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Has Marc Bergevin made his first mistake as a Habs GM?

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Old
04-18-2013, 02:05 PM
  #301
hockeyfan2k11
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Look at the cost.
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!

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04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
Well said.
Bergevin played it safe and now he has a team that is melting down defensively.

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04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Dream on... Nurse looks to go top 5 in the draft. None of the bottom ten teams are moving their picks anywhere unless there is an overpayment.
Please name the 4 guys (at most) who will be picked before Nurse...

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04-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
Well said.
Bergevin played it safe and now he has a team that is melting down defensively.
Considering how many times you said that this team can't win with DD in the lineup, I really can't fathom why you, of all people, think this team can win now.


Either they can't win now, or a can win with DD.

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04-18-2013, 02:14 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Don't be sarcastic, clearly Bergevin should've had the foresight to predict that injuries would happen. Only the LA Kings went their entire playoffs without defensive injuries but most other teams shore up defensive depth, especially when they're #2nd in the conference and their life-long rivals are gearing up and picking up players.

His "get-out-of-jail free" card has been blown away by this point. Bergevin failed at the awfully timed, awfully concocted DD extension, at the awfully timed Bouillon extension and at the trade deadline where he traded for the equally awful Davis Drewiskie. And if you don't think Drewiskie is awful, just watch him play.

The Ryder trade was good, but if he's not re-signed we'll just have to overpay and overterm for another B-minus winger. Not to mention Moen looks like a dud, and has 3 years left. We can't just not criticise Bergevin and end up with another do-no-wrong Gainey on our hands. Amp up the heat, he deserves it.
This...

Seriously, MB is getting a free pass. He's no better than anyone else. What has he done so far? Low balling Subban, sign Bouillon, sign Prust (love the guy but he's a little expensive), extend Desharnais, trade for Ryder (good but not so exeptional move) and trade for Drewiske. That and the fact that we're still with the same ****** defense as last year. Proof: it didn't take that much for it to collapse. We had Markov bad but it has so little depth that the loss of freaking Emelin was too much to handle for the depth guys, they couldn't step up.

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04-18-2013, 02:15 PM
  #306
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Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 04-18-2013 at 02:24 PM. Reason: I wanted to delete it.
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04-18-2013, 02:15 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by franchise player View Post
This...

Seriously, MB is getting a free pass. He's no better than anyone else. What has he done so far? Low balling Subban, sign Bouillon, sign Prust (love the guy but he's a little expensive), extend Desharnais, trade for Ryder (good but not so exeptional move) and trade for Drewiske. That and the fact that we're still with the same ****** defense as last year. Proof: it didn't take that much for it to collapse. We had Markov bad but it has so little depth that the loss of freaking Emelin was too much to handle for the depth guys, they couldn't step up.
You just hinted at the fact that this team needed more than two players.

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04-18-2013, 02:17 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
Damn great post!!!!

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04-18-2013, 02:18 PM
  #309
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This...

Seriously, MB is getting a free pass. He's no better than anyone else. What has he done so far? Low balling Subban, sign Bouillon, sign Prust (love the guy but he's a little expensive), extend Desharnais, trade for Ryder (good but not so exeptional move) and trade for Drewiske. That and the fact that we're still with the same ****** defense as last year. Proof: it didn't take that much for it to collapse. We had Markov bad but it has so little depth that the loss of freaking Emelin was too much to handle for the depth guys, they couldn't step up.
Did the Bruins/Penguins trade for Dmen or for old, expensive forwards? The Habs have young Dmen on the way up. As for progress under Bergevin, didn't you notice that the Habs moved a dozen or so places up the ladder from last season? It wasn't done with magic beans.

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04-18-2013, 02:22 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
They had Voynov in the minors. And they had a Kopitar, something we don't have.

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04-18-2013, 03:02 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
They didn't trade any of those assets for rentals. Apples vs oranges.

Adding guys that were not good enough to help the Sharks is not going to play a big part in winnig a cup. Note how much the Sharks are better with Cole and Murray gone.

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04-18-2013, 03:06 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
When we can trade a guy who is one of the worst defensive players in the league for a guy signed to a discount for a decade who's a 40 goal scorer I'm sure Bergevin will pull the trigger. It's not as if New York was calling us up offering us Nash for a re-signed Kaberle and a first and willing to take 3 mil cap hit a year for the entire deal.

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04-18-2013, 03:26 PM
  #313
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Yes, but while we are waiting for our youth and our picks to develop, our older players are getting older and not as effective. Markov is a great example.

Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Ellis are two to three years away from becoming as effective as Markov is today.

And in those two to three years, the team dynamics will change again. The future is always important to pay attention to but ignoring the present while just thinking about the future is foolish.

We are living that right now. Hopefully Bergevin learns from this season of doing nothing to improve the present that looked very bright.
That's why I think at some point this summer, I think Bergevin will have to sacrifice a good young forward for a top 2 d-man. It would be a move as good for the present as for the future if it's a player like Yandle. Nothing's coming in the D pipeline (in term of top2-3 D) short term and waiting for one would make our vets too old. The cup's window isn't too wide, and I think it starts next year.

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04-18-2013, 03:31 PM
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i never thought id say this but his mistake is keeping Kaberle in the press box.
If habs play Kaberle and he gets hurt, they won't be able to buy him out this summer, which would be sooooo bad.

...that said, if things don't turn around, I wonder if Habs wouldnt be better to buy out Moen and keep Kaberle for one more year...

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04-18-2013, 03:38 PM
  #315
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That's why I think at some point this summer, I think Bergevin will have to sacrifice a good young forward for a top 2 d-man. It would be a move as good for the present as for the future if it's a player like Yandle. Nothing's coming in the D pipeline (in term of top2-3 D) short term and waiting for one would make our vets too old. The cup's window isn't too wide, and I think it starts next year.
Trading for Yandle to me makes no sense, he is another similar player to Subban Markov Diaz Beaulieu Bennett Dietz Nygren. If the Hbas trade for defenseman it would be for a stay at home type to clear the front of the net, they already have penty of PMD's and PP guys and more on the way. That's actually the deepest sport in the organisation.

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04-18-2013, 03:39 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
If habs play Kaberle and he gets hurt, they won't be able to buy him out this summer, which would be sooooo bad.

...that said, if things don't turn around, I wonder if Habs wouldnt be better to buy out Moen and keep Kaberle for one more year...
He's obviously been pretty average this season, but he's problably still tradeable. Lets be honest, at best he plays like Prust, just without the fighting ability.

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04-18-2013, 03:46 PM
  #317
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Trading for Yandle to me makes no sense, he is another similar player to Subban Markov Diaz Beaulieu Bennett Dietz Nygren. If the Hbas trade for defenseman it would be for a stay at home type to clear the front of the net, they already have penty of PMD's and PP guys and more on the way. That's actually the deepest sport in the organisation.
It's one of those things where people look at the stats and see he had a near 60 point season. They look at that and think Yandle is so good at offense he must be a great defender too. He would barely be an upgrade on Markov at ES because Markov's foot speed is so bad right now. Markov is in a completely different league from Yandle on the PP. He'd essentially provide the same thing Diaz does at four times the cap hit.

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04-18-2013, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Trading for Yandle to me makes no sense, he is another similar player to Subban Markov Diaz Beaulieu Bennett Dietz Nygren. If the Hbas trade for defenseman it would be for a stay at home type to clear the front of the net, they already have penty of PMD's and PP guys and more on the way. That's actually the deepest sport in the organisation.
Subban, ok. But the others? You're comparing an NHL all star d-man to an old-slow-once-great d-man (Markov) and a bunch of D-man who never played a single NHL game and some others who won't be more than a #3, if everything goes well, which isn't a given...

Anyway, I'm not saying Habs should forget about their young d-men. I'm saying that there are no sure bet top-1-3 d-man in the pipeline and that it would be a wise move to add one -- and I'm not talking about a rental, I would want the Habs to sign Yandle long term.

It's good to have good young players. But at some point, you have to pinpoint the ones you want to keep and trade the others to help fill the voids. That's how you get closer to the Stanley cup, not just by stockpiling young players with promises (ask the Oilers).

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04-18-2013, 03:50 PM
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It's one of those things where people look at the stats and see he had a near 60 point season. They look at that and think Yandle is so good at offense he must be a great defender too. He would barely be an upgrade on Markov at ES because Markov's foot speed is so bad right now. Markov is in a completely different league from Yandle on the PP. He'd essentially provide the same thing Diaz does at four times the cap hit.
Wow. Yandle is better than Markov right now (except on the PP, but Yandle isn't bad at all), and Yandle will be better for sure the next 5-7 years! Yandle is a top-2 d-man since many years, and for many years, no matter if his 60 points season was misleading or not.

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04-18-2013, 03:54 PM
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It's one of those things where people look at the stats and see he had a near 60 point season. They look at that and think Yandle is so good at offense he must be a great defender too. He would barely be an upgrade on Markov at ES because Markov's foot speed is so bad right now. Markov is in a completely different league from Yandle on the PP. He'd essentially provide the same thing Diaz does at four times the cap hit.
Well, all around, Diaz was playing way better than Markov, and Markov won't be better in the next years... In fact, at the moment of his injury, Diaz was becoming Habs' #1 d-man (while I agree PK wasn't there yet) and was playing like a star. If Yandle do the same (he has allready did it in the past), well, that's something I would like to see with the Habs!!!

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04-18-2013, 04:02 PM
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Well, all around, Diaz was playing way better than Markov, and Markov won't be better in the next years... In fact, at the moment of his injury, Diaz was becoming Habs' #1 d-man (while I agree PK wasn't there yet) and was playing like a star. If Yandle do the same (he has allready did it in the past), well, that's something I would like to see with the Habs!!!
Diaz will provide that though, we don't need a second Diaz. We need a guy who is solid defensively to play with Subban on the top pairing, not a guy who pinches a lot and forces Subban to play the babysitter role. Why would we would to handcuff Subban when he's on pace to outscore Yandle last year in 40 less games? We need a guy like the player Tinordi is going to become. Emelin-Diaz could be an amazing second pairing capable of being a first pairing. In the short term I'd call up Edmonton and ask if Smid is available after the GM switch if we don't want to be patient with Tinordi. Beauchemin is another type of guy we could use, although I doubt he's available. That or we hope Gorges stops playing like garbage next year.

All I'm saying is if we could get Yandle cheap, great. He's not the type of player we should be actively pursuing in trade though.

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04-18-2013, 04:06 PM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
And what happens when you give up whichever picks and players and you don't win. And what happens when you set the team back a year, 2 years, etc because you traded those picks.

Winning is the same to the both of us. However a few spare parts is not the answer.

Whatever, you guys really don't get it. The NHL is not going to disappear, this isn't the last chance to win a Stanley Cup. We have too many holes to fill and spare parts are not the answer.

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04-18-2013, 04:08 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
A shot at the cup vs. "we have picks picks picks!"

I don't think LA is missing Jack Johnson right now or the 1st and Teubert.

Maybe it's because we haven't won, but I think to some, the object of this game is to stack picks. The object of this game is to WIN!
HF is all about prospects so the value of picks is understandably rated high here.

One thing I noticed is when posters are asked just whom MB should have added at the deadline for that assumed 3rd, there isn't much of a list of possibilities.

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04-18-2013, 04:15 PM
  #324
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Subban, ok. But the others? You're comparing an NHL all star d-man to an old-slow-once-great d-man (Markov) and a bunch of D-man who never played a single NHL game and some others who won't be more than a #3, if everything goes well, which isn't a given...

Anyway, I'm not saying Habs should forget about their young d-men. I'm saying that there are no sure bet top-1-3 d-man in the pipeline and that it would be a wise move to add one -- and I'm not talking about a rental, I would want the Habs to sign Yandle long term.

It's good to have good young players. But at some point, you have to pinpoint the ones you want to keep and trade the others to help fill the voids. That's how you get closer to the Stanley cup, not just by stockpiling young players with promises (ask the Oilers).
The Habs are not the Oilers, they have veterans mixed in with their young players.

I'm not comparing the players, I'm explaining to you that a player that will cost a fortune to bring in will not fill much of a need. The 10% or 20% he is better than Markov 5 on 5 will cost a guy like Eller or Plekanec, a 1st rounder plus a prospect(Kristo or Collberg). That would be a horrible move by MB. Plus at this point he wants to add depth to nthe organisation before making that type of move.

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04-18-2013, 04:22 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Ezpz View Post
Diaz will provide that though, we don't need a second Diaz. We need a guy who is solid defensively to play with Subban on the top pairing, not a guy who pinches a lot and forces Subban to play the babysitter role. Why would we would to handcuff Subban when he's on pace to outscore Yandle last year in 40 less games? We need a guy like the player Tinordi is going to become. Emelin-Diaz could be an amazing second pairing capable of being a first pairing. In the short term I'd call up Edmonton and ask if Smid is available after the GM switch if we don't want to be patient with Tinordi. Beauchemin is another type of guy we could use, although I doubt he's available. That or we hope Gorges stops playing like garbage next year.

All I'm saying is if we could get Yandle cheap, great. He's not the type of player we should be actively pursuing in trade though.
Fair enough. But if you have a trio like Subban-Diaz-Yandle, then you can use d-men like Tinordi and co, or any average big stay at home d-men. That would be better than d-men like Bouillon and Gorges (to a lesser extend) who are somewhere in the middle. I know some will crucify me, but next year, Habs should trade Markov to a team that goes for the cup (which would be doable only if Habs add a d-man like Yandle). The return would be great, maybe a first round pick, and Habs would be better short term.

...and I do believe that as fans, we should stop being in love with Gorges. If habs want to take the next step up, they need d-men who have a clearer role and who do more than just blocking shots. I would prefer a d-man who blocks less shot than Gorges, but hit more, sometime fights, or makes better passes. Gorges only shoot the puck in the glasses, and in the O-zone, he's absolutly unable to make a single play. And he's pretty average one on one, and below average at clearing the front of his own net. I'm not sure why everybody is defending him.

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