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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

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04-18-2013, 09:48 AM
  #576
Bleed Ranger Blue
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I think dump and chase is exactly what they're doing. The problem is they're trying to pair a breakout that is based primarily on stretch passes with a dump and chase attack. Those two things don't play well with each other. When you have players circling in the neutral zone for a long pass, they're not carrying the speed they need to chase the puck into the offensive zone.
I think, like any team, the message is to dump it if theres no play in the neutral zone. Thats not a system, thats common sense. Theres no more costly and frequent turnovers than between the blue lines in the NHL. I refuse to believe, however, this is the game plan.

Your observation about a stretch pass being the first option out of the zone is a very good one. Something needs to be done to address the lack of speed through the neutral zone. Its absolutely killing this team.

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04-18-2013, 09:52 AM
  #577
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Hardy har har. Jokes are funny.

But can anyone seriously decipher Torts' X's and O's and the problems they have with it? Or is it just easier to complain and joke about things that aren't the central issue to this team's struggles?
Those two drawings are tongue in cheek, but they are pretty much what this team looks like in both zones on any given night. Also I guess Torts' strategy is back to being some complex and deep mystery that no one here can possibly comprehend.

You're right though, it is only one head on the hydra that is this team's inability to play a complete 60 minutes of hockey. It's still part of the problem and worth noting.

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04-18-2013, 09:55 AM
  #578
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The problem is equal parts breakout and shortcomings of the personnel when it comes to opportunities on the rush. The system is not dump and chase. Never has been, never will be.
What? Is this serious? What are they doing then? I've been playing hockey 17 years. Its text book dump and chase. Count how many time we carry te puck in tonight. Wont be many

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04-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #579
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What? Is this serious? What are they doing then? I've been playing hockey 17 years. Its text book dump and chase. Count how many time we carry te puck in tonight. Wont be many
They do try to get the puck deep and establish the forecheck, but when that doesn't work they settle back into the neutral zone trap...which worked to perfection in the two games against Pittsburgh.

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04-18-2013, 10:30 AM
  #580
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Yes the stretch, tip, chip, dump and chase is all designed to do three things. Limit the turnovers in the neutral zone. Beat the trap because there is no puck carrier in the neutral zone to trap. Establish a forecheck where the defenders have to turn to go get the puck.

Thing is, watch Ottawa play, there is a way to beat the trap, limit turnovers without giving up possession and going to the dump when no other play is available. They make other plays available by giving the puck carrier options as they come up the ice together as a unit. The puck carrier will dump if he really needs to but that is after examining his other options.

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04-18-2013, 10:40 AM
  #581
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I think, like any team, the message is to dump it if theres no play in the neutral zone. Thats not a system, thats common sense. Theres no more costly and frequent turnovers than between the blue lines in the NHL. I refuse to believe, however, this is the game plan.

Your observation about a stretch pass being the first option out of the zone is a very good one. Something needs to be done to address the lack of speed through the neutral zone. Its absolutely killing this team.
I think the issue is that their first instinct seems to be that they should dump the puck in. Look for a stretch pass, if it's not there, gain the red line and dump the puck in. Whether that's the result of the system, or simply a confidence thing amongst the players who feel they cannot gain the zone on the rush, it makes little difference to me. You can't be a one-trick pony in this league, and with several defenders who can really skate, we should be rushing the puck more often.

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04-18-2013, 10:45 AM
  #582
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Can you send this to Larry Brooks?
Seriously
Epic drawboard, painful but true. Where are the expert apologists now?
Yeah, those funny diagrams made in jest really showed the expert apologists what's what.


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04-18-2013, 12:36 PM
  #583
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I don't mind the dump-and-chase as long as they forecheck well, and in some games they do and are successful. What kills me is cycling along the wall with all 3 forwards there and nobody in front. It's boring to watch, predictable, and usually doesn't lead to a high quality scoring chance.

Why can't we just put two guys on the puck, a man in front, and feed the man in front or get it back out to the D and let them rip it. That's how so many teams score on Hank, shots deflected from the point that the goalie can't see. I think we've had 5 of those type of goals this year.

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04-18-2013, 12:57 PM
  #584
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Those diagrams deserve another compliment.

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04-18-2013, 01:00 PM
  #585
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Not only is it boring, it's exhausting to watch the Rangers work so hard chasing the puck in the corners, one side to the other, when all the time it's obvious that no scoring chance is going to come of it.

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04-18-2013, 01:51 PM
  #586
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What? Is this serious? What are they doing then? I've been playing hockey 17 years. Its text book dump and chase. Count how many time we carry te puck in tonight. Wont be many
I think the problem is you really dont remember when a guy carries the puck in unless they score. It actually happens a lot, with no results. I also think that theres a myriad of situations regarding when an individual should carry the puck into the zone or dump it in. A ton of these factors are being ignored so that the headcoach could be portrayed as an idiot who plays stone-age hockey. Its just not accurate.

If you watch some of the best teams in the league, theres games they'll be forced to dump and chase because thats whats given to them -- the difference is theyre better and retrieving the puck and executing in the offensive zone.

Thats more a talent issue than coaching. And this team isnt as talented as everyone seems to think, but now we're getting into another conversation.

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04-18-2013, 01:58 PM
  #587
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I think the problem is you really dont remember when a guy carries the puck in unless they score. It actually happens a lot, with no results.
This is a very good point. A lot of the time when they carry the puck in they'll stop at the half boards on the right side and go for the pass to someone driving to the net, usually that pass gets deflected out of play though.

Just my observation

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04-18-2013, 02:16 PM
  #588
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Any chance he steps down?

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04-18-2013, 02:17 PM
  #589
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Any chance he steps down?
From the platform of the latest press conference he leaves early, maybe.

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04-18-2013, 02:48 PM
  #590
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I think the problem is you really dont remember when a guy carries the puck in unless they score. It actually happens a lot, with no results. I also think that theres a myriad of situations regarding when an individual should carry the puck into the zone or dump it in. A ton of these factors are being ignored so that the headcoach could be portrayed as an idiot who plays stone-age hockey. Its just not accurate.

If you watch some of the best teams in the league, theres games they'll be forced to dump and chase because thats whats given to them -- the difference is theyre better and retrieving the puck and executing in the offensive zone.

Thats more a talent issue than coaching. And this team isnt as talented as everyone seems to think, but now we're getting into another conversation.
im not saying this is torts' fault but i've noticed that there are plenty of times a game where they are at the other team's blue line and instead of looking around they immediately dump the puck in without a second thought. and a lot of the time they have an open teammate skating up who can gain the zone easily. these morons need to keep their heads up. the decision making on this team is pretty poor most of the time.

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04-18-2013, 02:48 PM
  #591
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Any chance he steps down?
Yes, that seems likely.

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04-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #592
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im not saying this is torts' fault but i've noticed that there are plenty of times a game where they are at the other team's blue line and instead of looking around they immediately dump the puck in without a second thought. and a lot of the time they have an open teammate skating up who can gain the zone easily. these morons need to keep their heads up. the decision making on this team is pretty poor most of the time.
Personnel.

All these years and we still dont have a creative player on the rush that can dominate a game. Nash is very creative, but moreso on 1 on 1 situations. Stepan is OK, Zuccarello can be when he has the time and room, which isnt often, Richards is cooked.

The elite playmaking ability just isnt there.

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04-18-2013, 03:05 PM
  #593
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I think the problem is you really dont remember when a guy carries the puck in unless they score. It actually happens a lot, with no results. I also think that theres a myriad of situations regarding when an individual should carry the puck into the zone or dump it in. A ton of these factors are being ignored so that the headcoach could be portrayed as an idiot who plays stone-age hockey. Its just not accurate.

If you watch some of the best teams in the league, theres games they'll be forced to dump and chase because thats whats given to them -- the difference is theyre better and retrieving the puck and executing in the offensive zone.

Thats more a talent issue than coaching. And this team isnt as talented as everyone seems to think, but now we're getting into another conversation.
Very well put. The only time that I regularly scratch my head and wonder why they're dumping is on the PP. Seems like they dump every. single. time. no matter what the situation is, and the puck ends up getting cleared back to Hank very often.

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04-18-2013, 03:15 PM
  #594
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Very well put. The only time that I regularly scratch my head and wonder why they're dumping is on the PP. Seems like they dump every. single. time. no matter what the situation is, and the puck ends up getting cleared back to Hank very often.
The point to complain about is that their breakout sucks....not the inaccurate "they are playing dump and chase hockey."

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04-18-2013, 03:19 PM
  #595
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The point to complain about is that their breakout sucks....not the inaccurate "they are playing dump and chase hockey."
Agreed. Am I crazy though or do you see them dumping on the PP too often, even when it appears to be unnecessary?

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04-18-2013, 03:21 PM
  #596
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Agreed. Am I crazy though or do you see them dumping on the PP too often, even when it appears to be unnecessary?
They dump and chase even when we are up a goal and the opposing team has an empty net .

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04-18-2013, 03:23 PM
  #597
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Agreed. Am I crazy though or do you see them dumping on the PP too often, even when it appears to be unnecessary?
If you were the opposition's coach and you see a team that cant break out of the defensive/neutral zones, what are you going to do? Stack the blueline and make the team dump it with no speed (this goes for the PP or ES). I dont think we have more than 1 or 2 players capable of carrying the puck through that situation and making a play.

Theres nothing wrong with dumping and chasing if thats all the opposition gives you. Unfortunately this team has a breakout and a forecheck that sucks. The problem is part talent, part motivation, and part coaching.

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04-18-2013, 03:47 PM
  #598
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Personnel.

All these years and we still dont have a creative player on the rush that can dominate a game. Nash is very creative, but moreso on 1 on 1 situations. Stepan is OK, Zuccarello can be when he has the time and room, which isnt often, Richards is cooked.

The elite playmaking ability just isnt there.
But then you give Torts credit for putting a hard working team on the ice. You can't have it both ways. Torts can't work with talent. He must have perfect attitude, great sized, hard nosed players, or he'll throw a tantrum. There is a cap on teams nowadays, you can't build a perfect team. A big part of the challenge is to make it work with flawed players.

Sure Torts could make it work if he had 7-8 guys like Getzlaf, Nash, Perry, E Staal, Malkin (?), E Kane, Towes and co, but I don't think that is a likely roster to get for a NHL team nowadays.

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04-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #599
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If you were the opposition's coach and you see a team that cant break out of the defensive/neutral zones, what are you going to do? Stack the blueline and make the team dump it with no speed (this goes for the PP or ES). I dont think we have more than 1 or 2 players capable of carrying the puck through that situation and making a play.

Theres nothing wrong with dumping and chasing if thats all the opposition gives you. Unfortunately this team has a breakout and a forecheck that sucks. The problem is part talent, part motivation, and part coaching.
Solid points. In theory, I think Nash, Step and McD could carry the puck in nicely there. McD doesn't get much PP time for whatever reason. I think he should start getting more minutes there solely because of his ability to carry the puck in. They desperately need to find ways to carry to start the PP. They waste so much precious time trying to get the puck in the zone.

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04-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #600
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But then you give Torts credit for putting a hard working team on the ice. You can't have it both ways. Torts can't work with talent. He must have perfect attitude, great sized, hard nosed players, or he'll throw a tantrum. There is a cap on teams nowadays, you can't build a perfect team. A big part of the challenge is to make it work with flawed players.

Sure Torts could make it work if he had 7-8 guys like Getzlaf, Nash, Perry, E Staal, Malkin (?), E Kane, Towes and co, but I don't think that is a likely roster to get for a NHL team nowadays.
In my opinion, there is no excuse for not working hard and playing with an edge - even if you're Marian Gaborik.

That mentality is easier to teach than talent.

Torts is also tailor made for NY in that way. You think this is bad? Wait until we have a coach that fields a team that is perceived as soft.

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