stat comparisons!

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04-17-2013, 05:39 PM
  #66
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wow good argument. thanks for the stat comparisons!
Now read my post, so you can learn why it's a bad argument.

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04-17-2013, 05:45 PM
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And when that line didn't work Babcock went back to his original combo of Kariya, Oates and Sykora. 80% of the time he was with Oates and Sykora.
Yea, not saying you are wrong just explaining my statement...

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04-17-2013, 05:53 PM
  #68
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spot on. the numbers are important and do tell a lot, but the people who actually watched both players in their prime I find give the edge to kariya.
How about actual Ducks fans who saw every game of both while in Anaheim jerseys who in the thread you made on the Ducks board claim Selanne was the better player while both were here.

Fact is they were remarkably close. I give the edge to Selanne due to the fact he was in the lineup more frequently and for his superior goal scoring ability. The PPG argument for Kariya is extremely flawed as quoipourquoi points out in an earlier post.

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04-17-2013, 05:55 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Yea, not saying you are wrong just explaining my statement...
Yeah you're right he spent time with the Rucchin line and even took some shifts with Pahlsson and Thomas. The majority of the time he was with Oates and Sykora though. He was moved around a fair bit in the finals because nothing was working with his line - he was invisible offensively outside of game 6.

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04-17-2013, 06:11 PM
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How about actual Ducks fans who saw every game of both while in Anaheim jerseys who in the thread you made on the Ducks board claim Selanne was the better player while both were here.

Fact is they were remarkably close. I give the edge to Selanne due to the fact he was in the lineup more frequently and for his superior goal scoring ability. The PPG argument for Kariya is extremely flawed as quoipourquoi points out in an earlier post.
I made the PPG argument in response to the even more flawed point finishies argument.

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Yeah you're right he spent time with the Rucchin line and even took some shifts with Pahlsson and Thomas. The majority of the time he was with Oates and Sykora though. He was moved around a fair bit in the finals because nothing was working with his line - he was invisible offensively outside of game 6.
Well it seems like there was more than the Kariya juggling going on. Rob Niedermeyer was obviously Babcocks go to guy. Rucchin played alot too. Then we have Oates, Sykora and Kariya juggling with them and Leclerc being the guy to fill out the top-6.

I think Pahlsson played mostly with Chistov and Thomas right? Dont really remember the 4th line but I guess it was players like Krog and Bylsma.

But at the end I dont really think Kariya was outperformed by Oates. Oates had 3 assists or something in that series so that would explain the line juggling more. Devils simply shut the ducks team down (no pun intended). and thats much easier to do when you only one or two stars to focus on...

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04-17-2013, 06:17 PM
  #71
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Devils simply shut the ducks team down (no pun intended). and thats much easier to do when you only one or two stars to focus on...
Well, it wouldn't be a Mighty Ducks thread without someone making that comment.


Whose number goes up first: Kariya's or Giguere's?

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04-17-2013, 06:20 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well, it wouldn't be a Mighty Ducks thread without someone making that comment.


Whose number goes up first: Kariya's or Giguere's?
Well its true isnt it?

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04-17-2013, 06:20 PM
  #73
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Now read my post, so you can learn why it's a bad argument.
You made some good points too. Both Players are so close at their peaks. But there is a division of opinions.

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04-17-2013, 06:29 PM
  #74
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Hey, i made a thread about this in the Ducks Forum, and it got emotional with the Duck Fans that didnt really see him play in the 90s i found, and then the thread got closed. So i figured to try here and see what you guys think.
That's some revisionist history right there. There are plenty of Ducks fans who were around in the '90s watching almost all of the games Kariya played in a Ducks sweater (not just the highlight clips) who don't want his # retired.

Kariya was a great player who held most of the Ducks scoring records, but he has been surpassed by Selanne and possibly will be by passed by Getzlaf and Perry as well by the end of their careers. BUT, retiring #s isn't just about statistics; it also is about what the player meant to the organization and the legacy the player left. Kariya held out, not once, but twice, and refused to sign anything more than year-to-year contracts with the team during his last few years in Anaheim. He left on a bad note after the Ducks went to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals by by bolting to a loaded team at a huge discount instead of helping to build on what Murray and Babcock were tying to do with the Mighty Ducks.

Moreover, he has had little to no contact with the organization since he retired. Maybe it's a mutual thing, but it's like all his ties to the organization, except for Teemu, are severed. And the team gave his number to Bobby Ryan, so it doesn't seem like they are in a hurry to retire his number either.

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And how the heck is Bobby Ryan brave enough to wear #9 now for the ducks? I dont understand that one, if he was lighting up the stats i would have no problem. ?
The organization made that decision; they don't care what you think.

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04-17-2013, 06:33 PM
  #75
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That's some revisionist history right there. There are plenty of Ducks fans who were around in the '90s watching almost all of the games Kariya played in a Ducks sweater (not just the highlight clips) who don't want his # retired.

Kariya was a great player who held most of the Ducks scoring records, but he has been surpassed by Selanne and possibly will be by passed by Getzlaf and Perry as well by the end of their careers. BUT, retiring #s isn't just about statistics; it also is about what the player meant to the organization and the legacy the player left. Kariya held out, not once, but twice, and refused to sign anything more than year-to-year contracts with the team during his last few years in Anaheim. He left on a bad note after the Ducks went to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals by by bolting to a loaded team at a huge discount instead of helping to build on what Murray and Babcock were tying to do with the Mighty Ducks.

Moreover, he has had little to no contact with the organization since he retired. Maybe it's a mutual thing, but it's like all his ties to the organization, except for Teemu, are severed. And the team gave his number to Bobby Ryan, so it doesn't seem like they are in a hurry to retire his number either.



The organization made that decision; they don't care what you think.
I find this awfully similiar to how wings fans view Fedorov...

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