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Old
04-17-2013, 12:01 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I really don't think using Price's post-season W/L record in the playoffs is fair to him. Look at the teams he's played on:

2007-08: #1 seed (lost in round 2)
2008-09: #8 seed (lost in round 1)
2009-10: #8 seed (played 4 games, was not the starter)
2010-11: #6 seed (lost in round 1)
It's easier to just post his record as proof that he's not a "big time" goalie. I can get being disappointed with his career performance in the regular season, but I don't know how one can reasonably be upset with how he's been in the playoffs. He was very good against Boston and we lost 3 games in OT and the final goal was a flukey bounce off of Halpern's skate. The year before was all Halak, and the year before that was the most hopeless playoff series we've ever been a part of. His first playoff series wasn't spectacular, but was far better than most rookie goalies at the age of 21 could have done.

As you said, this year is pretty important. Team isn't as much of an excuse (although the D is looking paper thin lately) this year, so we'll see how he can respond to the pressures.

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04-17-2013, 04:21 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharks9 View Post
From Elliotte Friedman's 30 Thoughts:
Quote:
Texted a goalie coach Monday night about Carey Price. Asked what he thought. He thought I was overreacting. "He will be fine," was the reply. "I truly believe that." Entering last Saturday's game, Price had a .927 save percentage at even strength, which is good. (It's down to .923 after two ugly performances.) But, both he and Pekka Rinne have allowed 25 power-play goals, second-most in the NHL. No full-time starter is lower than his .811 percentage when killing penalties.
I was actually surprised at this. It made me pause. Then I thought, what the hell is that number anyway. It's just a number without context. So I decided to do the exercise for all goalies. I picked all the goalies with a name and everyone who played over 30 games.

Code:
    ES Save %:	PP Save %:	SH Save %:
Anderson	.955	.920	1.000
Brobo   	.938	.887	.947
Lundqvist	.936	.869	.947
Crawford	.935	.887	.875
Rask	        .935	.880	.952
Howard	.933	.862	.895
Fleury	.933	.855	.923
Schneider	.932	.898	.952
Niemi  	.931	.890	.932
Rinne   	.931	.826	.714
Holtby	.930	.851	.933
Fasth	        .928	.886	.900
Emery	.928	.903	.857
Bishop	.928	.869	1.000
Miller  	.928	.860	.846
Reimer	.927	.911	.917
Lunogo	.926	.828	.933
Price   	.921	.821	.970
Dubnyk	.921	.907	1.000
Lehtonen	.921	.891	.917
Scrivens	.920	.867	1.000
Smith   	.917	.862	.944
Ward    	.917	.862	.933
Backstrom	.916	.878	1.000
Nabokov	.916	.878	1.000
Pavalec	.916	.840	.917
Varlamov	.909	.871	.909
Quick 	.909	.856	.909
Lindback	.908	.896	.842
Bryzgalov	.905	.861	.880
Kuprusoff	.880	.812	.900
Price is 19th 5v5
Price is 31st 4v5

People often say that the most important player of a penalty kill is the goalie. Now I'll admit that we have sucked 4v5 but Price has been part of it too.

Also, amongst those who have a save % 5v5 lower than Price, only one other goalie has been worse than him 4v5 and it's the ancient Kiprusoff who's a few games away from retirement on one of the worse team in the league.

Truth is that no matter what people say, Price hasn't been very good this year. He just hasn't been, 5v5, 4v5 or otherwise.

Also, if this is the kind of reasoning that coaches used to vote him #1 in the east, then I guess this explains it. Also note that .927 from before the leafs game (which likely isn't the right number seeing how Friedman messed up the other numbers too), is still bad and still #17. So nothing great either.


Last edited by E = CH²: 04-17-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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Old
04-17-2013, 06:35 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by otto bond View Post
Let me ask you this, do you like Rinne? If yes, what would you have said wen he had that terrible week where he got pulled 3-4 games in a row?
The same thing I've said about Price now. Stick with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I really don't think using Price's post-season W/L record in the playoffs is fair to him. Look at the teams he's played on:

2007-08: #1 seed (lost in round 2)
2008-09: #8 seed (lost in round 1)
2009-10: #8 seed (played 4 games, was not the starter)
2010-11: #6 seed (lost in round 1)

The only time Price has ever been on a higher seeded team was also his rookie year. The other two times (three if you include his appearances during Halak's run) he would have had to perform above the norm to win the series. Which is not impossible, of course (case in point: Halak), but it shouldn't be a knock against him (or any goalie) if they fail to. That's why they're called upsets - they're the exceptions, not the norm.

Considering the team's success this year and where Price is at in his career, I think this will be a very decisive playoffs for him. He's on a good team, he's the bonafide starter, and he has gained enough playoff experience to know what to expect. The pieces are in place for him to succeed, we'll see if he does.
I hope we get past the first round, if we don't though I'm not going to lose faith in him. Sure would be nice to see him play well and have us advance though. If we don't, folks are going to freak out on him next year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So it's unfair to judge Price on his post-season based on how poor the teams were....but it's fair to say that Fleury was overrated based on how great his teams were? So which is it? You need to be middle of the pack to get the perfect recognition? And I don,t want to talk about him, but it is really possible that Carey suffers from the Halak comparison, 'cause Halak did wonders in the playoffs with same team Carey was playing for. So people are indeed expecting to see Carey doing the same type of miracles.

And can people stop with the rank we were in? People do realize that you have a better shot at knowing your team's value by going with the points instead? Was our 1st with Carbo, only leading the 8th place team by 10 points, just as good a 1st rank as any team with 20+points on the 8th place?

Oh and by the way.....people who always comes up with some excuses for Carey will come out with the fact that we lost Emelin, hence having a terrible D because of that. So don't worry...there's nothing like a decisive playoffs for him this year. Personnally, for another reason, I don't think it is decisive based on how that season went, short season, fatigue factor higher for some, lower for others and so on. I would say that next year is THE decisive factor. We will be good enough to make the playoffs. And we will need to go further than we did lately except this 3rd round.
He's barely played in the playoffs though. The only time I remember him being really bad was in his 2nd season when he came back too early from an injury and the team was pathetic. It's four and out. I write that off...

He's had mixed results but he's definitely had some great series in there too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
It's easier to just post his record as proof that he's not a "big time" goalie. I can get being disappointed with his career performance in the regular season, but I don't know how one can reasonably be upset with how he's been in the playoffs. He was very good against Boston and we lost 3 games in OT and the final goal was a flukey bounce off of Halpern's skate. The year before was all Halak, and the year before that was the most hopeless playoff series we've ever been a part of. His first playoff series wasn't spectacular, but was far better than most rookie goalies at the age of 21 could have done.

As you said, this year is pretty important. Team isn't as much of an excuse (although the D is looking paper thin lately) this year, so we'll see how he can respond to the pressures.
Yup. Good post.

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Old
04-17-2013, 06:50 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I was actually surprised at this. It made me pause. Then I thought, what the hell is that number anyway. It's just a number without context. So I decided to do the exercise for all goalies. I picked all the goalies with a name and everyone who played over 30 games.

Code:
    ES Save %:	PP Save %:	SH Save %:
Anderson	.955	.920	1.000
Brobo   	.938	.887	.947
Lundqvist	.936	.869	.947
Crawford	.935	.887	.875
Rask	        .935	.880	.952
Howard	.933	.862	.895
Fleury	.933	.855	.923
Schneider	.932	.898	.952
Niemi  	.931	.890	.932
Rinne   	.931	.826	.714
Holtby	.930	.851	.933
Fasth	        .928	.886	.900
Emery	.928	.903	.857
Bishop	.928	.869	1.000
Miller  	.928	.860	.846
Reimer	.927	.911	.917
Lunogo	.926	.828	.933
Price   	.921	.821	.970
Dubnyk	.921	.907	1.000
Lehtonen	.921	.891	.917
Scrivens	.920	.867	1.000
Smith   	.917	.862	.944
Ward    	.917	.862	.933
Backstrom	.916	.878	1.000
Nabokov	.916	.878	1.000
Pavalec	.916	.840	.917
Varlamov	.909	.871	.909
Quick 	.909	.856	.909
Lindback	.908	.896	.842
Bryzgalov	.905	.861	.880
Kuprusoff	.880	.812	.900
Price is 19th 5v5
Price is 31st 4v5

People often say that the most important player of a penalty kill is the goalie. Now I'll admit that we have sucked 4v5 but Price has been part of it too.

Also, amongst those who have a save % 5v5 lower than Price, only one other goalie has been worse than him 4v5 and it's the ancient Kiprusoff who's a few games away from retirement on one of the worse team in the league.

Truth is that no matter what people say, Price hasn't been very good this year. He just hasn't been, 5v5, 4v5 or otherwise.

Also, if this is the kind of reasoning that coaches used to vote him #1 in the east, then I guess this explains it. Also note that .927 from before the leafs game (which likely isn't the right number seeing how Friedman messed up the other numbers too), is still bad and still #17. So nothing great either.
Probably the best course of action would be to cheer for a different team. Since there are many teams/goalies that are better in the league it best if you cheer for them.


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04-17-2013, 07:02 PM
  #230
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He's not the biggest problem on the team, but I do feel he is the most overrated player in the NHL by a significant margin.

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04-17-2013, 07:15 PM
  #231
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If anyone thinks there's something REALLy wrong with Carey Price just needs to watch this game. No he's not playing great but it's the team that sucks collectively right now. Aside from a bad goal here and there, the bigger issue here is defense (from both the D and forwards) and a lack of sustainable presence in the offensive zone.

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04-17-2013, 07:25 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by dre2112 View Post
If anyone thinks there's something REALLy wrong with Carey Price just needs to watch this game. No he's not playing great but it's the team that sucks collectively right now. Aside from a bad goal here and there, the bigger issue here is defense (from both the D and forwards) and a lack of sustainable presence in the offensive zone.
ZERO confidence right now.

It is painful to watch.

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04-17-2013, 07:51 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by dre2112 View Post
If anyone thinks there's something REALLy wrong with Carey Price just needs to watch this game. No he's not playing great but it's the team that sucks collectively right now. Aside from a bad goal here and there, the bigger issue here is defense (from both the D and forwards) and a lack of sustainable presence in the offensive zone.
If there's one thing I've learned it is that Price has never been responsible for his own performances. It's always someone else's fault, unless, of course, he plays well. Then it's him.

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04-17-2013, 07:52 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
He's not the biggest problem on the team, but I do feel he is the most overrated player in the NHL by a significant margin.
He hasn't played well of late but I still don't give a flying **** about what you think to be honest.

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04-17-2013, 07:54 PM
  #235
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He hasn't played well of late but I still don't give a flying **** about what you think to be honest.
It's probably I good thing I have never asked you.

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04-17-2013, 07:55 PM
  #236
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It's probably I good thing I have never asked you.
"A" good thing. Fixed.

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04-17-2013, 08:02 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
If there's one thing I've learned it is that Price has never been responsible for his own performances. It's always someone else's fault, unless, of course, he plays well. Then it's him.
Actually no, when he plays bad, he plays bad.... I honestly believe that other than the Toronto game, his play hasn't been THAT bad. Definely blown out of proportion. Just look at this game and tell me how any of those goals were Price's fault? I would be blaming about 2-3 other players waaaay before him on those goals, yet we in montreal, just loooove ******** on goalies... When a goal goes in its the first thing 90% of people look on this board.... Just look at the replies after the goals... Carey price this Carey price that, it's just sad. We have other players people and believe it or not but they have been sucking just as hard if not worse than our goalies.

I have a feeling a lot of people just don't get how the game works or maybe they just have never played to find out, but a lot of the time, especially in higher leagues, when you give up scoring chances like candy, you arnt going to win.... Goaltending is a position based on percentages, and after a while, after giving up golden chance after golden chance, the puck isn't going to always hit the goalie.... After a while, the odds are that that puck is going to find that hole...

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04-17-2013, 08:10 PM
  #238
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I'm going to wait until the playoffs before passing judgment on his play but he's running out of excuses.

I want to see if he's the real deal and the only way to know is playoffs hockey.

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04-17-2013, 08:20 PM
  #239
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When you're not playing well, (he isn't) you need some luck (not getting any) and help from everyone else (not even close). This, as has been mentioned is shades of 2009 all over again. We need a complete team effort to play a tight defensive game. He also needs to put together a couple of superstar saves. Maybe a donnybrook to remind guys that they need to be there for each other.

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04-17-2013, 08:29 PM
  #240
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"A" good thing. Fixed.
All you got?

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04-17-2013, 10:04 PM
  #241
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Ouch I was honestly expecting a better perfomance from Budaj tonight, 3 so-so goals..

But honestly Price din't do much better all 3 goals were weak too...

I think Budaj should start tomorrow... You need at least one goalie with some confidence before the playoffs starts..

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04-17-2013, 10:11 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I was actually surprised at this. It made me pause. Then I thought, what the hell is that number anyway. It's just a number without context. So I decided to do the exercise for all goalies. I picked all the goalies with a name and everyone who played over 30 games.

Code:
    ES Save %:	PP Save %:	SH Save %:
Anderson	.955	.920	1.000
Brobo   	.938	.887	.947
Lundqvist	.936	.869	.947
Crawford	.935	.887	.875
Rask	        .935	.880	.952
Howard	.933	.862	.895
Fleury	.933	.855	.923
Schneider	.932	.898	.952
Niemi  	.931	.890	.932
Rinne   	.931	.826	.714
Holtby	.930	.851	.933
Fasth	        .928	.886	.900
Emery	.928	.903	.857
Bishop	.928	.869	1.000
Miller  	.928	.860	.846
Reimer	.927	.911	.917
Lunogo	.926	.828	.933
Price   	.921	.821	.970
Dubnyk	.921	.907	1.000
Lehtonen	.921	.891	.917
Scrivens	.920	.867	1.000
Smith   	.917	.862	.944
Ward    	.917	.862	.933
Backstrom	.916	.878	1.000
Nabokov	.916	.878	1.000
Pavalec	.916	.840	.917
Varlamov	.909	.871	.909
Quick 	.909	.856	.909
Lindback	.908	.896	.842
Bryzgalov	.905	.861	.880
Kuprusoff	.880	.812	.900
Price is 19th 5v5
Price is 31st 4v5

People often say that the most important player of a penalty kill is the goalie. Now I'll admit that we have sucked 4v5 but Price has been part of it too.

Also, amongst those who have a save % 5v5 lower than Price, only one other goalie has been worse than him 4v5 and it's the ancient Kiprusoff who's a few games away from retirement on one of the worse team in the league.

Truth is that no matter what people say, Price hasn't been very good this year. He just hasn't been, 5v5, 4v5 or otherwise.

Also, if this is the kind of reasoning that coaches used to vote him #1 in the east, then I guess this explains it. Also note that .927 from before the leafs game (which likely isn't the right number seeing how Friedman messed up the other numbers too), is still bad and still #17. So nothing great either.
I've read before that 4v5 save % fluctuates more wildly and seemingly more randomly than 5v5 %, implying that 5v5 is a better predictor of future performance. Not sure how true this is, haven't seen any charts or detailed write-ups trying to prove it.

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04-17-2013, 10:27 PM
  #243
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Price is all over the place. He's a good goalie but damn when will we figure out that giving out big contracts to goalie's in Montreal is a bad idea. Sheesh. I still think Price is going to be fine. He hasn't had just a bad stretch tho. He's been very inconsistent all year. It's just showing more now since our team isn't playing with structure.

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04-18-2013, 12:08 AM
  #244
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Man, Price got the loss even if he wasn't a starter. So, he got 1 win in the last 6 games now ? And Budaj has won the his last 7 ??? I'm not bashing Price here, I'm just stating a fact.
May I have a question: if the final score is 6-3, who will get the loss ? Budaj and Price both allowed 3 goals and Habs scored 3 goals, so who got the loss ?

It's true that if Price was more solid tonight, we may have a change to come back.

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04-18-2013, 12:23 AM
  #245
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Man, Price got the loss even if he wasn't a starter. So, he got 1 win in the last 6 games now ? And Budaj has won the his last 7 ??? I'm not bashing Price here, I'm just stating a fact.
May I have a question: if the final score is 6-3, who will get the loss ? Budaj and Price both allowed 3 goals and Habs scored 3 goals, so who got the loss ?

It's true that if Price was more solid tonight, we may have a change to come back.
it was 5-3 15 mins left in the period we had a chance.

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04-18-2013, 12:30 AM
  #246
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Price is all over the place. He's a good goalie but damn when will we figure out that giving out big contracts to goalie's in Montreal is a bad idea. Sheesh. I still think Price is going to be fine. He hasn't had just a bad stretch tho. He's been very inconsistent all year. It's just showing more now since our team isn't playing with structure.
Well that's not true price has been pretty consistent all year long, has he let in bad goals? Yes but that doesn't make him inconsistent.

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04-18-2013, 01:03 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
If there's one thing I've learned it is that Price has never been responsible for his own performances. It's always someone else's fault, unless, of course, he plays well. Then it's him.
did you not read where I said he wasn't playing good in my post that you quoted?

This board and a lot of Habs fans like to blame Price (or whoever the goalie was) for every time something goes wrong, but this is a lot deeper than Price. The defense, penalty kill, lack of a forecheck and lack of phsyical presence are a way bigger concern than the performance of Price... but the goalie is always the scapegoat in Montreal.

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04-18-2013, 01:24 AM
  #248
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Really wonder what's going on with him. This isn't just a slump. There's clearly something going on that's leading to him playing this atrocious.

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04-18-2013, 01:43 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
If there's one thing I've learned it is that Price has never been responsible for his own performances. It's always someone else's fault, unless, of course, he plays well. Then it's him.
That's what happen when you reach the "elite goalie" status.

Ask Buffalo fans when Miller have a bad stretch or ask Calgary fan about Kiprusoff bad stats in the past few years.

When their goalies have bad stats, fans will says: "Behind a good team, our goalie would be among the saves% leader." But when they have good stat, their goalie is the only reason why their team is competitive, without them they would be lottery teams.

in short, when a goalie reach the elite status, their team always play bad: if the team manage to have success, then its because of the great goaltending, if the team sucks, then its the team fault.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-18-2013 at 05:05 AM.
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04-18-2013, 06:39 AM
  #250
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I'm going to wait until the playoffs before passing judgment on his play but he's running out of excuses.

I want to see if he's the real deal and the only way to know is playoffs hockey.
It's sad that we're unsure whether he's the real deal or not after giving him a massive contract.

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