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What to do about Toby?

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Old
04-19-2013, 11:23 AM
  #26
wpgsilver
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I wouldn't want to trade Toby, but I'd be willing to for the right return.
That could be said about ANY player though.

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Old
04-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #27
allan5oh
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Mixing up the lines wouldn't be a bad idea. Enstrom and Bogosian didn't seem to have chemistry though.

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Old
04-19-2013, 11:33 AM
  #28
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this obsession over size is silly. we're like top 5 biggest teams in the league. not everyone needs to be 6'5 250 lbs.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:19 PM
  #29
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I don't know if it's because I've been watching him since he entered the league but I look at Toby as easily our best player. He QBs the PP better than Bogo Buff and JOKEnen, he's soooo smart out their and his next contract will be manageable due to the time he's missed.

As for being injured a lot...I realize lately it's been an issue but there was a time not too long ago that he had quite the iron man streak going on (3 Straight seasons without missing a game followed by a 72 game season) so I think that this is more a fluke than something we can start calling a common occurance.

Plus, I REALLY like the idea of having a top 4 of Enstrom - Byfuglien, Trouba - Bogosian...like ALOT lol

My vote is keep him for life.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:31 PM
  #30
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Toby, or not Toby
That is the question
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
With Clitsome on your first pairing
The Slings and Arms of Outrageous Fans
Or to take Arms against a Sea of Ignorance
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more;

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:39 PM
  #31
Mathil8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Toby, or not Toby
That is the question
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
With Clitsome on your first pairing
The Slings and Arms of Outrageous Fans
Or to take Arms against a Sea of Ignorance
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more;

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:46 PM
  #32
StronGeer
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To trade, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that hope of depth, what dreams may come,
When we have traded off this shortened man,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of Byfuglien,
The forward's wrongs, the lazy man's apathy,
The pangs of dropped passes, the zone’s exit,
The insolence of powerplay, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy fakes,
When without himself might our team win
With a bare Blue Line?

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:53 PM
  #33
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Does anyone actually think True North would ask Toby to waive his full nmc a year after giving him a 6 year extension?

I see about a 0% chance they do that. They are clearly trying to build an organization that treats their players well

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Old
04-19-2013, 01:48 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Toby, or not Toby
That is the question
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
With Clitsome on your first pairing
The Slings and Arms of Outrageous Fans
Or to take Arms against a Sea of Ignorance
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more;
There are strange things done in the midnight sun, by the men who moil for goals.
The southern teams have their secret dreams, of respect when the bell tolls.
The hockey nights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever would see,
d'be the night of the draft, if the newly staffed, dared trade away Toby E.

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Old
04-19-2013, 01:58 PM
  #35
garret9
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Some things to think about

Enstrom + Byfuglien WOWY 2012-13
PairTOIGF/20GA/20GF%CF%
Tobi-Buff 129:27 0.772 0.464 62.5 51.6
Tobi apart 64:53 0.617 0.925 40.0 40.3
Buff apart 266:04 1.278 1.278 50.0 47.5

Enstrom + Byfuglien WOWY 2011-12
PairTOIGF/20GA/20GF%CF%
Tobi-Buff 724:41 0.966 0.883 52.2 55.8
Tobi apart 389:12 0.925 0.874 51.4 52.5
Buff apart 724:41 0.786 1.140 40.8 49.9


What does all this crap this mean???

1) Byfuglien does NOT play more careful without Enstrom... look at his GA skyrocketing without Enstrom and getting out shot both seasons without him.
2) Both players are better together than apart... together they put up better results than any D pairing tried by this franchise since 2007.
3) You can't blame the guy who is outscoring his opponents (when away from Hainsey or Bogosian) for the teams win-loss record.
4) Also, NMC and at trade deadline Chevy said the only guys untouchable are those who have contracts that dictate as such

Definately not overrated PP specialist
Looking at NHL for 5v4 defensemen pts/min (played 1.5+ mins per game of PP and at least half the season)
2012-13 5th
2011-12 35th
2010-11 16th
Ya... no...

Bonus just for fun:
Hainsey-Bogosian 2010-12 => GF% 52.3 CF% 49.8 TOI 520:33
Enstrom-Bogosian 2010-12 => GF% 43.5 CF% 48.9 TOI 270:21



So to answer the question what do we do about Tobi? Easy!
If we keep Byfuglien our D-core is pretty much figured out.
You develop Trouba as Bogosian's future partner. As they progress you keep usage the same but push more and more minutes towards them instead of Enstrom-Byfuglien.
*solved*


Last edited by garret9: 04-19-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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Old
04-19-2013, 02:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Toby is overrated as a PP specialist and PP QB for that matter.



Toby's small stature will lead to more injuries as his career progress's, were just starting to see the beginning of a guy who will be more injured than not. Other teams have already figured out pounding on him renders him useless.

I like this thread.

The little fellow is starting to lack durability. He is an asset that should have been moved when his value was higher. The longer Chevy holds onto him the less we can get in return. Moving him before the draft or prior to the strt of next season would be the best bet.

I am on record as wanting the pint sized d-man traded from October 2011.

I recall the pocket lidsrom and lidstrom lite comparisons when he arrived in the peg. This guy is more like diet lidstrom.

Move him!

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:11 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
this obsession over size is silly. we're like top 5 biggest teams in the league. not everyone needs to be 6'5 250 lbs.
Well, maybe the complete lack of size of this particular player is indeed a contributing factor, given that he is regularly tossed around like a rag doll by others - which results in his injuries. A nuanced point of view might in fact be that using a larger-sized player in that spot is perhaps preferable, given that d-men must regularly compete against behemoth-sized forwards.

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:16 PM
  #38
JetsHomer
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Enstrom was playing like a darkhorse Norris contender before he got hurt the first time. He looked worse after coming but he's still a great Dmen. Top 20 in the league. Not a guy you trade because he got hurt twice.

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:18 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Toby, or not Toby
That is the question
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
With Clitsome on your first pairing
The Slings and Arms of Outrageous Fans
Or to take Arms against a Sea of Ignorance
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more;
/golfclap

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:21 PM
  #40
KCjetsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Well, maybe the complete lack of size of this particular player is indeed a contributing factor, given that he is regularly tossed around like a rag doll by others - which results in his injuries. A nuanced point of view might in fact be that using a larger-sized player in that spot is perhaps preferable, given that d-men must regularly compete against behemoth-sized forwards.
in a battle in the corners, toby is the most likely of our d-man to emerge with the puck. that tells me he can outplay behemoths.

his injury issues, while concerning, have not been a pattern in his career. Three injury free years weren't a result of him magically being bigger and stronger during that time. His most recent injury, imo, is a result of being off balance when he was hit, which will happen to anyone.


Last edited by KCjetsfan: 04-19-2013 at 02:22 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old
04-19-2013, 02:26 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
So to answer the question what do we do about Tobi? Easy!
If we keep Byfuglien our D-core is pretty much figured out.
You develop Trouba as Bogosian's future partner. As they progress you keep usage the same but push more and more minutes towards them instead of Enstrom-Byfuglien.
*solved*
Thanks for the helpful analysis.

Has Bogosian ever played the Left side on D? If not, I wonder how he would adjust. A Bogo / Trouba defence pairing would have a great mix of size and mobility, along with physical play (though I'd like Bogo to play a bit more physically).

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:28 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Enstrom was playing like a darkhorse Norris contender before he got hurt the first time. He looked worse after coming but he's still a great Dmen. Top 20 in the league. Not a guy you trade because he got hurt twice.
What help to a team is a guy that is injured a good portion of the time? Perhaps that is a guy you trade if you'd like someone in that spot that will appear listed on your roster on a regular basis. He is indeed quite skilled but is also often physically overwhelmed. I cringe every time that guy takes a hit now. Some of us just prefer d-men that regularly deliver punishment versus regularly absorbing it, I guess.


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Old
04-19-2013, 02:31 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
Thanks for the helpful analysis.

Has Bogosian ever played the Left side on D? If not, I wonder how he would adjust. A Bogo / Trouba defence pairing would have a great mix of size and mobility, along with physical play (though I'd like Bogo to play a bit more physically).
He did when Enstrom got injured against Pittsburgh... playing on your offside isn't optimal as it puts a bit of a handicap, but experience can help mitigate those issues.
It's like size. Having it helps, but doesn't make you good... Missing it hurts, but doesn't make you inherently bad either...
Bogosian should have the skill to be able to compensate over time.

I got all tingly inside when I saw it as my dream for a while for 3-4 years down the road has been:
Bogosian-Trouba
Enstrom-Byfuglien
Kulda-Redmond
Melchiori-Postma/Clitsome/UFA

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:37 PM
  #44
blues10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Enstrom was playing like a darkhorse Norris contender before he got hurt the first time. He looked worse after coming but he's still a great Dmen. Top 20 in the league. Not a guy you trade because he got hurt twice.
He's not in my top 20 or many others but everyone has their own list. I wouldn't want to go to war with this guy in 7 game physical playoff series. He is routinely pushed around by 4th line opposition players.

This nmc may mean that he is here long term to many fans pleasure and to the displeasure of others.

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:39 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Enstrom + Byfuglien WOWY 2012-13
PairTOIGF/20GA/20GF%CF%
Tobi-Buff 129:27 0.772 0.464 62.5 51.6
Tobi apart 64:53 0.617 0.925 40.0 40.3
Buff apart 266:04 1.278 1.278 50.0 47.5

Enstrom + Byfuglien WOWY 2011-12
PairTOIGF/20GA/20GF%CF%
Tobi-Buff 724:41 0.966 0.883 52.2 55.8
Tobi apart 389:12 0.925 0.874 51.4 52.5
Buff apart 724:41 0.786 1.140 40.8 49.9


What does all this crap this mean???

1) Byfuglien does NOT play more careful without Enstrom... look at his GA skyrocketing without Enstrom and getting out shot both seasons without him.
2) Both players are better together than apart... together they put up better results than any D pairing tried by this franchise since 2007.
3) You can't blame the guy who is outscoring his opponents (when away from Hainsey or Bogosian) for the teams win-loss record.
4) Also, NMC and at trade deadline Chevy said the only guys untouchable are those who have contracts that dictate as such

Definately not overrated PP specialist
Looking at NHL for 5v4 defensemen pts/min (played 1.5+ mins per game of PP and at least half the season)
2012-13 5th
2011-12 35th
2010-11 16th
Ya... no...

Bonus just for fun:
Hainsey-Bogosian 2010-12 => GF% 52.3 CF% 49.8 TOI 520:33
Enstrom-Bogosian 2010-12 => GF% 43.5 CF% 48.9 TOI 270:21



So to answer the question what do we do about Tobi? Easy!
If we keep Byfuglien our D-core is pretty much figured out.
You develop Trouba as Bogosian's future partner. As they progress you keep usage the same but push more and more minutes towards them instead of Enstrom-Byfuglien.
*solved*
Show all the stats you want
Jets win more games without him then with him


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Old
04-19-2013, 02:42 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
Show all the stats you want
Jets win more games without him then with him

Go read up on correlation and causation.


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Old
04-19-2013, 02:43 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
in a battle in the corners, toby is the most likely of our d-man to emerge with the puck. that tells me he can outplay behemoths.
You mean aside from the times when he is on the injured list as a result of being fired into the boards by others, right?

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:46 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Go read up on correlation and causation.

What about procrastination and indignation?


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Old
04-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #49
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What about procrastination and indignation?



King Woodballs is here to help.


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Old
04-19-2013, 02:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Enstrom was playing like a darkhorse Norris contender before he got hurt the first time. He looked worse after coming but he's still a great Dmen. Top 20 in the league. Not a guy you trade because he got hurt twice.
Really? He was putting up points, but I think to be a Norris contender you have to be a game-changing player in both ends of the rink. Nobody is concerned about Toby Enstrom in our end.

Enstrom isn't going anywhere, but I think we need to realize his limits along with Byfuglien's. Ideally we'd have a shut-down pair, I think we have half of that with Bogosian, and then Enstrom and Byfuglien to play a little less 5 on 5 than they do now and handle the #1 PP. I don't think we have that pair that can make opposing #1 lines work and pay the price to get to the front of our net, challenge them physically, as well as play their position game in and game out. Big part of the reason why we suck at finishing games and finding consistency IMO.

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