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Old
04-19-2013, 02:56 PM
  #51
Gump Hasek
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Originally Posted by BigZ65 View Post
Really? He was putting up points, but I think to be a Norris contender you have to be a game-changing player in both ends of the rink. Nobody is concerned about Toby Enstrom in our end.

Enstrom isn't going anywhere, but I think we need to realize his limits along with Byfuglien's. Ideally we'd have a shut-down pair, I think we have half of that with Bogosian, and then Enstrom and Byfuglien to play a little less 5 on 5 than they do now and handle the #1 PP. I don't think we have that pair that can make opposing #1 lines work and pay the price to get to the front of our net, challenge them physically, as well as play their position game in and game out. Big part of the reason why we suck at finishing games and finding consistency IMO.
Exactly, well said. It is likely preferable if he was dropped into the second pairing and into a somewhat more limited 5v5 role, while still playing the #1 pp QB role as well.

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04-19-2013, 02:57 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
You mean aside from the times when he is on the injured list as a result of being fired into the boards by others, right?
that's like saying crosby scores alot of points, aside from the times he's out with a concussion. yeah ok. you're telling me you wouldn't take crosby (recent injuries and all) over lumbering 6'6 240 lbs hitter?

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04-19-2013, 03:04 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
that's like saying crosby scores alot of points, aside from the times he's out with a concussion. yeah ok. you're telling me you wouldn't take crosby (recent injuries and all) over lumbering 6'6 240 lbs hitter?
Well, I'd see your point if Crosby's main job was to defend against men that are much larger than him, but it isn't so am a bit confused as such... given that your example doesn't really qualify as analogous, whatsoever. Perhaps you could have chosen instead an example of an undersized d-man that has been often injured of late; can't think of many of those though because most teams use sizable d-men in their top pairs. Wonder why?

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04-19-2013, 03:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
What help to a team is a guy that is injured a good portion of the time? Perhaps that is a guy you trade if you'd like someone in that spot that will appear listed on your roster on a regular basis. He is indeed quite skilled but is also often physically overwhelmed. I cringe every time that guy takes a hit now. Some of us just prefer d-men that regularly deliver punishment versus regularly absorbing it, I guess.

He's played 3 full seasons and was a +6 for us last year. This season is an anomaly for him. Bogo's missed games too, let's dump him!

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04-19-2013, 03:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Well, I'd see your point if Crosby's main job was to defend against men that are much larger than him, but it isn't so am a bit confused as such... given that your example doesn't really qualify as analogous, whatsoever. Perhaps you could have chosen instead an example of an undersized d-man that has been often injured of late; can't think of many of those though because most teams use sizable d-men in their top pairs. Wonder why?
crosby's main work place peril is being hit by big D-men. (ignoring the rare puck to the face of course).
you stated enstrom's main work place peril is being hit ('ragdolled' in your words) by big forwards.

Apparently neither can handle those conditions very well, so they should be replaced by your logic, regardless of their performance in their given role.

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04-19-2013, 03:15 PM
  #56
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I like toby but i ahve been getting alittle hesitant about his injuries.

One more season for me, if he can make it through next season healthy i'll be fully committed to keeping him around. Another season like this one and i think we have to seriously consider him being an injury risk. Some of us are doing that now, i'm not one of them, but i understand it.

With his extension and NMC i'm confident he'll get that one more season at least.

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04-19-2013, 03:21 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
crosby's main work place peril is being hit by big D-men. (ignoring the rare puck to the face of course).
you stated enstrom's main work place peril is being hit ('ragdolled' in your words) by big forwards.

Apparently neither can handle those conditions very well, so they should be replaced by your logic, regardless of their performance in their given role.
We are discussing Enstrom here; not sure why you'd feel discussing anyone else (let alone a player that plays an entirely different position) is somehow at all relevant? Enstrom is indeed a fine player though he is also often physically out of his realm against many forwards in the league and would perhaps be more suited to a role in a lower pairing as such. He has also missed large portions of the last two seasons due that size inequity, and despite all of that talent has been of little help to his team when they truly need him, right now, down the stretch.

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04-19-2013, 03:27 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
We are discussing Enstrom here; not sure why you'd feel discussing anyone else (let alone a player that plays an entirely different position) is somehow at all relevant? Enstrom is indeed a fine player though he is also often physically out of his realm against many forwards in the league and would perhaps be more suited to a role in a lower pairing as such. He has also missed large portions of the last two seasons due that size inequity, and despite all of that talent has been of little help to his team when they truly need him, right now, down the stretch.
Concession accepted. Iíll accept you prefer physical D-men. I prefer talented D-men.

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04-19-2013, 03:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by KCjetsfan View Post
Concession accepted. Iíll accept you prefer physical D-men. I prefer talented D-men.
Concession? Unsure of how you arrived at that conclusion. I prefer reliable d-men myself, versus undersized players that are often on the shelf due their diminutive stature.


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04-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #60
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AFAIC Enstrom is a piece that can play top four on anybody's team at a position we have no other talented players. I think the solution for this was already mentioned on this page. Find Bogo a physical defenseman that can handle big minutes in the top four, then use Enstrom and Buff as the offensive pair and first PP.

Trading him would simply address one weakness and create another.

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04-19-2013, 03:51 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Concession? Unsure of how you arrived at that conclusion. I prefer reliable d-men myself, versus undersized players that are often on the shelf due their diminutive stature.

come one gump, lets not be dishonest.

"I prefer durable(reliable could mean a number of things,he is reliable at statistically at reducing scoring chances and goals against while creating offence) d-men myself, versus undersized players that are often on the shelf due their diminutive stature, but capable of forcing the play into the offensive zone, improving the play of all other players on the ice, and producing more points per 60 minutes of 5v5 icetime then 75% of other demn in the league. "


only saying toby is undersized and often on the shelf is like saying sydny crosby is an injury risk. Yes, he does get injured, but that's hardly the whole story of the player.

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04-19-2013, 03:51 PM
  #62
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Bogosian is of good size and has been much more injury prone then Enstrom, yet we're not questioning his durability... I would be more concerned about a guy that has good size and has only one season where he is close to a full season then an undersized guy who almost never gets hit and has a much better track record of staying healthy.

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04-19-2013, 04:00 PM
  #63
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Of a possible 454 NHL games, Enstrom has played 402. That doesn't make it seem like he has a problem dealing with the physical play of the NHL.

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04-19-2013, 04:00 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
We are discussing Enstrom here; not sure why you'd feel discussing anyone else (let alone a player that plays an entirely different position) is somehow at all relevant? Enstrom is indeed a fine player though he is also often physically out of his realm against many forwards in the league and would perhaps be more suited to a role in a lower pairing as such. He has also missed large portions of the last two seasons due that size inequity, and despite all of that talent has been of little help to his team when they truly need him, right now, down the stretch.
How would playing on a lower pair minimize the impact of size? Lower pairs often play gross grinding hockey vs bottom 6 forwards. Top pairs face a lot lot of speed and smaller / skilled players. Speed / skill is a much better matchup for Toby than 3rd line muckers.

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04-19-2013, 04:07 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
come one gump, lets not be dishonest.

"I prefer durable(reliable could mean a number of things,he is reliable at statistically at reducing scoring chances and goals against while creating offence) d-men myself, versus undersized players that are often on the shelf due their diminutive stature, but capable of forcing the play into the offensive zone, improving the play of all other players on the ice, and producing more points per 60 minutes of 5v5 icetime then 75% of other demn in the league. "


only saying toby is undersized and often on the shelf is like saying sydny crosby is an injury risk. Yes, he does get injured, but that's hardly the whole story of the player.
It isn't at all dishonest to state that I personally prefer d-men that are of a size that they aren't often physically manhandled to the point that they miss large portions of the past two seasons due injury. In that case that player is indeed unreliable in my view, since he apparently can't be relied upon to be on the roster when he is needed, like right now for example.

It is dishonest however to attempt to paint my position as being anything other than that. Hope that helps.

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04-19-2013, 04:12 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by truck View Post
How would playing on a lower pair minimize the impact of size? Lower pairs often play gross grinding hockey vs bottom 6 forwards. Top pairs face a lot lot of speed and smaller / skilled players. Speed / skill is a much better matchup for Toby than 3rd line muckers.
He is currently often being used in a #1 shutdown role that he is not suited to; too much 5V5 against other teams top lines in my own opinion. Your own mileage varies, apparently. Cool. I'm fine with differing views, no biggie either way.

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04-19-2013, 04:12 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Scheifele View Post
I don't know if it's because I've been watching him since he entered the league but I look at Toby as easily our best player. He QBs the PP better than Bogo Buff and JOKEnen, he's soooo smart out their and his next contract will be manageable due to the time he's missed.

As for being injured a lot...I realize lately it's been an issue but there was a time not too long ago that he had quite the iron man streak going on (3 Straight seasons without missing a game followed by a 72 game season) so I think that this is more a fluke than something we can start calling a common occurance.

Plus, I REALLY like the idea of having a top 4 of Enstrom - Byfuglien, Trouba - Bogosian...like ALOT lol

My vote is keep him for life.
you dont go on repetitive 5 game win streaks with your best player out of the lineup
hes in our top 10 best players, but he isnt even our best defenseman

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04-19-2013, 04:13 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jetsfan8 View Post
you dont go on repetitive 5 game win streaks with your best player out of the lineup
hes in our top 10 best players, but he isnt even our best defenseman
Who's played better this year?

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04-19-2013, 04:16 PM
  #69
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i would also like to add

everyone wants to trade byfuglien because of giveaways and some silly plays, correct?

if you go back and watch film, toby has been at fault for many, many, giveaways, and ugly plays that led to goals(doing bellyflops)

toby would be traded 100 times over and over again, before i would even CONSIDER taking calls for byfuglien

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04-19-2013, 04:18 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Duke89 View Post
Who's played better this year?
byfuglien, bogosian

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04-19-2013, 04:30 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by jetsfan8 View Post
byfuglien, bogosian
Byfuglien has been all over the place and has been the direct reason for multiple loses. While he was a big reason we won last night, he was a big reason we were in OT in the first place.

Bogosian has played meh this year. Not nearly as well as last year. Enstrom has played much better this year then last year and has been the most consistent Jet D-man in the lineup every time he's out there. You don't see him making bad passes or bad decisions. You don't see him forgetting where the forwards are in front of his own net.

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04-19-2013, 04:31 PM
  #72
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Whatever is done with him, must be done in the best interests of the team.

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04-19-2013, 04:36 PM
  #73
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Hell, Bogosian might not even outscore Enstrom with 20 more games played. Clearly Enstrom is on another level offensively and the difference in their defense is not nearly as great as their offense right now.

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04-19-2013, 04:38 PM
  #74
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Why on EARTH is there this level of discussion on one of our top D men when a player like Jokenin, who takes up 4.5 mil in cap space, is going completely under the radar?

Absolutely blows my mind.

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04-19-2013, 04:43 PM
  #75
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What are you talking about, no one needs to discuss Joki, everyone already knows he should retire or be send to the NYR's.

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