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Josh Gorges $3.9M/6 years Bad Contract or Good?

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Old
04-18-2013, 12:04 PM
  #226
HiggsBozon
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It is certainly a bad contract. The only thing gorges is doing great is blocking shots. In other departments, he is a ok D-man, nothing more. He is not overly physical, does not play great defence and his offensive game is........ not very good.

I'm not a big fan of Drewiski, on a team not depleted by injury he is a sub d-man, but right now, he is performing as well as gorges is for 3,2 millions less...

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04-18-2013, 12:51 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He's stuggled the last 3 games, not enough of a sample to bring up cap hits and players' worth.

Price has also been terrible the last 4 games.
he hasnt looked like his old self all year

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04-18-2013, 12:55 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
he hasnt looked like his old self all year
I don't know why people keep saying it's only been for 3 games. It's pretty damn obvious Gorges hasn't been good this year.

But as Whitesnake said the other day, bring that up once we're in a winning streak, and you get insulted for being a "clueless hater" since you criticize a player on a winning team. Bring that up in a losing streak, you're an opportunist with an agenda.

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04-18-2013, 01:09 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
I don't know why people keep saying it's only been for 3 games. It's pretty damn obvious Gorges hasn't been good this year.

But as Whitesnake said the other day, bring that up once we're in a winning streak, and you get insulted for being a "clueless hater" since you criticize a player on a winning team. Bring that up in a losing streak, you're an opportunist with an agenda.
Because some people only see problems when we're losing. More astute people see problems when we're winning. I didn't like Gorges the minute that contract was signed. Then he proceeded to stink it up all season. Do I like Gorges? Yes, but he is paid like a core player when he is replaceable IMO.

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04-18-2013, 01:24 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
And I personally am glad there aren't more people like you here who throw insults away at others as soon as they have a different opinion than yours.

If you're so smart, why don't you make a list of every aspect of the game Gorges is better than Drewiske in and explain how it's worth 3.2M more.
I don't mind people having a different opinion than me, as long as it is a warranted opinion. You claim Drewiske is on the same level as gorges... I disagree. I don't even need to take out complicated stats to tell you your opinion is wrong (you can still have it, I'm not taking it away from you).

Gorges plays more ice time than Drewiske, plays against tougher oppostion and plays more time on the PK. Blocks more shots per game and hits more per game. I can't believe I actually have to discuss this.

Edit: and the other thing I don't like about how posters are jumping on Gorges now, is because he is having a bad stretch. You don't trade players for a bad stretch, you don't promote borderline NHL defenseman like Drewiske over Gorges or give him the same responsibilities because he's a bigger body. All your arguments make no sense and just seem like you are an over-emotional bipolar fan who hates on everything when the team sucks, and loves everything when the team is great.

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04-18-2013, 01:27 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
he hasnt looked like his old self all year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I don't mind people having a different opinion than me, as long as it is a warranted opinion. You claim Drewiske is on the same level as gorges... I disagree. I don't even need to take out complicated stats to tell you your opinion is wrong (you can still have it, I'm not taking it away from you).

Gorges plays more ice time than Drewiske, plays against tougher oppostion and plays more time on the PK. Blocks more shots per game and hits more per game. I can't believe I actually have to discuss this.
Once again, can Gorges play better than Drewiske? Yes
Is Gorges a better player than Drewiske? Yes.

Is Gorges, at the moment, playing better than Drewiske. No. It's just that simple.

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04-18-2013, 01:35 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Once again, can Gorges play better than Drewiske? Yes
Is Gorges a better player than Drewiske? Yes.

Is Gorges, at the moment, playing better than Drewiske. No. It's just that simple.
I hate doing this because it takes too much effort to really explain a simple concept. You're now contradicting yourself. You say drew is just as good as gorges is this moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Isn't a guy who is "top 2 on many teams" and "top-4 on many teams" supposed to be able to handle those kinds of assignments, which he just can't this year? Just saying...
Here you suggest Gorges can't handle top 4 minutes, when clearly he has if the habs were this successful with him playing 3rd most minutes per game on the team.

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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
I thought Gorges played bad even back when we were winning. He was playing almost 3 minutes less than he did last season before Emelin got injured, there's a reason for that. In no way was he being played "#2-3"... unless you're like the other guy and think he's superior to Subban?

He sucked bad, no matter the assignments he got. I personally can't even see a single difference between him and Drewiske besides shot blocking.
Here you suggest I think Gorges is better than subban because I said he's been playing as a #2-3 defenseman on this surprising team, and suggest that gorges has sucked bad all season the same way he has been sucking recently.

So you basically are suggesting that the way gorges has been playing this whole season is on the same level as drewiske with more shot blocking.

Now do you see how your arguments are going all over the place? you're contradicting yourself, etc. I don't mind when people disagree with me with good arguments. I do mind bipolar fans who hate for the sake of scapegoating because the player hasn't had a very good stretch of games. It's embarrassing to other habs fans.

Get your arguments in check, and I'll respect your opinion.

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04-18-2013, 01:43 PM
  #233
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For me,

Desharnais, Gionta & Gorges gotta go

The one thing that i really dislike about Gorges is how he tries to pinch and how he takes a lot of shots like he's an offensive D.

All he has to do is pass to Subban and go back in def.

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04-18-2013, 02:05 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Once again, can Gorges play better than Drewiske? Yes
Is Gorges a better player than Drewiske? Yes.

Is Gorges, at the moment, playing better than Drewiske. No. It's just that simple.
I fail to see why gorges struggling over 2-3 games is such a big deal...sounds like a hidden or alternate agenda.

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04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
I don't know why people keep saying it's only been for 3 games. It's pretty damn obvious Gorges hasn't been good this year.

But as Whitesnake said the other day, bring that up once we're in a winning streak, and you get insulted for being a "clueless hater" since you criticize a player on a winning team. Bring that up in a losing streak, you're an opportunist with an agenda.
Obviously MT and MB don't agree since he's been getting big minutes 5 on 5 and on PK all year. If he was anywhere near as bad as you suggest that ice time would have gone to Emelin, Bouillon or Diaz.

If he was anywhere near as bad as you suggest he also wouldn't be a plus player playing against tough matchups(top lines) 5 on 5. The facts simply prove you wrong.

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04-18-2013, 02:12 PM
  #236
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What's wrong with everyone?
Yes, Gorges is under-performing this year.
Thus, he's not playing up to what his salary pays him.
But...it's just this year. If he's playing like crap next year, yes, you have legit reason to crap on him but everyone have their off years. And most come back. Pleks had his, DD is going through that right now, Price, etc. etc. Everyone. If we crapped on every player on the habs when they are having off years we wouldn't have anyone left.
Heck, EVERY team have under-performing players. You just have to hope that YOUR team have more players who are playing up to par or over achieving than the next team.

Of course, those who are steadily declining via age, injury or wear and tear is another thing totally. And I don't think Gorges is in that category (just yet).

Calm down, deal with it, let it ride and see how we are next year.

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04-18-2013, 02:32 PM
  #237
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How many games will it take before more people agree that this contract is awful?

I'm not saying Gorges is a bad player, or that he won't get out of this funk but right now 6 years is just awful. Not immovable though, if it came down to it.

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04-18-2013, 02:40 PM
  #238
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This is just what solid (yes, Gorges is usually solid) dmen cost. The top cap hit comps 27-30 years old are Gleason, Gilbert, Michalek, Whitney, Ehrhoff and Meszaros (with terms ranging from 4 to 10 years, 6 being the most common). IMO Gorges fits in that group. Of course we`d rather have a group of dependable, 24 year old, underpaid dmen... so would every team in the league. There`s a league-wide shortage of this player type.

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04-18-2013, 03:19 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
I hate doing this because it takes too much effort to really explain a simple concept. You're now contradicting yourself. You say drew is just as good as gorges is this moment.



Here you suggest Gorges can't handle top 4 minutes, when clearly he has if the habs were this successful with him playing 3rd most minutes per game on the team.



Here you suggest I think Gorges is better than subban because I said he's been playing as a #2-3 defenseman on this surprising team, and suggest that gorges has sucked bad all season the same way he has been sucking recently.

So you basically are suggesting that the way gorges has been playing this whole season is on the same level as drewiske with more shot blocking.

Now do you see how your arguments are going all over the place? you're contradicting yourself, etc. I don't mind when people disagree with me with good arguments. I do mind bipolar fans who hate for the sake of scapegoating because the player hasn't had a very good stretch of games. It's embarrassing to other habs fans.

Get your arguments in check, and I'll respect your opinion.
First of all, I don't give a flying crap about what you think of my opinion.

Secondly, what I'm saying is that, based on history and based on what he did in the past, Gorges is, of course, a better player than Drewiske. This season though, based on what Drewiske has done with us, and based on how Gorges has played this season, their contributions to the success of this team are not that far away. Gorges has been playing bad for all year, and even if people will come up with the +14 argument (which is as silly as any), and that some will even have the guts to push it as far as saying Gorges has been better than Subban for the last 2 years seasons before this one, last year, he still was not playing anywhere close to a 3.9M d-man.

He's probably the most uni-dimensional player on this team. He brings shot-blocking and some defensive play, but is not physical at all, has an erratic 1st pass, loses more battles along the board than he wins, and is an offensive blackhole.

Now, can a team win with a Josh Gorges in the lineup? Of course. Yes it can.

Can a team like Montreal, with the current makeup of our d-core, win with a guy like Gorges acting as a shutdown guy? I wouldn't count on it. At least not when you have Emelin, Diaz and Bouillon also playing regularly.

Is Gorges, taking his contributions ALL AROUND the ice, worth 3.9M in my opinion? No. In my mind, he's a 2.5M d-man, kind of like Gill was his whole career. 3M max if the contract was on the shorter term.

Is Gorges a core player? No. Not even close. In the sense that if we lost him at some point, we could easily replace him on the UFA market, unlike guys like Subban, Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, and eventually Galchenyuk/Gallagher, who have some skillset that is very hard to find via trades or UFA signings.

That being said, his play this season has been very, very bad. Throughout all the season. And that's pathetic that you call out the whole fanbase and say the put Habs fans to a shame because they express their opinion and criticize a player in a losing streak. Because there's no way anyone who is a critic of a particular player has his way here. Because if you complain in a winning streak, you get the "chillax, we got this, you're overreacting, Leafs board is on this way" speech. So give me a break with your accusations.

By the way, when you expressed "#2-#3 d-man", that implied that he was ahead or on par with either Markov or Subban, because, guess what, they're the ones I consider to be our top-2 d-man. So yeah. That's pretty much what you implied by saying he was a "#2-#3 d-man on a winning team". Which he was not. By ice time alone, he was the 3rd most used d-man. And before Emelin went down, his average TOI was on par with him at around 20 minutes a game. And that, even with Diaz hurt...

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04-18-2013, 03:27 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Obviously MT and MB don't agree since he's been getting big minutes 5 on 5 and on PK all year. If he was anywhere near as bad as you suggest that ice time would have gone to Emelin, Bouillon or Diaz.

If he was anywhere near as bad as you suggest he also wouldn't be a plus player playing against tough matchups(top lines) 5 on 5. The facts simply prove you wrong.
You realize he got 3rd pairing assignments with Diaz before the injuries kicked in, and that he was close with Emelin in terms of TOI per game, because Emelin went down, right?

On the PK, duh. Of course he's going to play in those situations. That's pretty much the only situation where he's sometimes worth his contract. And if you notice, with Gill gone and him still in, our PK took a serious dive this season. That might be a sign that a guy like Gill was a bigger part of this aspect of the game than Gorges...

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04-18-2013, 03:30 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
First of all, I don't give a flying crap about what you think of my opinion.

Secondly, what I'm saying is that, based on history and based on what he did in the past, Gorges is, of course, a better player than Drewiske. This season though, based on what Drewiske has done with us, and based on how Gorges has played this season, their contributions to the success of this team are not that far away. Gorges has been playing bad for all year, and even if people will come up with the +14 argument (which is as silly as any), and that some will even have the guts to push it as far as saying Gorges has been better than Subban for the last 2 years seasons before this one, last year, he still was not playing anywhere close to a 3.9M d-man.

He's probably the most uni-dimensional player on this team. He brings shot-blocking and some defensive play, but is not physical at all, has an erratic 1st pass, loses more battles along the board than he wins, and is an offensive blackhole.

Now, can a team win with a Josh Gorges in the lineup? Of course. Yes it can.

Can a team like Montreal, with the current makeup of our d-core, win with a guy like Gorges acting as a shutdown guy? I wouldn't count on it. At least not when you have Emelin, Diaz and Bouillon also playing regularly.

Is Gorges, taking his contributions ALL AROUND the ice, worth 3.9M in my opinion? No. In my mind, he's a 2.5M d-man, kind of like Gill was his whole career. 3M max if the contract was on the shorter term.

Is Gorges a core player? No. Not even close. In the sense that if we lost him at some point, we could easily replace him on the UFA market, unlike guys like Subban, Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, and eventually Galchenyuk/Gallagher, who have some skillset that is very hard to find via trades or UFA signings.

That being said, his play this season has been very, very bad. Throughout all the season. And that's pathetic that you call out the whole fanbase and say the put Habs fans to a shame because they express their opinion and criticize a player in a losing streak. Because there's no way anyone who is a critic of a particular player has his way here. Because if you complain in a winning streak, you get the "chillax, we got this, you're overreacting, Leafs board is on this way" speech. So give me a break with your accusations.

By the way, when you expressed "#2-#3 d-man", that implied that he was ahead or on par with either Markov or Subban, because, guess what, they're the ones I consider to be our top-2 d-man. So yeah. That's pretty much what you implied by saying he was a "#2-#3 d-man on a winning team". Which he was not. By ice time alone, he was the 3rd most used d-man. And before Emelin went down, his average TOI was on par with him at around 20 minutes a game. And that, even with Diaz hurt...
How many top 4 d-men not on ELC's make less than 4 mil per year? I'm sure the list is pretty short and filled with low end top 4's and reclamation projects.

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04-18-2013, 04:17 PM
  #242
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How many top 4 d-men not on ELC's make less than 4 mil per year? I'm sure the list is pretty short and filled with low end top 4's and reclamation projects.
I can tell you most of them bring more than Gorges does. He blocks shots and is a "leader". That's about it. He brings nothing else on the ice. $4M over 6 years is fair?

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04-18-2013, 05:14 PM
  #243
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Quote:
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How many top 4 d-men not on ELC's make less than 4 mil per year? I'm sure the list is pretty short and filled with low end top 4's and reclamation projects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Boston: Boychuk (3.3M)
Buffalo: Sekera, to be generous since it's a weird situation (2.9M)
Ottawa: Phillips (3M)
Toronto: Gunnarsson (1.3M)

NJ: Salvador (3.1M)
NYR: Del Zotto(2.5M)
NYI: MacDonald (0.5M)
Pittsburgh: Niskanen (2.3M)
Philly: Meszaros (4M)

Carolina: Corvo (2M)
Florida: Kuba (4M)
TB: Brewer (3.8M)
Washington: Poti (2.8M)
Winnipeg: Hainsey (4.5M)
Look up winner. Those amounted for an average of 2.5-3M, and that's not even taking them all into account. They are all, by definition, the #4 d-man of these respective teams.

There's also Lydman (3M), Beauchemin (3.5M), Allen (3.5M), Hjalmarsson (3.5M), Erik Johnson (3.750M), Hejda (3.25M), Robidas (3.3M), Kronwall (a #1 d-man and Norris contender not even making 900K more than Gorges at 4.750M), Matt Greene (2.950M), Scuderi (3.4M, which was considered insane on the UFA market), Rostislav Klesla (2.975M), Derek Morris (2.750M), Brad Stuart (3.6M), Barrett Jackman (3.166M), Roman Polak (2.750M), just running through Western teams rosters. I would take each of them before Gorges. Way before in some cases.

And I didn't even mention those who make around the same money (about 4M per season) and who are way, way better to Gorges.

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04-18-2013, 05:35 PM
  #244
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Totally agree with you Higgs, RIGHT NOW Drewiski is playing at a level similar to gorges one. That's not a secret that Gorges is not performing well right now. He is simply not playing like a 3,9 millions defensive defenseman right now. That's my point. When you pay someone 3,9 to play good defense and to block shots, you expect this person to do it good...

Right now, is gorges playing good defense? Don't think so... He's having a rough time...


Last edited by HiggsBozon: 04-18-2013 at 05:46 PM.
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04-18-2013, 05:43 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Look up winner. Those amounted for an average of 2.5-3M, and that's not even taking them all into account. They are all, by definition, the #4 d-man of these respective teams.

There's also Lydman (3M), Beauchemin (3.5M), Allen (3.5M), Hjalmarsson (3.5M), Erik Johnson (3.750M), Hejda (3.25M), Robidas (3.3M), Kronwall (a #1 d-man and Norris contender not even making 900K more than Gorges at 4.750M), Matt Greene (2.950M), Scuderi (3.4M, which was considered insane on the UFA market), Rostislav Klesla (2.975M), Derek Morris (2.750M), Brad Stuart (3.6M), Barrett Jackman (3.166M), Roman Polak (2.750M), just running through Western teams rosters. I would take each of them before Gorges. Way before in some cases.

And I didn't even mention those who make around the same money (about 4M per season) and who are way, way better to Gorges.
A lot of the guys you listed are on RFA deals which makes a huge difference.

Here's the list of comparables from capgeek if we exclude the players on their RFA deals

Brewer
Liles
Zidlicky
Gleason
Gilbert
Michalek
Kuba
Whitney
Ehrhoff
Giordano
Regehr
Quincey
Salo
Orpik


Some are better, some are worse but Gorges is not out of place with that group.

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04-18-2013, 05:43 PM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Isn't a guy who is "top 2 on many teams" and "top-4 on many teams" supposed to be able to handle those kinds of assignments, which he just can't this year? Just saying...
And with the team in 1st place despite the injuries on defense, exactly how long do you think Gorges has been "proving" that he can't keep up with top lines? A week or two out of, um, the last few years? Just saying...

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A lot of the guys you listed are on RFA deals which makes a huge difference.
Precisely. Gorges' contract reflects the fact that the Habs "bought" the first 6 UFA years (i.e. his "prime", which is kind of lol considering his play of late) of his career.

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04-18-2013, 07:13 PM
  #247
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May not be the best contract per say, but a guy like Gorges, and the attitude and willingness he brings every time he steps on the ice is indispensable.

Glad this guy is wearing an A.


Couldn't ask for a better mentor for Gallagher. It just shows you how much his attitude has rubbed off on this kid.

I say Chuckie needs to move in with them too.

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04-19-2013, 12:27 AM
  #248
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He almost cost his team again tonight with his lazy penalty late in the third on Malone. He was also out of position a dozen times, as was the rest of his bonehead blueline partners. Here's a tip, stop trying to block every shot, you are deflecting more onto our net than you are stopping. That goes for the rest of the dmen trying to block shots, but doing more harm than good.

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04-19-2013, 06:56 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by HiggsBozon View Post
Look up winner. Those amounted for an average of 2.5-3M, and that's not even taking them all into account. They are all, by definition, the #4 d-man of these respective teams.

There's also Lydman (3M), Beauchemin (3.5M), Allen (3.5M), Hjalmarsson (3.5M), Erik Johnson (3.750M), Hejda (3.25M), Robidas (3.3M), Kronwall (a #1 d-man and Norris contender not even making 900K more than Gorges at 4.750M), Matt Greene (2.950M), Scuderi (3.4M, which was considered insane on the UFA market), Rostislav Klesla (2.975M), Derek Morris (2.750M), Brad Stuart (3.6M), Barrett Jackman (3.166M), Roman Polak (2.750M), just running through Western teams rosters. I would take each of them before Gorges. Way before in some cases.

And I didn't even mention those who make around the same money (about 4M per season) and who are way, way better to Gorges.
So it's a pretty small list considering there are 120 guys in the NHL playing top 4 minutes. A lot of the guys on the list you quoted were either just cracking the NHL or on RFA's when their contract was signed. If you use a little perspective, just look at what Emelin and Diaz make and what Gorges does. That's the difference between signing an extension as a RFa with very little track record and signing a contract with UFA coming up.

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04-19-2013, 06:59 AM
  #250
Monctonscout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
He almost cost his team again tonight with his lazy penalty late in the third on Malone. He was also out of position a dozen times, as was the rest of his bonehead blueline partners. Here's a tip, stop trying to block every shot, you are deflecting more onto our net than you are stopping. That goes for the rest of the dmen trying to block shots, but doing more harm than good.
You should be an NHL GM or coach, since you obviously know more than them. They pay for and encourage guys to block shots. Do you think players just do it for fun?

The lack of hockey knowledge in this fanbase is truly frightening.


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