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Has Marc Bergevin made his first mistake as a Habs GM?

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Old
04-17-2013, 08:22 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You recognize that you are not there yet, and you don't throw away your youth and picks for nothing. Pretty fine to me. WE will need to improve from now on though. Working solely on expectations for the future aren't good enough. You need to show some progression at one point.
Yes, but while we are waiting for our youth and our picks to develop, our older players are getting older and not as effective. Markov is a great example.

Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Ellis are two to three years away from becoming as effective as Markov is today.

And in those two to three years, the team dynamics will change again. The future is always important to pay attention to but ignoring the present while just thinking about the future is foolish.

We are living that right now. Hopefully Bergevin learns from this season of doing nothing to improve the present that looked very bright.

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Old
04-17-2013, 08:56 PM
  #252
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The positive is that if we lose the top spot in our division, we're gonna face Toronto, we're be blown out and dominated physically and it will wake Bergevin up to add grit this summer.

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04-17-2013, 09:26 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Yes, but while we are waiting for our youth and our picks to develop, our older players are getting older and not as effective. Markov is a great example.

Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Ellis are two to three years away from becoming as effective as Markov is today.

And in those two to three years, the team dynamics will change again. The future is always important to pay attention to but ignoring the present while just thinking about the future is foolish.

We are living that right now. Hopefully Bergevin learns from this season of doing nothing to improve the present that looked very bright.
Everyone was clamouring for Clowe or Jagr. They wouldn't help us right now.

It should be evident that MB made the right non-moves at the deadline. This isn't a team that should be going for it all.

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04-17-2013, 09:29 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Everyone was clamouring for Clowe or Jagr. They wouldn't help us right now.

It should be evident that MB made the right non-moves at the deadline. This isn't a team that should be going for it all.
Ask Prust if Clowe would help...

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04-17-2013, 09:34 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Everyone was clamouring for Clowe or Jagr. They wouldn't help us right now.

It should be evident that MB made the right non-moves at the deadline. This isn't a team that should be going for it all.
I wanted nothing to do with Jagr.

I wanted Clowe and Murray (or Smid but he re-signed with his team).

Clowe and Murray both would have made a difference. Clowe would not be scoring goals but he would have added a little respect to our small lineup and would have created more space for our talented but small forwards. Much like Prust when given a chance to play with Chuckie.

Murray definitely would have helped this team. We could hide Drewiskie but we cannot hide him and Weber/Beaulieu.

We were and are still two pieces away from becoming a Cup contender. The sooner it is addressed, the sooner we get to the goal.

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04-17-2013, 09:36 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Everyone was clamouring for Clowe or Jagr. They wouldn't help us right now.

It should be evident that MB made the right non-moves at the deadline. This isn't a team that should be going for it all.
I hate to say it, but Clowe would be fantastic right now. We need that physical element and Clowe would relieve the burden Prust has been dumped. This was among the reasons I wanted Talbot prior to his injury. We need those types of players who can help shoulder this team. In the offseason, I'd push hard for both of them.

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04-17-2013, 09:50 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Everyone was clamouring for Clowe or Jagr. They wouldn't help us right now.

It should be evident that MB made the right non-moves at the deadline. This isn't a team that should be going for it all.
This is how I see it. You add depth to improve the team, not to save its ass after one key injury. I really didn't think Emelin meant this much to the team, but I guess when the only player that hits is gone...

This collapse is proof that MB did the right thing.

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04-17-2013, 09:55 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
This is how I see it. You add depth to improve the team, not to save its ass after one key injury. I really didn't think Emelin meant this much to the team, but I guess when the only player that hits is gone...

This collapse is proof that MB did the right thing.
Wrong.

The idea is to win and avoid collapses.

MB would be proven right if this team would have rolled into the playoffs hot and made it to the Stanley Cup finals.

You play to win. Not to lose and be vindicated for losing.

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04-17-2013, 10:03 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Wrong.

The idea is to win and avoid collapses.

MB would be proven right if this team would have rolled into the playoffs hot and made it to the Stanley Cup finals.

You play to win. Not to lose and be vindicated for losing.
Look at Nashville last year, they bought and now they're going to be a joke of a franchise for 3-4 years.

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04-17-2013, 10:29 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Ezpz View Post
Look at Nashville last year, they bought and now they're going to be a joke of a franchise for 3-4 years.
Overstatement.
They just made the best deal of the deadline IMO. Sure, they overpaid for Gaustad with a first round pick, but they still have Weber, arguably the best D-man in the league, Rinne, arguably the best goalie in the league, with alot of young guys with great potential: Blum, Ellis, Wilson, Forsberg (who will light it up night after night in 2 years).

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04-17-2013, 10:33 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I wanted nothing to do with Jagr.

I wanted Clowe and Murray (or Smid but he re-signed with his team).

Clowe and Murray both would have made a difference. Clowe would not be scoring goals but he would have added a little respect to our small lineup and would have created more space for our talented but small forwards. Much like Prust when given a chance to play with Chuckie.

Murray definitely would have helped this team. We could hide Drewiskie but we cannot hide him and Weber/Beaulieu.

We were and are still two pieces away from becoming a Cup contender. The sooner it is addressed, the sooner we get to the goal.
So you would have traded our first round pick and all 3 of our 2nd round picks to get Clowe and Murray?

Man that really would leave the cupboards bare for 2 rentals.

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04-17-2013, 10:50 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Yes, but while we are waiting for our youth and our picks to develop, our older players are getting older and not as effective. Markov is a great example.

Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Ellis are two to three years away from becoming as effective as Markov is today.

And in those two to three years, the team dynamics will change again. The future is always important to pay attention to but ignoring the present while just thinking about the future is foolish.

We are living that right now. Hopefully Bergevin learns from this season of doing nothing to improve the present that looked very bright.
Fact is that we were 15th last year.
We had an unexpected run till now and it may go further.

Assuming that we are not in the same league as Chicago and Pittsburgh, the only way forward is to build.
We are nowhere near these teams for now.
In two years, we will have a defense that will be able to compete with the best teams.
BTW, you forgot Dietz in your list.

Beaulieu needs another two years before he could be a top-4.
Once we have a Beaulieu-Subban first pair and a Tinordi-Diaz second pair we should be pretty good.

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04-17-2013, 10:55 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Fact is that we were 15th last year.
We had an unexpected run till now and it may go further.

Assuming that we are not in the same league as Chicago and Pittsburgh, the only way forward is to build.
We are nowhere near these teams for now.
In two years, we will have a defense that will be able to compete with the best teams.
BTW, you forgot Dietz in your list.

Beaulieu needs another two years before he could be a top-4.
Once we have a Beaulieu-Subban first pair and a Tinordi-Diaz second pair we should be pretty good.

a smile on my face when thinking Beaulieu-Subban (superpowerhouse), Diaz-Emelin (mix of offence and grit), Gorges-Tinordi (shutdown) in like 2-3 years

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04-17-2013, 10:58 PM
  #264
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While I have been all in favour of the non-move in context with Emelin being injured after the deadline, I think I was a little blinded by our good luck injury wise. For this til now great season to be headed for disaster is not acceptable after having to live through last year. I'm now thinking MB might have been able to get someone better than Drewiskie (at the very least, we can argue that his evaluation of this hidden gem was off). Someone who hits and is competent. Emelin's loss is huge, and I am in the camp that feels he's had an effect on the whole team in terms of D partnering, transition, hitting, etc.

Depending on what the deals were, that's where my opinion of MB's non-big move hangs in the balance. I find it hard to believe we couldn't get someone on a longer term contract (or with a condition of how far we get or for re-signing) who would have softened the blow. At the time, no need. Now...I feel like I was wrong. This defense is beyond repair. You can't ask Boullion to be top 4 (he's great bottom pair) and have DD44 and LJV crapping the bed. That said, Josh Gorges was doggy doo doo and has been for awhile. I reaaally hope he did not give a media comment. He needs to shut up and play instead of just yapping.

Just to be clear, wouldn't have given away any of the top prospects, but again, seems like some teams got solid players for nothing.

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04-17-2013, 11:02 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
So you would have traded our first round pick and all 3 of our 2nd round picks to get Clowe and Murray?

Man that really would leave the cupboards bare for 2 rentals.
Tough question to answer.

All of these would have helped us but the real question is:
Are we ready to be a PO contender?

If we are not then we need to keep those picks.
BTW, NAS and CGY are bottom teams and we may end up with two picks that will end up in the 32-36 range.

Anyone who think we are ready to compete with the Pens or Chi should revisit.
Add Murray, Morrow and Iginla to this team and tell me we are ready for the Pens with a full healthy team.

We do not have the team to trade picks for rentals for a PO run.

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Old
04-17-2013, 11:04 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
So you would have traded our first round pick and all 3 of our 2nd round picks to get Clowe and Murray?

Man that really would leave the cupboards bare for 2 rentals.
Not what I said.

Clowe was eager for a sign and trade. It has become painfully obvious that Ryder is not in the plans for next year the way Therrien is using him now.

Clowe for Ryder in a straight up deal.

Murray went to Pittsburgh for two 2nd round picks. One for 2013. One for 2014 that is conditional on Murray signing with the Pens.

So Clowe and Murray would have cost us one 2nd round pick this year for sure and Bergevin could cut him free and not use the 2nd round pick in 2014..........or sign Murray to solve one of our problems......size and toughness on the back end.

As it looks now, we will get nothing for Ryder when he leaves and Clowe is playing for the Rangers.

Not very strategic on Bergevin's part. I hope he learns from his mistake.

But hell, we have a ton of picks that may or may not pan out in 3-6 years. The future in Montreal for winning a Cup again is always bright.........two or so years from now........same as its been for 20 years.

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Old
04-17-2013, 11:08 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
While I have been all in favour of the non-move in context with Emelin being injured after the deadline, I think I was a little blinded by our good luck injury wise. For this til now great season to be headed for disaster is not acceptable after having to live through last year. I'm now thinking MB might have been able to get someone better than Drewiskie (at the very least, we can argue that his evaluation of this hidden gem was off). Someone who hits and is competent. Emelin's loss is huge, and I am in the camp that feels he's had an effect on the whole team in terms of D partnering, transition, hitting, etc.

Depending on what the deals were, that's where my opinion of MB's non-big move hangs in the balance. I find it hard to believe we couldn't get someone on a longer term contract (or with a condition of how far we get or for re-signing) who would have softened the blow. At the time, no need. Now...I feel like I was wrong. This defense is beyond repair. You can't ask Boullion to be top 4 (he's great bottom pair) and have DD44 and LJV crapping the bed. That said, Josh Gorges was doggy doo doo and has been for awhile. I reaaally hope he did not give a media comment. He needs to shut up and play instead of just yapping.

Just to be clear, wouldn't have given away any of the top prospects, but again, seems like some teams got solid players for nothing.
Now you know why I was upset with Bergevin not upgrading at the deadline. A magical season turning into a crapfest.

Not addressing D depth was the undoing of Gauthier last year and the lesson was not learned.

Pity.

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04-17-2013, 11:09 PM
  #268
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Look at Nashville last year, they bought and now they're going to be a joke of a franchise for 3-4 years.
What kind of logic is this?

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04-17-2013, 11:11 PM
  #269
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i never thought id say this but his mistake is keeping Kaberle in the press box.

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04-17-2013, 11:14 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by 24get View Post
Fact is that we were 15th last year.
We had an unexpected run till now and it may go further.

Assuming that we are not in the same league as Chicago and Pittsburgh, the only way forward is to build.
We are nowhere near these teams for now.
In two years, we will have a defense that will be able to compete with the best teams.
BTW, you forgot Dietz in your list.

Beaulieu needs another two years before he could be a top-4.
Once we have a Beaulieu-Subban first pair and a Tinordi-Diaz second pair we should be pretty good.
As said before, ignoring the present success and thinking that the present success multiplied by the optimistic hope for the future is a fools game played by losers.

Hockey is a violent contact sport. I would hope that none of our players are seriously injured. However, any prospect's future is placed at risk every game that they play. Blown out knees. Severe concussions. A multitude of injuries that ruins the careers of players every season.

Carpe diem. Seize the day. There are no promises for the future turning out as you hope and expect.

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04-17-2013, 11:15 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Now you know why I was upset with Bergevin not upgrading at the deadline. A magical season turning into a crapfest.

Not addressing D depth was the undoing of Gauthier last year and the lesson was not learned.

Pity.
If you would ease up on the DD bashing, you could easily become my favorite poster here.

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04-17-2013, 11:42 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
As said before, ignoring the present success and thinking that the present success multiplied by the optimistic hope for the future is a fools game played by losers.

Hockey is a violent contact sport. I would hope that none of our players are seriously injured. However, any prospect's future is placed at risk every game that they play. Blown out knees. Severe concussions. A multitude of injuries that ruins the careers of players every season.

Carpe diem. Seize the day. There are no promises for the future turning out as you hope and expect.
A shame really.
Bergevin started by making bold moves... the Therrien hiring, the Prust signing, sending Gomez home, keeping Gally and Chuckie, moving Cole for Ryder. Every bold move works out great, team is soaring.

Then Bergevin decides to start playing it safe, signs DD to an inexplicable contract (like he was going to lose DD if he waited till year end??), signs Bouillion to an extension (again why mid-season?) and at the trade deadline decides not to move any of his three 2nd round or two 3rd round picks (picks that will not help the habs team for at least three years).

Looks like the 'playing it safe' could easily overshadow all the good moves he has made this season.

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04-17-2013, 11:44 PM
  #273
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If you would ease up on the DD bashing, you could easily become my favorite poster here.
BTW, i actually like DD. My bashing of him is purely allegorical.

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04-17-2013, 11:58 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
As said before, ignoring the present success and thinking that the present success multiplied by the optimistic hope for the future is a fools game played by losers.

Hockey is a violent contact sport. I would hope that none of our players are seriously injured. However, any prospect's future is placed at risk every game that they play. Blown out knees. Severe concussions. A multitude of injuries that ruins the careers of players every season.

Carpe diem. Seize the day. There are no promises for the future turning out as you hope and expect.
Cape Diem does not fit when you have only enough fishes to feed yourself.

The risk of injuries hits every team but when your team does not have the fundamentals to address the current situation you need to take decision based on the people available to you.

Now if you think that this team has most of the elements to make a SC run like Shero did, then you can give many rounds to get assets to allow you to go further.

It all turns out to one question: Are we good enough to compete with Chicago or Pittsburgh?

So if you think that this is the year to put all on the table and try to go for a SC final, then giving up many 2nd round picks is the answer.

A week ago, the answer could be a 20-80 to go for a cup.
Now we do understand that this team may win the cup but the odds of doing so are lower.

The last three games have been pretty revealing...
We are really great on the path toward being a true contender but we need a few more parts: on the defense, we need Tinordi and Beaulieu to be ready and this will take two more years, on the offense we need one or two more players to add to Gallagher and Galchenyuk.

Once this is done, we will be a true contender ready to trade to get assets to complement out team.

We are having totally different approach:
  • I think we need to wait till our core is ready to trade for assets to go for the cup;
  • You seem to think we are ready ans we should trade assets right now.
Sorry to tell you: Pens are ready to trade assets but we are not.

BTW, I agree with you just not on the timing.

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Old
04-18-2013, 12:02 AM
  #275
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What kind of logic is this?
Don't buy when your team isn't close to a cup. It's plain as day logic a child could follow.

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