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04-17-2013, 01:54 PM
  #51
Jack de la Hoya
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The GM only drafts and signs the players. The problem with the development side lies with the coaching staff.
The G.M. hires the coaching staff, no?

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04-17-2013, 02:00 PM
  #52
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The G.M. hires the coaching staff, no?
Agreed. But I think the biggest problem is who is working with the defensemen coming through the pipeline (that being one Kjell Samuelsson). I've posted in great lengths about how not one defense propsect has prospered under his watch, yet he still remains with the organization. He was a problem Holmgren inherited. Hopefully it will be one that will be rectified.

As for other coaches, Kevin McCarthy has done a very good job at the young defensemen he's had the opportunity to work with. He'd done a good job (along with Pronger and Timonen) on helping Luke Schenn turn his game around and McCarthy has been given the task of keeping Gustafsson on track (and Gustafsson has really begun to put it all together). He's also done a great job in a short period of time working with Lauridsen (who is looking better and better every passing game).

The Flyers get rid of Smell Samuelsson and I think we'll begin to see young defensemen really prosper in the system

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04-17-2013, 03:09 PM
  #53
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Agreed. But I think the biggest problem is who is working with the defensemen coming through the pipeline (that being one Kjell Samuelsson). I've posted in great lengths about how not one defense propsect has prospered under his watch, yet he still remains with the organization. He was a problem Holmgren inherited. Hopefully it will be one that will be rectified.

As for other coaches, Kevin McCarthy has done a very good job at the young defensemen he's had the opportunity to work with. He'd done a good job (along with Pronger and Timonen) on helping Luke Schenn turn his game around and McCarthy has been given the task of keeping Gustafsson on track (and Gustafsson has really begun to put it all together). He's also done a great job in a short period of time working with Lauridsen (who is looking better and better every passing game).

The Flyers get rid of Smell Samuelsson and I think we'll begin to see young defensemen really prosper in the system
it's not really like Samuelsson has had much to work with down there the past 5 years or so. Lauridsen was a 7th rounder/project and that fact that he's playing in the NHL fairly well in only his 2nd pro yr of hockey actually says a lot about how he was developed/improved. Gus was an undrafted player out of college, again not a guy that many believed could put things together yet here he is, making a positive impact on an NHL roster. the fact that he's played 23+ minutes a night the past 3 games and has averaged about 19.5 minutes a night for the season and really hasn't disappointed says a lot. obviously these guys are getting these opportunities because of all the injuries but still.

the only real bust on D in recent memory is Marshall. it's not like you can turn any d man into a NHL defender, it just doesn't work that way so when you don't take d-men in higher draft rounds how can you expect to have any sort of pipeline for that position? my point is the flyers really have not taken higher round players in recent drafts for Samuelsson to even work with so can you really blame him? the scouting staff overall has done a fairly good job (cause they obviously found some decent players with low picks and out of the college UFA pool) and the players themselves like Gus and Lauridsen should be commended for putting in the hard work to get to where they are but do you really think that these guys got to where they are in spite of Samuelsson or even that he's done nothing to help them? i don't know, i'm just saying you can't give a guy garbage or extremely raw talents with major flaws and expect them to be turned into top 4 NHL defensemen.

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04-17-2013, 04:09 PM
  #54
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it's not really like Samuelsson has had much to work with down there the past 5 years or so. Lauridsen was a 7th rounder/project and that fact that he's playing in the NHL fairly well in only his 2nd pro yr of hockey actually says a lot about how he was developed/improved. Gus was an undrafted player out of college, again not a guy that many believed could put things together yet here he is, making a positive impact on an NHL roster. the fact that he's played 23+ minutes a night the past 3 games and has averaged about 19.5 minutes a night for the season and really hasn't disappointed says a lot. obviously these guys are getting these opportunities because of all the injuries but still.

the only real bust on D in recent memory is Marshall. it's not like you can turn any d man into a NHL defender, it just doesn't work that way so when you don't take d-men in higher draft rounds how can you expect to have any sort of pipeline for that position? my point is the flyers really have not taken higher round players in recent drafts for Samuelsson to even work with so can you really blame him? the scouting staff overall has done a fairly good job (cause they obviously found some decent players with low picks and out of the college UFA pool) and the players themselves like Gus and Lauridsen should be commended for putting in the hard work to get to where they are but do you really think that these guys got to where they are in spite of Samuelsson or even that he's done nothing to help them? i don't know, i'm just saying you can't give a guy garbage or extremely raw talents with major flaws and expect them to be turned into top 4 NHL defensemen.
Samuelsson has been the guy who has been assigned to develop the defensemen with the minor pro affiliate. He's had that job for almost 10 years now. It would be different if Samuelsson has only been doing this for two or three years, but it's been 10 years. At some point, the direction should be looked at Kjell's way as to why not a single defenseman has developed under his watch. Look at how badly some players have digressed (Manning in particular).

I have no confidence in Samuelsson what so ever. I'm not going to believe that in 10 years time, he couldn't develop at least one capable defender. Every defender he's ever sunk his claws into, they've either been ruined completely or cast off to another organization. With Hatcher now in the organization, he's the guy I want working with the defense prospects until Pronger's contract is complete and then that's the guy who should slide into that role.

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04-17-2013, 04:14 PM
  #55
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It's about time for the Flyers to start looking at what has been working for decades for teams like Detroit and New Jersey!
Sign him! He'll also be able to talk in his native language to Bryz. Perhaps the Flyers organization will finally fix the defense problem, rather than wait for a Pronger return.....and stop looking for a Pronger replacement!

To me, Pronger is the latest Forsberg. How long did it take the Flyers to get over that mistake?
I still see idiots posting for a Forsberg return each season!
For the simple fact Zaitsev appears to be a PMD, sign him. Timmonen may retire after next year. As scary as that sounds.

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04-17-2013, 05:26 PM
  #56
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For the simple fact Zaitsev appears to be a PMD, sign him. Timmonen may retire after next year. As scary as that sounds.
I think Timonen already said next year would be his last, didn't he? I know nothing of this Zaitsev guy, but a big PMD prospect can't hurt. Gotta be better than what we have outside of Ghost in terms of prospects.

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04-17-2013, 06:21 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Samuelsson has been the guy who has been assigned to develop the defensemen with the minor pro affiliate. He's had that job for almost 10 years now. It would be different if Samuelsson has only been doing this for two or three years, but it's been 10 years. At some point, the direction should be looked at Kjell's way as to why not a single defenseman has developed under his watch. Look at how badly some players have digressed (Manning in particular).

I have no confidence in Samuelsson what so ever. I'm not going to believe that in 10 years time, he couldn't develop at least one capable defender. Every defender he's ever sunk his claws into, they've either been ruined completely or cast off to another organization. With Hatcher now in the organization, he's the guy I want working with the defense prospects until Pronger's contract is complete and then that's the guy who should slide into that role.
Since 2002 the flyers have selected 5 defensemen in the first or second round. Pitkänen and Sbisa being the only 1st rounder and they obviously both turned out fine though one was moved. Marshall, Bodrov and Ratchuk were the 2nd rounders. Bodrov came to NA for all of 17 games before going back overseas so you have to exclude him from all this. That leaves Marshal and Ratchuk. They say about one quarter of 2nd rounders turn into NHL career players so the fact that neither of them turned out is just probability. The Flyers have taken 4 d-men in the 3rd round since 2002. Ghost (we won't know about him for a few year), Bartulis, Picard and Bourdon. Bourdon turned into a capable #6, 7 but he's injured. The other two spent short amounts of time in the NHL but obviously nothing substantial. As you would assume the percent of 3rd rounder ever have NHL careers is even lower then the aforementioned twenty five percent. Again just probability. In fact they say only about 12 percent of draft picks from the 3rd to 7th round ever make it to the NHL. i really think the flyers have good scouts but not so great that they simply blow these stats out of the water. With the number of picks the Flyers have had in the higher rounds i really don't understand what people expected.

as far as manning is concerned, that's just nonsense. he was mostly injured last season but when he did play he played well i'll give him that. he plays all of 4 NHL games and everyone is so excited that he's gonna be an everyday NHL d-man someday, like the flyers didn't already beat the odds by getting Gus out of college free agency. and how exactly has he regressed? cause he's having a bit of a tough time in his 2nd year of pro hockey? that happens. and btw his point totals from last year to this year are only off by about .1 ppg, which over an 76 game AHL season equates to about 8 points. not much of difference offensively if you ask me.

oh, and how exactly is it Samuelsson's fault when players get "cast off" to other organizations? it's not. I under stand wanting to get someone better, cause that always make sense and i won't sit here and argue that he's anything above average but you can't expect him to make something out of nothing. the flyers biggest problem is the fact that they simply don't draft D in higher rounds.

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04-17-2013, 06:24 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think Timonen already said next year would be his last, didn't he? I know nothing of this Zaitsev guy, but a big PMD prospect can't hurt. Gotta be better than what we have outside of Ghost in terms of prospects.
The one thing that zaitsev has going for him is that he is a 21 yr old who has 4 FULL seasons in the KHL. He has been playing against men already.

If he signs i fully expect him to be a last cut or make the team. Not hype at all though. Just where he is in his development. It all depends on how he adjusts.


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04-17-2013, 07:29 PM
  #59
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I think Timonen already said next year would be his last, didn't he? I know nothing of this Zaitsev guy, but a big PMD prospect can't hurt. Gotta be better than what we have outside of Ghost in terms of prospects.
He'll be 40 in two years anyway so he wont be the same player. Even if he did return. So yeah, I hope Zaitsev signs.

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04-17-2013, 08:19 PM
  #60
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He'll be 40 in two years anyway so he wont be the same player. Even if he did return. So yeah, I hope Zaitsev signs.
[said in super-projection voice and thunder and lightning in the background]

WHAT ARE MORTAL YEARS TO A NORSE GOD?

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04-17-2013, 09:27 PM
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[said in super-projection voice and thunder and lightning in the background]

WHAT ARE MORTAL YEARS TO A NORSE GOD?
It amazes me that one of the best defensemen to ever play for the flyers is so easily just brushed aside.

He's played in nearly every possible game, plays EXTREMELY hurt, and still produces. He's everything this city wants in a player...and yet...people can't wait to see him go.

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04-17-2013, 09:30 PM
  #62
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It amazes me that one of the best defensemen to ever play for the flyers is so easily just brushed aside.

He's played in nearly every possible game, plays EXTREMELY hurt, and still produces. He's everything this city wants in a player...and yet...people can't wait to see him go.
Who?

I don't think people are eager to see him go. I think we (rightly) see flaws in his game that weren't there 5 years ago--but that's to be expected.

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04-17-2013, 09:31 PM
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Since 2002 the flyers have selected 5 defensemen in the first or second round. Pitkänen and Sbisa being the only 1st rounder and they obviously both turned out fine though one was moved. Marshall, Bodrov and Ratchuk were the 2nd rounders. Bodrov came to NA for all of 17 games before going back overseas so you have to exclude him from all this. That leaves Marshal and Ratchuk. They say about one quarter of 2nd rounders turn into NHL career players so the fact that neither of them turned out is just probability. The Flyers have taken 4 d-men in the 3rd round since 2002. Ghost (we won't know about him for a few year), Bartulis, Picard and Bourdon. Bourdon turned into a capable #6, 7 but he's injured. The other two spent short amounts of time in the NHL but obviously nothing substantial. As you would assume the percent of 3rd rounder ever have NHL careers is even lower then the aforementioned twenty five percent. Again just probability. In fact they say only about 12 percent of draft picks from the 3rd to 7th round ever make it to the NHL. i really think the flyers have good scouts but not so great that they simply blow these stats out of the water. With the number of picks the Flyers have had in the higher rounds i really don't understand what people expected.

as far as manning is concerned, that's just nonsense. he was mostly injured last season but when he did play he played well i'll give him that. he plays all of 4 NHL games and everyone is so excited that he's gonna be an everyday NHL d-man someday, like the flyers didn't already beat the odds by getting Gus out of college free agency. and how exactly has he regressed? cause he's having a bit of a tough time in his 2nd year of pro hockey? that happens. and btw his point totals from last year to this year are only off by about .1 ppg, which over an 76 game AHL season equates to about 8 points. not much of difference offensively if you ask me.

oh, and how exactly is it Samuelsson's fault when players get "cast off" to other organizations? it's not. I under stand wanting to get someone better, cause that always make sense and i won't sit here and argue that he's anything above average but you can't expect him to make something out of nothing. the flyers biggest problem is the fact that they simply don't draft D in higher rounds.
The information posted in this thread http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1395481
highlights the difficulty when you try to stock your farm for 7-8 years without 1st and 2nd round picks. Its not a recipe for long term success.

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04-17-2013, 09:40 PM
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The information posted in this thread http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1395481
highlights the difficulty when you try to stock your farm for 7-8 years without 1st and 2nd round picks. Its not a recipe for long term success.
thanks, that's exactly what i'm talking about.

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04-17-2013, 09:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
It amazes me that one of the best defensemen to ever play for the flyers is so easily just brushed aside.

He's played in nearly every possible game, plays EXTREMELY hurt, and still produces. He's everything this city wants in a player...and yet...people can't wait to see him go.
Kimmo is leaving probably next year. Theres nothing anyone can do about it. I was just saying if he possibly did return after next season, he will be over 40 and not as good. No argument that he's our #1 right now.

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04-17-2013, 11:16 PM
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Anyone know when we find out if we get this guy?

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04-17-2013, 11:23 PM
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Anyone know when we find out if we get this guy?
Earlier post said that he can't do anything until April 30.

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04-17-2013, 11:51 PM
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[said in super-projection voice and thunder and lightning in the background]

WHAT ARE MORTAL YEARS TO A NORSE GOD?
Actually, Finland is technically not part of Scandinavia, and thus, Norse mythology is typically not associated with the Slavic people of Finland, who have their own mythology that actually predates most Norse tales.

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04-18-2013, 12:19 AM
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Who?

I don't think people are eager to see him go. I think we (rightly) see flaws in his game that weren't there 5 years ago--but that's to be expected.
And those flaws are miles below all of the positives he brings to the table.

I'm terrified how we will be without him. He's probably the best PPQB defenseman in the game today. He makes it look completely effortless.

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04-18-2013, 12:25 AM
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Timonen is 4th among all defensemen in points. On a team that has struggled terribly on offense.

Edit: Oh, and he's 3rd on the team in points scored. And second in the +/- department, which isn't bad at all considering the goaltending and his competition. He's on pace for 55 points in an 82 game season.

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04-18-2013, 05:13 AM
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Actually, Finland is technically not part of Scandinavia, and thus, Norse mythology is typically not associated with the Slavic people of Finland, who have their own mythology that actually predates most Norse tales.
Generally speaking they are not considered Germanic, Slavic or Romananic. I think Finno-Ugric is a more accurate term. Calling them Slavs is an oversimplification of a fairly complicated situation.


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04-18-2013, 06:18 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Timonen is 4th among all defensemen in points. On a team that has struggled terribly on offense.

Edit: Oh, and he's 3rd on the team in points scored. And second in the +/- department, which isn't bad at all considering the goaltending and his competition. He's on pace for 55 points in an 82 game season.
Norse gods have to rein it in to keep things fair.

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04-18-2013, 07:05 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
It amazes me that one of the best defensemen to ever play for the flyers is so easily just brushed aside.

He's played in nearly every possible game, plays EXTREMELY hurt, and still produces. He's everything this city wants in a player...and yet...people can't wait to see him go.
Who is brushing him aside?

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04-18-2013, 08:08 AM
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Generally speaking they are not considered Germanic, Slavic or Romananic. I think Finno-Ugric is a more accurate term. Calling them Slavs is an oversimplification of a fairly complicated situation.
The situation is indeed complicated, however evidence exists that could denote a Slavic lineage in some parts of Finland. So technically neither oversimplification is incorrect.
There are fuzzy lines in the connection between the countries language, which closely resembles hungarian or estonian, and its people's genetic origins.


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04-18-2013, 08:35 AM
  #75
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The situation is indeed complicated, however evidence exists that could denote a Slavic lineage in some parts of Finland. So technically neither oversimplification is incorrect.
There are fuzzy lines in the connection between the countries language, which closely resembles hungarian or estonian, and its people's genetic origins.
Reading the first part of your post I was actually gonna say "well if you consider Finns Slavs then you have to consider Estonians and Hungarians the same". I'm really not into anthropology (though I considered a career in archeology while in high school) so I'll take your word for it.

Finno-Ugric is a grouping based on language (not disimilar to the more commonly referenced Indo-European) which is not mutually exclusive from lineage by any means. It's a very broad term and when you think of it that way, as you said, neither is wrong. For example, calling Belarusians Slavs is certainly correct as is Indo-European.

Note: It seems your original point has gone unnoticed by the populous of HFboards anyhow

Btw Ukko is the name of a Finnish mythological god who was considered the god of the sky, thunder, weather in general and the harvest. The Finnish word for thunder, Ukkonen, is actually derived from the name of the god.


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