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Kurz: Niemi leading contender for Vezina?

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Old
04-18-2013, 09:13 AM
  #76
Pinkfloyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
It's not negligible. It's what separates the goaltenders. Two years ago the difference between Thomas and Rinne were: .938sv 2.00gaa vs .930sv 2.12gaa - negligible difference, yet Thomas won. Niemi has 5 more wins and 6 more starts playing on a much better team. Playoffs argument is stupid - this isn't the MVP award.

But by all means, be a homer.


edit: what's sad is not that the consensus is Bob over Niemi but that Lundqvist is the #2 runner in the race. Just stupid East Coast bias (at least on this board).
Playoff argument may be stupid but there will be plenty of voters who treat the Vezina as the goalie MVP award and think that making the playoffs is pretty much a requirement to win.

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04-18-2013, 02:27 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
It's not negligible. It's what separates the goaltenders. Two years ago the difference between Thomas and Rinne were: .938sv 2.00gaa vs .930sv 2.12gaa - negligible difference, yet Thomas won. Niemi has 5 more wins and 6 more starts playing on a much better team. Playoffs argument is stupid - this isn't the MVP award.

But by all means, be a homer.


edit: what's sad is not that the consensus is Bob over Niemi but that Lundqvist is the #2 runner in the race. Just stupid East Coast bias (at least on this board).
Here's how I see it:

Primary Factors: Sv%, GAA, "System" influence on the two
Secondary Factors: Wins, Big-Game performance, Shutouts
Overused Factors: "value", "familiarity", "exciting to watch"

If the Primary factors are very different, that decides who wins. If Primary factors are the same, you have to consider secondary factors. Rarely get to Tertiary factors. Unfortunately, I believe the media significantly overvalues the 2nd and 3rd grouping because most of them miss games and highlights of non-EST goalies. Also, some people misuse Sv% and GAA by ignoring how the system and talent can significantly affect shot quantity and quality. Some teams have systems that give up many low-quality shots, while others have systems that give up fewer shots but of higher quality. You have to factor that in when looking at GAA and Sv%.

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04-18-2013, 02:37 PM
  #78
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media coverage has impact on less knowledgable voters too i bet. how often is king henrik in the headlines vs any west coast goalie not named quick.

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04-18-2013, 02:58 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
media coverage has impact on less knowledgable voters too i bet. how often is king henrik in the headlines vs any west coast goalie not named quick.
if the headlines sway the GM's then they are effing morons to put it nicely.

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04-18-2013, 04:40 PM
  #80
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his 5-3 PK against the queens was something voters need to watch. even though he gave it up late in the 5-4, he made some amazing saves.

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04-18-2013, 04:45 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
media coverage has impact on less knowledgable voters too i bet. how often is king henrik in the headlines vs any west coast goalie not named quick.
Have to remember that it's the GMs who vote, not the hockey writers.

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04-18-2013, 04:47 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Have to remember that it's the GMs who vote, not the hockey writers.
and yet we all complain of east coast bias. it correlates, not saying its 100% the reason.

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04-18-2013, 04:58 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Have to remember that it's the GMs who vote, not the hockey writers.
How many GMs have actually been involved with goaltending? IIRC, only Rutherford. IIRC, Davidson has been a GM at points during his post-hockey career. I would count anyone who has goaltended even if it wasn't at NHL level.

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04-18-2013, 04:59 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
and yet we all complain of east coast bias. it correlates, not saying its 100% the reason.
as much as i think nabby got robbed in his 1 nomination, it was still hard to choose against brodeur that season also. basically identical numbers (nabby had a few more wins), brodeur just was just as good as nabby.

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04-18-2013, 05:00 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
How many GMs have actually been involved with goaltending? IIRC, only Rutherford. IIRC, Davidson has been a GM at points during his post-hockey career. I would count anyone who has goaltended even if it wasn't at NHL level.
true, but they also have the ability to ask plenty of other people who know what they are talking about in that regards. scouts, coaches, players, hell even media.

media is just media, and they all think they know every thing about anything and everything.

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04-18-2013, 05:03 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Have to remember that it's the GMs who vote, not the hockey writers.
But they almost always vote the same. The only recent exceptions have been when Roy and Nabakov were named to the 1st All-Star team in (2002 and 2008) but Theodore and Brodeur won the Vezina.

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04-18-2013, 05:53 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
true, but they also have the ability to ask plenty of other people who know what they are talking about in that regards. scouts, coaches, players, hell even media.

media is just media, and they all think they know every thing about anything and everything.
But do they take the time to ask? And, are the people that they are asking that good at evaluating?

I almost wish that it was a vote of retired goalies, particularly those who have won the award. Roy, etc. And some ex-goalies are among the media like Resch and Tracy. I could also pick out expert goalie coaches judged by the number that they have promoted to the NHL (Allaire, Korn, Tretiak, etc.).

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04-18-2013, 05:54 PM
  #88
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Maybe he doesn't win it, but being a finalist or even a top 4 is awesome for him. Some posters here find it really hard to give the man some credit.

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04-18-2013, 06:38 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
and yet we all complain of east coast bias. it correlates, not saying its 100% the reason.
We complained on east coast bias from headlines on nhl.com (decided by media personnel) and for other awards like the Calder (decided by hockey writers where the majority buy into the media hype).
East coast bias could definitely sway the GMs votes, but I don't think it plays as big of an impact like it does for the other awards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
But they almost always vote the same. The only recent exceptions have been when Roy and Nabakov were named to the 1st All-Star team in (2002 and 2008) but Theodore and Brodeur won the Vezina.
Have they? I don't remember all the nominations from the years back, but I don't think I've ever been surprised that a goalie won. The majority of the time, especially since the lock-out, I thought the goalie that deserved to win won.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
But do they take the time to ask? And, are the people that they are asking that good at evaluating?
No one except the GMs would know that answer.

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