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Philadelphia Phillies (MLB): 2013 Regular Season

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Old
04-17-2013, 03:12 PM
  #351
zarley zelepukin
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Mayberry's got a good eye and consequently walks a lot too (5BB in 22AB). imo when the team is struggling offensively as they are now they need as many base-runners as possible. one of my main issues with Revere and the team in general in the early season is that they really doesn't walk enough. i didn't really expect Revere to change though and he was never a guy who walked a whole lot.
Agree about the lack of walks (I think this goes back to Amaro, which is my main gripe with him). I know Revere hasn't been a great on-base guy, but I did think he would do better than this. And it's still early. He does have enough patience at the plate to walk, but he puts the ball in play at an extremely high rate when he swings, and because of his lack of power, pitchers aren't afraid to challenge him when they get behind in the count.

I thought, since he's still a young guy, maybe with a slight uptick in power or a less extreme rate of putting the ball in play, he could bump his OBP from the .333 he had last year to near .350. That's what I'm still hoping for out of him.

There is some reason to be hopeful. His groundball rate is significantly higher than it was last year, when it was already crazy high. That will probably normalize and he'll get more hits.

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04-17-2013, 03:31 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
Yea, everyone makes mistakes. Gillick isn't perfect. But he also held onto core players in Utley, Howard, Rollins, Hamels. He brought in Rowand, Werth, Moyer, Feliz. He brought in the good versions Durbin and Lidge. When Gillick left, the Phillies were world champions, had arguably the best lineup in the league, a decent starting rotation anchored by the best homegrown Phillies pitcher since Roberts, a good bullpen, and a very nice farm system. All of this under a very manageable payroll.

In 2009, they were hit by the injury bug in the bullpen and Hamels had issues the entire year or else they would've won again. Gradually, things went downhill though. The payroll went up, the farm system was slowly depleted, and the Phillies kept getting older. Until we are now left with a bunch of veteran guys trying desperately to keep up with the next generation. This is poor general managing. All Amaro has done is essentially play fantasy baseball with what Gillick handed him. He got a bunch of ace pitchers, signed and traded for big names until they cut him off financially. Now we've got to deal with scrubs filling a lineup. It's nice to have the big names, but it's also nice to just grab an average guy every now and then.

And despite 102 wins, I don't think that was the best Phillies team in this era. I think they hit their peak in 2010. The lineup was still top notch and the rotation was great. Bullpen was not bad. They just ran into the worst matchup that year with the Giants and they couldn't score runs. In 2011, it was clear the lineup was on the downtrend and the incredible rotation was winning tons of low scoring games. Utley, Howard, and Rollins suffered from injuries all year. If the pitching wasn't perfect, the offense couldn't bail them out. Then in 2012, when Amaro came into the season with 3 positions filled with basically placeholders, that's when I was done with him.
-
As for Manuel, you may be right, switching the lineup may do nothing. However, what is sticking with the same thing again and again going to give us? Nothing. It's obvious it's not working so at least try something else. My choice would be Mayberry LF, Revere CF, and Brown RF (until D. Young). Then at least you wouldn't have to worry anymore about defense. Put Revere down in the lineup as there is way too much pressure on him right now. Just try anything. I'm so tired of hearing Charlie say he got a feeling so that's why he did something. Doing that every so often is fine, no sport is completely based on numbers. But just continually going with your gut and sticking with your guys until they crash into ball of flames is not going to work with a team that lacks the same talent as the past Phillies. You have to be creative and you've got to get involved, get mad. Charlie fills out the same lineup card, goes through the same motions with the same damn expression on his face every single game. And I can't take it anymore.
I pretty much agree, except for the bit about the farm system. The system didn't really start to produce much talent until the 08 draft. The guys Gillick won with who came from the farm system were all there from the Ed Wade years, and it was Mike Arbuckle (I think) who was running the minors at that time.

There wasn't much talent on the farm when Gillick was GM, and Gillick did trade the best player we developed in that time (Bourn) for Brad Lidge, who had one great year and then promptly declined. If the Phils didn't win in 08, that trade is probably looked at as a disaster. Even the trade for Blanton was seen as an overpay at the time iirc. Blanton was having a terrible year in Oakland and, though Adrian Cardenas seems to have washed out, he was a hot prospect at the time; probably top 2 or 3 in the Phils system. Feliz was supposed to hit too, but he ended up being a drag on the lineup. But we overlook that because he was on the WS winner.

But back to Amaro, the (first) Pence trade was awful. The Howard extension was foolish. Trading Lee to Seattle necessitated trading for Oswalt the next year, which cost us good prospects, but I'm not sure that was his idea. Seemed like more of a move to save ownership some cash. I don't count myself as a fan of his, but he did make a good team better in 2009-2011 (and you make a valid argument for the 2010 team being better than 2011. I think it's pretty close since the biggest difference was -Jayson Werth and +Cliff Lee.) The Phils could easily have won a WS in one of those years had they gotten some better breaks.

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04-17-2013, 04:41 PM
  #353
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Aumont just failed... Wasn't helped by the error though...

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Old
04-17-2013, 04:42 PM
  #354
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That was pathetic.

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Old
04-17-2013, 04:52 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I pretty much agree, except for the bit about the farm system. The system didn't really start to produce much talent until the 08 draft. The guys Gillick won with who came from the farm system were all there from the Ed Wade years, and it was Mike Arbuckle (I think) who was running the minors at that time.

There wasn't much talent on the farm when Gillick was GM, and Gillick did trade the best player we developed in that time (Bourn) for Brad Lidge, who had one great year and then promptly declined. If the Phils didn't win in 08, that trade is probably looked at as a disaster. Even the trade for Blanton was seen as an overpay at the time iirc. Blanton was having a terrible year in Oakland and, though Adrian Cardenas seems to have washed out, he was a hot prospect at the time; probably top 2 or 3 in the Phils system. Feliz was supposed to hit too, but he ended up being a drag on the lineup. But we overlook that because he was on the WS winner.

But back to Amaro, the (first) Pence trade was awful. The Howard extension was foolish. Trading Lee to Seattle necessitated trading for Oswalt the next year, which cost us good prospects, but I'm not sure that was his idea. Seemed like more of a move to save ownership some cash. I don't count myself as a fan of his, but he did make a good team better in 2009-2011 (and you make a valid argument for the 2010 team being better than 2011. I think it's pretty close since the biggest difference was -Jayson Werth and +Cliff Lee.) The Phils could easily have won a WS in one of those years had they gotten some better breaks.
The thing about both those moves is that they worked out. Sure you can say Lidge declined but he had a perfect season and Blanton was practically undefeated after the trade. He got two guys who looked bad and they came over here and did amazing. He must have seen something in those guys and it paid off. Bourn is good but I do that trade every single day of the week. Lidge's injuries really hurt him in the end, but that perfect season was awesome.

And while most of the young guys were up in the majors by that point, the Phillies still had talent. There's no way they would've been able to trade for Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay without some good looking prospects. Alot didn't pan out but at the end of 2008, the Phillies were a top ten team in high ceiling young talent in the minors based on Baseball Prospectus prospect rankings. They didn't have any guys ready to jump into the majors immediately but they did have a lot of talent in the lower levels especially which is perfect for a already young 2008 majors team.

But anyway, a lot of this is just the past. My problem is right now both Amaro and Charlie are not right for the team now. That's what's frustrating me the most. A lot of leeway is given based on past achievements and we already wasted a year because of this.

Also, lol, it took the Phillies 10 minutes to lose the game from last night. Seems kind of stupid to stop it in the bottom of the ninth last night but whatever.

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04-17-2013, 05:14 PM
  #356
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I didn't bother trying to watch.

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Old
04-17-2013, 05:27 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
My biggest problem with Amaro is his signing free agents for way more than anyone else is willing to pay. Ibanez, Howard, Pabelbon, Polanco, etc. Then his constant trading of the farm and the signing of over the hill relievers comes next.

I liked the Halladay trade and the trade for Lee, most of those prospects didn't turn out to be much. But he has no ability to make the little moves like Gillick used to. In 2008, trading for Blanton and grabbing Stairs off waivers didn't make waves but they were smart moves. Ruben just kept overpaying for everyone in sight until the Phillies cut him off, leaving us with a massive payroll and a mediocre team. Now the owners don't want to pay anymore and we don't have anyone to bring up.

The Phillies management since Gillick left has just gradually gotten worse. Just a couple young power hitters would do the world for the lineup. Everything depends on Utley, Rollins, and Howard, and they just can't bail the team out like they used to.
You sir, seem to think along the same lines as me regarding our GM. I completely agree with this post.

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04-17-2013, 07:24 PM
  #358
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well, we really came out firing on all cylinders today.

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Old
04-17-2013, 07:28 PM
  #359
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We going for two games without a run =D

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04-17-2013, 07:51 PM
  #360
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Maybe if they get embarrassed they will actually do something. Doubt it.

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04-17-2013, 08:00 PM
  #361
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Just checked the score on MLB.com and laughed.

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04-17-2013, 08:03 PM
  #362
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This team is hilarious... two hits. Players need a wake up call

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Old
04-17-2013, 08:08 PM
  #363
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There needs to be a mercy rule. This is just embarrassing.

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04-17-2013, 08:10 PM
  #364
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There needs to be a mercy rule. This is just embarrassing.
I only wish

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04-17-2013, 08:11 PM
  #365
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The entire offense has been Michael young and Utley. After that, nobody is hitting right now.

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04-17-2013, 08:21 PM
  #366
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Lol, they are really about to go the whole series scoring two runs, both from Utley. One player has contributed this entire series. Mindblowing.

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04-17-2013, 08:39 PM
  #367
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04-17-2013, 09:00 PM
  #368
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28 innings without drawing a walk. Ridiculous.

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04-17-2013, 11:01 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by jml87 View Post
The thing about both those moves is that they worked out. Sure you can say Lidge declined but he had a perfect season and Blanton was practically undefeated after the trade. He got two guys who looked bad and they came over here and did amazing. He must have seen something in those guys and it paid off. Bourn is good but I do that trade every single day of the week. Lidge's injuries really hurt him in the end, but that perfect season was awesome.

And while most of the young guys were up in the majors by that point, the Phillies still had talent. There's no way they would've been able to trade for Cliff Lee or Roy Halladay without some good looking prospects. Alot didn't pan out but at the end of 2008, the Phillies were a top ten team in high ceiling young talent in the minors based on Baseball Prospectus prospect rankings. They didn't have any guys ready to jump into the majors immediately but they did have a lot of talent in the lower levels especially which is perfect for a already young 2008 majors team.

But anyway, a lot of this is just the past. My problem is right now both Amaro and Charlie are not right for the team now. That's what's frustrating me the most. A lot of leeway is given based on past achievements and we already wasted a year because of this.
My point is just basically that both guys have made moves that worked and moves that didn't. Playoff success isn't the way to judge a GM. It's too much of a crapshoot.

And I don't disagree that Amaro has weakened the farm with his moves, but Gillick was doing the same thing, to an extent. The way we view Gillick's tenure versus the GMs that preceded and followed him will always be affected by the WS. Is that fair? I would say yes and no, but mostly no.

Anyway, I would probably have to agree that Charlie and Ruben aren't the right fits right now. In fact, I'm not sure Ruben is a fit for any organization that's living in this century. Has it really been 28 innings since we've walked? That's a complete joke. And it's largely Amaro's fault.

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04-18-2013, 12:09 AM
  #370
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My point is just basically that both guys have made moves that worked and moves that didn't. Playoff success isn't the way to judge a GM. It's too much of a crapshoot.

And I don't disagree that Amaro has weakened the farm with his moves, but Gillick was doing the same thing, to an extent. The way we view Gillick's tenure versus the GMs that preceded and followed him will always be affected by the WS. Is that fair? I would say yes and no, but mostly no.

Anyway, I would probably have to agree that Charlie and Ruben aren't the right fits right now. In fact, I'm not sure Ruben is a fit for any organization that's living in this century. Has it really been 28 innings since we've walked? That's a complete joke. And it's largely Amaro's fault.
The big issue is really no one outside of Utley will actually take a walk or look for it. The problem is he is currently the only source of driving in runs so he's not going to be taking them like he normally does. Then we got Howard and Rollins who almost never take them. Revere, no. Young, not really. Kratz, Nix, ha. Brown will take them but yeah he's been pressing to get big hits too. A lot of the lack of walks comes from guys with bad plate discipline and others trying to do much rather than just get on base.

Yeah and Amaro: "I don't care about walks," Amaro said in January. "I care about production. To be frank with you, I've said this all along. All of the Sabrematricians and all of the people who think they know exactly what makes a good club . . . to me, it's more about run production and being able to score runs and drive in runs."

Kind of have to have people on base to drive in those runs, Ruben. Sigh.

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04-18-2013, 01:01 AM
  #371
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The big issue is really no one outside of Utley will actually take a walk or look for it. The problem is he is currently the only source of driving in runs so he's not going to be taking them like he normally does. Then we got Howard and Rollins who almost never take them. Revere, no. Young, not really. Kratz, Nix, ha. Brown will take them but yeah he's been pressing to get big hits too. A lot of the lack of walks comes from guys with bad plate discipline and others trying to do much rather than just get on base.

Yeah and Amaro: "I don't care about walks," Amaro said in January. "I care about production. To be frank with you, I've said this all along. All of the Sabrematricians and all of the people who think they know exactly what makes a good club . . . to me, it's more about run production and being able to score runs and drive in runs."

Kind of have to have people on base to drive in those runs, Ruben. Sigh.
Yeah, I went a little ******* the first time I read that quote. He doesn't care about things than helps you score runs, he just cares about scoring runs.

All I was really hoping for from the offense this year was to be middle of the pack, or slightly better. I think that's doable, but the lack of "on base" guys is the biggest thing holding them back. They said on a broadcast a few games ago that whichever team leads the league in walks averages 95 wins. No coincidence.

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04-18-2013, 06:55 AM
  #372
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Fire Ruben. Fire Charlie, or make him some talent consultant bs. Blow team up. Should have started last year with Lee and Chooch.

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04-18-2013, 11:57 AM
  #373
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That quote about walks is terribly stupid.

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Old
04-18-2013, 12:07 PM
  #374
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Weird that to develop runs, people have to be on base. It sucks that there is no way to get on base besides hitting if you are having a cold streak...

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04-18-2013, 12:10 PM
  #375
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28 innings without drawing a walk. Ridiculous.
What's ridiculous is that the manager is supposed to be a hitting guru and allows his players to be undisciplined at the plate.

It's time for Charlie to go and move Sandberg from 3rd base into the dugout.

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