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Should Ducks Retire Paul Kariya Jersey?

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Old
04-17-2013, 05:38 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Well its true isnt it?
Oh, absolutely. It's the same thing that killed them in the 1997 and 1999 playoffs against Detroit, when it was 20 minutes of containing the Mighty Ducks' top-line and 40 minutes of out-matching the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines.

I wouldn't write home about any of those skaters during those Dead Puck Era playoff runs, because the only series in which they had room to breathe was against the 1997 Coyotes. They were a team built to sell tickets - not a team built to win a seven-game playoff series. Kariya's 2003 playoff is, to me, like Brodeur's 2001 playoff. It's not a shining moment of their careers, and under normal circumstances, their playoffs wouldn't have been stretched beyond one series - which is the only reason why they look so bad.

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04-17-2013, 05:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by la patineuse View Post
And the team gave his number to Bobby Ryan, so it doesn't seem like they are in a hurry to retire his number either.
They gave away Rucchin's #20 and Selanne's #8 a lot faster than they gave away Kariya's #9, so as jarring as it was, we probably should have seen it coming.

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04-17-2013, 05:47 PM
  #78
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His number should be retired at the same time they retire Teemu Selšnne's. They were the Anaheim Ducks two best forwards for much of their history, and two of the best forwards leaguewide for a number of years. Fittingly, they are #1 and #2 in all scoring records (points, goals, assists) and really put the Anaheim Ducks on the map in their early years.

Someone above said Selšnne "led them to a Stanley Cup, something Kariya never did." This is asinine comment no matter how you look at it. First of all, hockey is a team sport and the 06-07 Anaheim Duck's Stanley Cup winning team was an outstanding team, in which Selšnne was perhaps the 4th-7th most important player. Arguably, all of Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Francois Beauchemin, J.S. Giguere, Samuel Pahlsson and Ryan Getzlaf played a more prominent role in that run than Selšnne who saw his production significantly drop in contrast to the regular season (.58 GPG/ 1.14 PPG regular season vs .23 GPG / .71 PPG postseason). Moreover, lest we forget that Kariya played the exact same role as Selanne in the Anaheim Ducks 02-03 Stanley Cup run, where they went to Game 7 of the SCF on the backs of Giguere, the shutdown line and an offense that leaned on scoring by committee?

All in all, both players were hugely important to the entrenchment of the Ducks as a team to be reckoned with, individually achieving great personal and team success throughout their tenure in the uniform and combining to make one of the best duos in NHL history.

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04-17-2013, 06:10 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
How about actual Ducks fans who saw every game of both while in Anaheim jerseys who in the thread you made on the Ducks board claim Selanne was the better player while both were here.

Fact is they were remarkably close. I give the edge to Selanne due to the fact he was in the lineup more frequently and for his superior goal scoring ability. The PPG argument for Kariya is extremely flawed as quoipourquoi points out in an earlier post.

I dont know, i never got a clear answer from the members who supported Selanne when i asked if they Actually watched Kariya in the 90s, i asked buddy if he was 16 yrs of age(he was calling me names, like moron ect lol) he didnt deny it?


Im gonna be 30 in a couple of months, i remember watching Kariya play real well. I wasnt 4 or 5 and vaguely remembered. i Take it you are probably around the same age or older and actually got to see 2 great players perform.

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04-17-2013, 06:10 PM
  #80
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If he gets in the HHoF, fine. Otherwise, get real guys. We don't need more than 255 retired numbers in the NHL. Take Les Habs for example. They have plenty of banners hanging from the rafters without Tremblay's.

Montreal Canadiens retired numbers

1 Jacques Plante G 1953-63 October 7, 1995
2 Doug Harvey D 1947-61 October 26, 1985
3 Emile Bouchard D 1941-56 December 4, 2009
4 Jean Beliveau C 1952-71 October 9, 1971
5 Bernie Geoffrion RW 1950-64 March 11, 2006
7 Howie Morenz C 1923-34 November 2, 1937
9 Maurice Richard RW 1943-60 October 6, 1960
10 Guy Lafleur RW 1971-85 February 16, 1985
12 Dickie Moore LW 1953-63 November 12, 2005
Yvan Cournoyer RW 1964-79 November 12, 2005
16 Henri Richard C 1955-75 December 10, 1975
Elmer Lach C 1940-54 December 4, 2009
18 Serge Savard D 1967-81 November 18, 2006
19 Larry Robinson D 1972-89 November 19, 2007
23 Bob Gainey LW 1974-89 February 23, 2008
29 Ken Dryden G 1970-79 January 29, 2007
33 Patrick Roy G 1985-95 November 22, 2008
99 1 Wayne Gretzky C - February 6, 2000[34]

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04-17-2013, 06:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
When Selanne had to play without Kariya for stretches in 1997 and 1999, he still put up goals/points, but it wasn't as high as the rate they cut together - hence the lower cumulative points-per-game than Kariya. Without Kariya in most of October 1996, Selanne scored 12 points in 11 games (1.09), then after getting reunited, Selanne posted 1.45 to Kariya's 1.43. Likewise in 1998 when Kariya held out and was injured, Selanne scored 56 points in 51 games (1.10), but together they scored 30 and 31 points respectively in 22 games - which makes that 1.41/1.18 figure BraveCanadian stated look a little flawed, as Kariya has a higher number because Selanne had to do it alone more often.
Annnd when Kariya was mostly without Selanne, but hadn't had his brain scrambled yet - he was a 50 goal 100 point solo act.

What is your point?

Quote:
They were on the same level as players at their peaks 1996-1999. Kariya got more attention (and a Hart nomination) because the team played poorly without him in October 1996 but really well with both of their stars throughout the rest of the year. And then Selanne received the same attention and nomination the next season, albeit without the post-reunion success or the hype of having to fill Mario Lemieux's shoes as the next elite Canadian star.
Annnnd because he was a very talented hockey player who scored 50 goals and 100 points in 95-96 when Selanne only played 28 games for the Ducks.

I mean I know Selanne has ended up with the better career but you guys really are revising Kariya's talent before getting gooned.

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04-17-2013, 07:10 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
They gave away Rucchin's #20 and Selanne's #8 a lot faster than they gave away Kariya's #9, so as jarring as it was, we probably should have seen it coming.
Yeah, that would make sense.

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04-17-2013, 07:11 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by la patineuse View Post



The organization made that decision; they don't care what you think.
i was implying the player not to want to wear the # out of respect for a fellow Hockey Player who made that # Famous in that town...

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04-17-2013, 07:34 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
If he gets in the HHoF, fine. Otherwise, get real guys. We don't need more than 255 retired numbers in the NHL. Take Les Habs for example. They have plenty of banners hanging from the rafters without Tremblay's.
A player can have a tremendous impact on a team as well as be one of the NHL's premier scorers without making the HHOF. For example, Shane Doan will likely see his number raised in Phoenix, but there is no way in hell he is inducted into the HHOF. There are several other examples as well. And using the Montreal Canadiens, the most storied NHL franchise or even the most storied franchise in all of sports is a pretty ridiculous way to prove your point.

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04-17-2013, 08:03 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Wayne/Mario (I refuse to acknowledge eva's consistent attempts to put Yzerman in that tier)
Recognizing Yzerman as the best "mortal" forward of his era is not "trying to put him in the Wayne/Mario" tier. I separated Yzerman with those two in my statement because his peak was clearly well above what anyone else in the era did. You had your guys like LaFontaine, Oates, Turgeon, Gilmour, Francis, Savard, Hawerchuk, and Yzerman's peak was on a completely different level from what those guys did. He's still notably below Wayne/Mario, but there's a separation between his peak and that of the other top centers he was competing against. Hence the "Yzerman, Gretzky, and Lemieux" comment.

It's like saying "When you consider peak play of 80s defensemen, there's a clear separation after Coffey, Bourque, Howe, and Chelios"

Does that put them all on the same tier? Or does it just mean that there's a noticeable gap at that point?

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04-17-2013, 08:04 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I made the PPG argument in response to the even more flawed point finishies argument.

Well it seems like there was more than the Kariya juggling going on. Rob Niedermeyer was obviously Babcocks go to guy. Rucchin played alot too. Then we have Oates, Sykora and Kariya juggling with them and Leclerc being the guy to fill out the top-6.

I think Pahlsson played mostly with Chistov and Thomas right? Dont really remember the 4th line but I guess it was players like Krog and Bylsma.

But at the end I dont really think Kariya was outperformed by Oates. Oates had 3 assists or something in that series so that would explain the line juggling more. Devils simply shut the ducks team down (no pun intended). and thats much easier to do when you only one or two stars to focus on...
Yeah the third line was mostly Chistov - Pahlsson - Thomas and the 4th line was a bit of everyone with Krog the only guy who played in all the games. Chouinard saw significant time there as well and Bylsma/Smirnoff/Kjellberg were used as well (Kjellberg went home halfway through the playoffs).

And I think he was outplayed by Oates (among others). Oates was better defensively and he won the faceoff that Salei scored the GWG off in game 3 which gave us life in the series. And over the whole playoffs Oates was the more impressive player. Kariya was probably the 6th or 7th most important guy over the whole run which isn't good enough considering he was being paid $10M.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Well, it wouldn't be a Mighty Ducks thread without someone making that comment.


Whose number goes up first: Kariya's or Giguere's?
Giguere's is going up - Kariyas won't be. Management has refused to let a couple of guys wear #35 since Jiggy left but had no issue giving #9 to Bobby. That should say all you need to know about which number they intend to retire.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
They gave away Rucchin's #20 and Selanne's #8 a lot faster than they gave away Kariya's #9, so as jarring as it was, we probably should have seen it coming.
They gave away Selannes #8 because he hadn't done enough at that point to get his number retired. Without his second tour of duty here there's no way Teemu gets his number retired. Burke said to him at the beginning of 2006-07 if he wanted to swap back to #8 because whatever number he wore from then on out would be retired by the franchise (he was wearing 13 the year before because Ozolinsh was still around).

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04-17-2013, 09:07 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post


Giguere's is going up - Kariyas won't be. Management has refused to let a couple of guys wear #35 since Jiggy left but had no issue giving #9 to Bobby. That should say all you need to know about which number they intend to retire.
).
what players wanted to wear #35 and got rejected by management?

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04-17-2013, 09:21 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Starkiller View Post
what players wanted to wear #35 and got rejected by management?
Toskala and IIRC one of Ellis/Emery wanted it as well.

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04-17-2013, 10:27 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
If he gets in the HHoF, fine. Otherwise, get real guys. We don't need more than 255 retired numbers in the NHL. Take Les Habs for example. They have plenty of banners hanging from the rafters without Tremblay's.

Montreal Canadiens retired numbers

1 Jacques Plante G 1953-63 October 7, 1995
2 Doug Harvey D 1947-61 October 26, 1985
3 Emile Bouchard D 1941-56 December 4, 2009
4 Jean Beliveau C 1952-71 October 9, 1971
5 Bernie Geoffrion RW 1950-64 March 11, 2006
7 Howie Morenz C 1923-34 November 2, 1937
9 Maurice Richard RW 1943-60 October 6, 1960
10 Guy Lafleur RW 1971-85 February 16, 1985
12 Dickie Moore LW 1953-63 November 12, 2005
Yvan Cournoyer RW 1964-79 November 12, 2005
16 Henri Richard C 1955-75 December 10, 1975
Elmer Lach C 1940-54 December 4, 2009
18 Serge Savard D 1967-81 November 18, 2006
19 Larry Robinson D 1972-89 November 19, 2007
23 Bob Gainey LW 1974-89 February 23, 2008
29 Ken Dryden G 1970-79 January 29, 2007
33 Patrick Roy G 1985-95 November 22, 2008
99 1 Wayne Gretzky C - February 6, 2000[34]

Get real. Habs is one of the oldest and most successful franchises there is. How in hell is a young team supposed to build a legacy and respect their pioneers without retiring their franchise most important players numbers?

There are teams who have yet gotten a single HoF player. Wuld you please tell me if Teppo Numinen was worthy of jersey retirement or not? If not, please explain it to me some other way than "if he played for the habs he would not have his nuber retired".

Entitlement at its best.

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04-17-2013, 11:05 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Annnd when Kariya was mostly without Selanne, but hadn't had his brain scrambled yet - he was a 50 goal 100 point solo act.

What is your point?
My point is that your statement that "Kariya outperformed Selanne most of the time they played together" is false, because it was based around Kariya's PPG being higher than Selanne's in 1997 and 1998 - which is only because Kariya played all of his games in those seasons with Teemu Selanne also in the lineup whereas Selanne played lengthy stretches of those seasons without Kariya but perfectly equaled Kariya's PPG in the games they played together.

In other words, you're comparing Kariya's level of play with Selanne against an average of Selanne's level of play both with and without Kariya. Selanne has the same PPG as Kariya in the games they played together, but unlike Kariya, his cumulative numbers are dragged down by games in which he physically showed up and Kariya did not.

Your chart is misleading, as is your statement that Kariya was a 50 goal player without Teemu Selanne. Paul Kariya had 29 Goals and 64 Points in 54 Games (pace of 44 Goals and 97 Points; 13th/16th in the league) without Selanne in 1995-96 and 21 Goals and 44 Points in 28 Games with Selanne in 1995-96.


I don't expect anyone to get everything right when it comes to numbers, but your math has too many glaring mistakes for you to be offering up condescending "Annnnd"s.

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04-18-2013, 07:20 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Recognizing Yzerman as the best "mortal" forward of his era is not "trying to put him in the Wayne/Mario" tier. I separated Yzerman with those two in my statement because his peak was clearly well above what anyone else in the era did. You had your guys like LaFontaine, Oates, Turgeon, Gilmour, Francis, Savard, Hawerchuk, and Yzerman's peak was on a completely different level from what those guys did. He's still notably below Wayne/Mario, but there's a separation between his peak and that of the other top centers he was competing against. Hence the "Yzerman, Gretzky, and Lemieux" comment.

It's like saying "When you consider peak play of 80s defensemen, there's a clear separation after Coffey, Bourque, Howe, and Chelios"

Does that put them all on the same tier? Or does it just mean that there's a noticeable gap at that point?
Let's get back to the main point: what is your justification for claiming that sort of gap exists for Kariya over Selanne?

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04-18-2013, 07:26 AM
  #92
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I made the PPG argument in response to the even more flawed point finishies argument.
How exactly is it flawed (let alone more flawed than PPG numbers)? It reflects on how the players did over a full season against their peers at the time. The fact remains that Teemu Selanne lost two Art Ross trophies to two of the top four offensive forwards of all-time (yep, I went there) - or does that kind of thing only apply to Yzerman? At the same time he finished first or second in goals multiple times. Kariya never lost a statistical trophy to a generational player.

quoipourquoi has done a fantastic job picking apart the PPG argument and why it's so flawed, so I won't bother to repeat that.

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04-18-2013, 08:00 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Selanne has the same PPG as Kariya in the games they played together
Ok.

I'm glad you then agree with my actual point - that the inference that there was no way anyone could reasonably pick Kariya as being the better of the two players - was a bit of a stretch.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 04-18-2013 at 08:06 AM.
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04-18-2013, 10:06 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Ok.

I'm glad you then agree with my actual point - that the inference that there was no way anyone could reasonably pick Kariya as being the better of the two players - was a bit of a stretch.
That's far more passive than what you were saying earlier when you accused people of being revisionists.

And you couldn't get my stance from my very first post in this thread?

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I think it's kinda silly that some of you are getting hung up on proving that Kariya was better or Selanne was better based upon points-per-game numbers that are identical with fair context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
They were on the same level as players at their peaks 1996-1999.

I'm not the one who came in here with a flawed chart, spouting off about how it proves one "outperformed" the other on a per-game basis - or that one was "widely considered better" at the time. Hell, everything was so even about them, they were both mauled by an American defenseman in the same year:




If you want to say Kariya was better, fine, but don't go overboard with it and don't hide behind bogus math and don't accuse people of being revisionist for disagreeing. Kariya did not outperform Selanne on a per-game basis; you were wrong. Kariya was not a 100 point player prior to Selanne's arrival; you were wrong. Kariya was not a 50 goal player prior to Selanne's arrival; you were wrong. But Selanne? 37 Goals in the 51 Games without Kariya in 1997-98. With injuries. Without a holdout.

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Kariya was widely considered better before he got gooned.
I mean, come on...

If you can't separate pre-Olympic hype from reality, that's a problem. We're all totally bummed that Canada had to play without arguably their three of their four best forwards for various reasons (Lemieux, Kariya, Sakic), but there was no wide consideration that Kariya had separated himself from Selanne - only a few media personalities who were really excited about the potential Canadian stars of an upcoming six-game tournament (that Selanne led in scoring...).

Think about Kariya's 1997 Hart nomination: Anaheim was a bad team without Kariya in October 1996 (just as they were a bad team without Selanne for most of 1995-96). Kariya comes back to the team, and he and Selanne score at the same pace throughout the rest of the season (Selanne is slightly higher). Kariya gets the nomination because he was the returning player. Kariya gets the nomination because the narrative makes him the catalyst. Kariya gets the nomination because he had an abdominal injury and Selanne did not.

That's your wide consideration.

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04-18-2013, 10:22 AM
  #95
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That's far more passive than what you were saying earlier when you accused people of being revisionists.
They are being revisionists -- by definition.

Before getting the first in a series of concussions that curbed and ended his career, the widespread belief at the time was that Kariya was the slightly better player, and that he was poised to take over as one of the games greatest players.

I believe I've already said more than once in this thread that I don't think that there was a lot separating them at the time. I do believe Kariya was shaping up as the better player pre-injury and had more upside.

Wait a second.. aren't you the super Selanne proponent around here?

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04-18-2013, 11:28 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
They are being revisionists -- by definition.

Before getting the first in a series of concussions that curbed and ended his career, the widespread belief at the time was that Kariya was the slightly better player, and that he was poised to take over as one of the games greatest players.

I believe I've already said more than once in this thread that I don't think that there was a lot separating them at the time. I do believe Kariya was shaping up as the better player pre-injury and had more upside.

Wait a second.. aren't you the super Selanne proponent around here?
there are a lot of people who believe the same that kariya was the more valauble player then selanne. he was def was getting paid like it(why wouldn't he be?) kariya was younger then selanne and in a lot of poeples mind still on his way up, unfortunately concussions ruined that progress.

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04-18-2013, 11:35 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
They are being revisionists -- by definition.

Before getting the first in a series of concussions that curbed and ended his career, the widespread belief at the time was that Kariya was the slightly better player, and that he was poised to take over as one of the games greatest players.
And this is where anybody else on HOH would post newspaper articles proving that there was a "widespread belief" that Kariya was better. You're relying on a Hart nomination narrative that was already explained and remedied by the voters in the next two seasons.

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Wait a second.. aren't you the super Selanne proponent around here?
That would be jepjepjoo.

I'm the guy who called them equals and corrected your math. And who are you? The person who still hasn't admitted that he was wrong about points-per-game? Because honestly, I'd rather talk about Lidstrom/Chelios with Epsilon again than argue with someone who can't own up to two blatant errors/misrepresentations. We all make mistakes - hell, I accidentally bumbled Paul Coffey's numbers just the other day.

You made an assertion and tried to back it up with flawed numbers. Epsilon and I both caught it. At least own up to it rather than trying to put me on trial here. Which super-Selanne statement have I made? Citing numbers? I don't make claims for which I don't have a number or a quote.

And hell, BraveCanadian, this isn't even the first time you've been called out on this same thing:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=27
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=30
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=38

If I'm the "super Selanne proponent," then you're typing your replies in a #9 Team Canada jersey.

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04-18-2013, 11:41 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And this is where anybody else on HOH would post newspaper articles proving that there was a "widespread belief" that Kariya was better. You're relying on a Hart nomination narrative that was already explained and remedied by the voters in the next two seasons.
I really don't have enough of a horse in the race to bother with that.


Quote:
That would be jepjepjoo.
Ah yes that is who I was thinking of

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I'm the guy who called them equals and corrected your math. And who are you? The person who still hasn't admitted that he was wrong about points-per-game? Because honestly, I'd rather talk about Lidstrom/Chelios with Epsilon again than argue with someone who can't own up to two blatant errors/misrepresentations. We all make mistakes - hell, I accidentally bumbled Paul Coffey's numbers just the other day.

You made an assertion and tried to back it up with flawed numbers. Epsilon and I both caught it. At least own up to it rather than trying to put me on trial here. Which super-Selanne statement have I made? Citing numbers? I don't make claims for which I don't have a number or a quote.
My assertion was to argue against what I thought was Epsilon making the claim that there was no reasonable argument for Kariya.

That is not true.

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And hell, BraveCanadian, this isn't even the first time you've been called out on this same thing:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=27
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=30
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=38

If I'm the "super Selanne proponent," then you're typing your replies in a #9 Team Canada jersey.
So I've consistently said that they were close, Kariya was a better playmaker, better without the puck, better regarded, and still improving at that time, and that Selanne was a better goalscorer and has had a better career?

Good for me.

And no, I don't have a #9 Team Canada jersey.

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04-18-2013, 11:45 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
My assertion was to argue against what I thought was Epsilon making the claim that there was no reasonable argument for Kariya.
I wasn't actually trying to claim that, just that usually people will say Kariya was better (or say things like "there was a widespread belief he was better") without providing much substance to support it. Even now, I'm seeing a lot of talk about how he was younger, but that doesn't actually make him better, it just facilitates hypothetical arguments about how he had more upside and whatnot.

It almost seems like the TL;DR version is "Kariya was better because everyone expected he would become better".

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Old
04-18-2013, 11:49 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
I wasn't actually trying to claim that, just that usually people will say Kariya was better (or say things like "there was a widespread belief he was better") without providing much substance to support it. Even now, I'm seeing a lot of talk about how he was younger, but that doesn't actually make him better, it just facilitates hypothetical arguments about how he had more upside and whatnot.
Yeah you clarified that later on. It just came off as that at first glance.


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It almost seems like the TL;DR version is "Kariya was better because everyone expected he would become better".

That is certainly part of it.

He was basically already Selanne's equal or better all around and still quite young and presumably improving. Obviously it didn't turn out that way after the concussions.

Anyways my care level doesn't match this thread any longer.

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