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New "Belle Cut" Thread / U-18 Tournament

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Old
08-10-2003, 05:33 AM
  #1
Prussian_Blue
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New "Belle Cut" Thread / U-18 Tournament

I'm reopening the "Belle Cut" thread, because it has the potential to be a valuable discussion about the merits of Blues' prospects... as long as it's not hijacked into another "p***ing contest," as Buffaloed said when he closed the original thread.

Execwrite started the thred off by posting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by execwrite
It looks like Shawn Belle didn't make the final roster for Canada's Under-18 team that plays in Europe in a couple of weeks.

I think David Backes is a possibility for the final American team roster.
Piecho also noted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by piecho
Maybe the fact that he is 18 is why he was cut from the UNDER-18 squad.

He did win Gold with the team last year and was named Top Defensemen in the 2002 Eight Nation Cup.
Some questions I have to get this ball rolling:

1). Does anyone know who made the cut for Canada, and for the US?

2). Any word on if any of the Blues' Euro prospects are going to be in this tournament? Barulin? Aaltonen? Pervyshin?

3). What do we think of Belle not making the cut? How about Backes, if he doesn't? Is that necessarily a poor refelction on the Blues' scouting staff if their top two draft picks don't get on these teams?

Let's discuss... civilly.

PB

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08-10-2003, 06:00 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
3). What do we think of Belle not making the cut? How about Backes, if he doesn't?
To me it makes no difference if either makes or doesn't make the cut there. Lets worry about it in a couple years if they've not made any developemental progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
Is that necessarily a poor refelction on the Blues' scouting staff if their top two draft picks don't get on these teams?

PB
Nope, not in the least. The goal of a scout is to find players that will play in the NHL, not on some under-18 team. If neither makes it to the NHL then that would be a poor reflection, but until then it shows nothing.

After all, which would you rather have, a superstar 17 year old that doesn't dent the NHL or a twenty-somthing NHL All Star?

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08-10-2003, 08:14 AM
  #3
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What I want to know is how he got cut from a team he is not eligible to play for!!

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Old
08-10-2003, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 210
To me it makes no difference if either makes or doesn't make the cut there. Lets worry about it in a couple years if they've not made any developemental progress.
Agreed. In the NHL, players aren't drafted for today; they're drafted for three, four years down the road. Let's worry about the guys that were drafted three, four years ago -- Starling, Byrne, Osaer, Hemingway, Riddle, Divis, Kinos -- and where they're at now (all either playing at Worcester at least part-time, about to do so, or in the case of Riddle, about to enter their senior year with the defending back-to-back national champions), and let Belle and Backes have their time to develop.

It's interesting to note that, of the 19 players drafted by the Blues in 1999 and 2000, two are full-time NHLers (Jackman and Khavanov), four more have had cups of coffee (Papineau, Divis, Smrek with the Blues; Taffe with Phoenix), three were traded in deals for current core players (Papineau, Taffe and Morriset), and only six (Bergeron, Weller, Lutes, Vikingstad, McMeekin and Desmarais -- none drafted any higher than 96th overall) can be clearly categorized as "busts" in that they're not contributing to the organization now, or weren't traded for a current asset.

One-third of the draftees from that time frame are contributing NHL players or on the verge of it, one third are prospects, and one third are clear misses. That's not a bad ratio, methinks...

Contrast that with mighty, mighty Detroit, who drafted 17 players total in 1999 and 2000, and only one of them -- Zetterberg -- is a contributing NHL player now.

A few others -- Liv, Kopecky, Kronwall -- are solid prospects, but the rest of their list from those two drafts reads (to me, anyway) like a "Who's He" rather than a "Who's Who."

Quote:
Originally Posted by 210
Nope, not in the least. The goal of a scout is to find players that will play in the NHL, not on some under-18 team. If neither makes it to the NHL then that would be a poor reflection, but until then it shows nothing.

After all, which would you rather have, a superstar 17 year old that doesn't dent the NHL or a twenty-somthing NHL All Star?
You're preaching to the choir with me, 210, but I hear ya.

It's this kind of sensible, rational, objective viewpoint that makes this forum an absolute joy to be in. The malcontents might think of it as all "happy happy, joy joy," but that's not it at all.

There are plenty of people here already who are less than enthused about Pleau, or Quenneville, or Johnson, or many other facets of the Blues as they're currently configured. And that's OK.

The difference between this forum, and some of the others, is that in this forum, people can express their views and, as long as they do so intelligently and rationally -- and bring something besides "clever" intentional misspellings of players' names, or "Pleau is dum we should of got Goalie X" -- they'll be left to do so.

If I were all about censorship, as someone recently claimed, I could easily have banned that Epsilon guy who kept misrepresenting my statements about Fedorov and badgering me about Shanahan. I didn't, because he presented his points in a reasonable, rational, and generally non-insulting fashion (with one notable exception).

He had something besides "Goalie X is a clear upgrade over Osgood and Johnson and if you can't see that you don't know anything." And I respected that, even if I didn't agree with what he had to say.

PB

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Old
08-11-2003, 06:50 AM
  #5
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Backes Tied for 4th in usa scoring with 2g and 2a in the National Junior Evaluation Camp. O'sullivan tore it up apparently with 9 points.

Here's the link:

David Backes

Too Bad we couldnt have seen nissinen play for the finnish team. I tried that link thing 210 showed PB on the traverse city thread. I hope it worked.

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08-11-2003, 10:05 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piecho
What I want to know is how he got cut from a team he is not eligible to play for!!
I am not sure if this was a serious question on your part, but why would he NOT be eligible to play for that team?

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08-11-2003, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piecho
What I want to know is how he got cut from a team he is not eligible to play for!!

Why would he NOT be eligible to play for that team?

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08-11-2003, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purple_heart
I am not sure if this was a serious question on your part, but why would he NOT be eligible to play for that team?
I think its because he is 18.

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Old
08-11-2003, 10:35 AM
  #9
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Belle is to old to play. He played last year. Currently he is at the U20 team canada summer evaluation.

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Old
08-11-2003, 05:41 PM
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I think the confusion stems from the fact that the tournament that Backes is participating in right now is NOT the u18 world cup.

The tournament that Backes is playing at is the u20 Summer Challenge that just includes two US teams, Finland, and Sweden.

And as someone already mentioned, Belle is at the u20 Canadian WJC evaluation camp (or soon, I'm not sure if it's started yet).

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08-11-2003, 11:17 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
:2). Any word on if any of the Blues' Euro prospects are going to be in this tournament? Barulin? Aaltonen? Pervyshin?
No, they are too old, it's under-18 tournament. Theoreticly some players drafted in 2003 draft could be eligible, but the idea is to use the players who could be eligible to play in U18 WC 2004.

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Old
08-12-2003, 12:21 PM
  #12
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A note for PB: Kinos is at Peoria (has never made it to Worcester AFAIK, and don't count on him getting there anytime soon) and Lutes just finished juniors with the Montreal Rocket as their leading scorer, something like 35-48-83, but I don't think the Blues signed him.

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08-12-2003, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
A note for PB: Kinos is at Peoria (has never made it to Worcester AFAIK, and don't count on him getting there anytime soon)...
Link to Kinos file at IHDB

He played some at Worcester in each of his first two pro seasons, Irish... and since he only played 33 games this year, I'll assume he was hurt for some time, or he would probably have gotten at least the same 10-game look-see he got his first two years.

6-03, 195, 23 years old, seems to have a little offense (at least at the ECHL level). I don't think he should be given up on just yet... I'd be interested to know what Kekalainen thinks of his countryman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
...and Lutes just finished juniors with the Montreal Rocket as their leading scorer, something like 35-48-83, but I don't think the Blues signed him.
Fully aware of all points, Irish. I questioned why the Blues didn't offer him a contract, and still do, considering the lack of forward prospects the system still has. The guy obviously can score. I don't think anyone else drafted him after he re-entered, so AFAIK he's a free agent. Maybe if he goes to Traverse City, and the Blues like what they see, he could still get a shot, but who knows?

I categorized the selection of Lutes as a "bust" because they didn't sign him, and because he's not contributing to the organ-I-zation right now -- not because it wasn't evident that he has some talent.

PB

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08-17-2003, 01:25 PM
  #14
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Wow

You guys are ridiculous. I was just browsing through the forum and you guys do not seem to have a clue.

First of all Belle is too old to play of the Canadian U-18 team this year. Cut and dry, he is not eligible to play, he did not get cut.

Second of all, as someone mentioned, Belle played at the same tourney(U-18) last year WHEN HE WAS ELIGIBLE, and was named top d-man at the tourney, and was possibly the best player in the tourney. Get it straight.

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08-17-2003, 02:15 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky
You guys are ridiculous. I was just browsing through the forum and you guys do not seem to have a clue.

First of all Belle is too old to play of the Canadian U-18 team this year. Cut and dry, he is not eligible to play, he did not get cut.

Second of all, as someone mentioned, Belle played at the same tourney(U-18) last year WHEN HE WAS ELIGIBLE, and was named top d-man at the tourney, and was possibly the best player in the tourney. Get it straight.
I guess you didnt read every post.

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08-17-2003, 05:07 PM
  #16
Prussian_Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topshelf331
I guess you didnt read every post.
Most troublemakers (read: "trolls") don't.

Shine him on, topshelf... I already have.

PB

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08-17-2003, 05:49 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrussianBlue
Fully aware of all points, Irish. I questioned why the Blues didn't offer him a contract, and still do, considering the lack of forward prospects the system still has. The guy obviously can score. I don't think anyone else drafted him after he re-entered, so AFAIK he's a free agent. Maybe if he goes to Traverse City, and the Blues like what they see, he could still get a shot, but who knows?

I categorized the selection of Lutes as a "bust" because they didn't sign him, and because he's not contributing to the organ-I-zation right now -- not because it wasn't evident that he has some talent.

PB
The Blues actually cut their ties with Lutes long before their two year deadline to get him under contract before losing his rights.

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08-18-2003, 06:46 AM
  #18
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Duly noted on Kinos, PB.

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Old
12-30-2003, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues
Duly noted on Kinos, PB.
If anyone`s interested:

Lauri Kinos is now playing in Finland in SM-league. He had try-out period with last years champion team Tappara Tampere and played with them 19 games. His stats in Tappara were 0+0 and plus/minus rating: +7. After that Lauri made himself clear that he didn`t want to continue with Tappara and made 1,5 year contract with his native club JYP Jyvaskyla.

In european ice Lauri has played excilent defensive game. He plays without taking any risks. Brings calmness to our defence. You don`t even notice the guy on ice. That`s good thing if you`re a defenceman. Maybe he should use his big size more to his advantage. Doesn´t do magic with the puck, but doesn`t even try to. Needs work his lateral movement, but maybe it`s just about getting to right feel to this big ice surface.

Couple of years here and maybe another try to NHL?

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12-30-2003, 05:08 AM
  #20
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SergeiK... the only times I've been able to see Kinos play has been during Blues' training camp where they hold a 4 team scrimage tournament for the first 4 days of camp. And, each time I have been impressed with him. Maybe 210 can give us an explanation of why he wasn't able to consistantly make it at Worcester because I certainly can't see what 7 defensemen were putting him out of a job.

 
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