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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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04-08-2013, 10:33 PM
  #201
overpass
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
-In 5-on-5 (or 4-on-4) situations, no one was better than Wayne Gretzky.
I know you're discussing Gretzky vs Lemieux, but I have to bring up Bobby Orr at this point. Over a 2:1 GF/GA ratio at ES...

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04-08-2013, 10:39 PM
  #202
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I know you're discussing Gretzky vs Lemieux, but I have to bring up Bobby Orr at this point. Over a 2:1 GF/GA ratio at ES...
Yeah, definitely. I just assumed he was thinking of forwards only due to the topic of the thread

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04-08-2013, 10:53 PM
  #203
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So what you're saying is that Rob brown at the NHL level was better than Gerard Gallant and Paul MacLean?
As a player overall no, but as an offensive talent yes and definitely so.

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04-09-2013, 05:40 PM
  #204
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Just to jump in, sometimes playing with mediocre talent can be good for a player's statistics. All the offense has to go through him; he gets more ice time, more special team's time, etc. Where on a more stacked team, the wealth is greater but is more spread around, player may get less ice time, etc.

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04-09-2013, 08:56 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by OrrNumber4 View Post
Just to jump in, sometimes playing with mediocre talent can be good for a player's statistics. All the offense has to go through him; he gets more ice time, more special team's time, etc. Where on a more stacked team, the wealth is greater but is more spread around, player may get less ice time, etc.
definitely. Prime example is Kariya and Selanne in Colorado. I think this affects players that aren't the best on their team more than the best player though.

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04-09-2013, 09:27 PM
  #206
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definitely. Prime example is Kariya and Selanne in Colorado. I think this affects players that aren't the best on their team more than the best player though.
Kariya and Selanne played on the first line with Joe Sakic.

Both finished behind Avs third-liner Steve Konowalchuk in scoring; Kariya with 36 points in 51 games and Selanne with 32 in 78.

Kariya couldn't stay healthy because of his concussion issues and nagging injuries, and Selanne's production was impaired by his knee injury.

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04-09-2013, 10:23 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
So what you're saying is that Rob brown at the NHL level was better than Gerard Gallant and Paul MacLean?
PlayerSeasonsGPG-A-Pts
Rob Brown11543190-248-438
Gerard Gallant11615211-269-480
Paul MacLean11719324-349-673

And here is their total in seasons only with 50+ GP.

Player"50+" seasonsGPG-A-Pts
Rob Brown8525189-242-431
Gerard Gallant8537195-240-435
Paul MacLean9681318-338-656

Averaging out to...

PlayerGPG-A-Pts
Rob Brown6624-30-54
Gerard Gallant6724-30-54
Paul MacLean7635-38-73

What does this show us? That MacLean, who peaked while playing with a peak Dale Hawerchuk in the early to mid-80s, has some excellent scoring numbers in his career for a second-line winger. It also shows us that Brown, who played half of the DPE and was constantly battling nagging injuries (he played 70+ in only two of his 11 seasons; 89-90 and 97-98), put up equal/better numbers than Gallant despite the worse scoring environment he faced, and the coach he had (Bob Johnson) much of his time in his first stint in Pittsburgh.

Gallant is caught in the middle; as a defensively capable, scrappy type, he's the only one who brings something other than scoring. But he's clearly the weakest offensively.

And while Brown was obviously at his best in 88-89, MacLean was having what was arguably the worst season of his career, despite playing on Yzerman's wing.

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04-09-2013, 10:40 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
PlayerSeasonsGPG-A-Pts
Rob Brown11543190-248-438
Gerard Gallant11615211-269-480
Paul MacLean11719324-349-673

And here is their total in seasons only with 50+ GP.

Player"50+" seasonsGPG-A-Pts
Rob Brown8525189-242-431
Gerard Gallant8537195-240-435
Paul MacLean9681318-338-656

Averaging out to...

PlayerGPG-A-Pts
Rob Brown6624-30-54
Gerard Gallant6724-30-54
Paul MacLean7635-38-73

What does this show us? That MacLean, who peaked while playing with a peak Dale Hawerchuk in the early to mid-80s, has some excellent scoring numbers in his career for a second-line winger. It also shows us that Brown, who played half of the DPE and was constantly battling nagging injuries (he played 70+ in only two of his 11 seasons; 89-90 and 97-98), put up equal/better numbers than Gallant despite the worse scoring environment he faced, and the coach he had (Bob Johnson) much of his time in his first stint in Pittsburgh.

Gallant is caught in the middle; as a defensively capable, scrappy type, he's the only one who brings something other than scoring. But he's clearly the weakest offensively.

And while Brown was obviously at his best in 88-89, MacLean was having what was arguably the worst season of his career, despite playing on Yzerman's wing.
Don't suppose you'd care to run the numbers for Bob Errey and average out the numbers of wingers?

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04-09-2013, 11:03 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I know you're discussing Gretzky vs Lemieux, but I have to bring up Bobby Orr at this point. Over a 2:1 GF/GA ratio at ES...
Which is a great number, but I still think Gretzky had a lot more to do with producing his TGF than Orr did.

Otherwise we should say both Gretzky and Lemieux are overrated and Bobby Clarke is the forward to beat.

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04-19-2013, 03:33 AM
  #210
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I was actually thinking about Lemieux's 1988-89 season and the Lindsay/Hart and if he deserved one or both of them.

After looking at Stevie Y's stats - he was 1st in the NHL in Even-Strength Goals and Points also. Lemieux scored 100 points just in 5-4 play, which inflates the point margins, and I think and the players knew it. Gretzky was also like 1 point behind Lemieux in EV points that season.

Yzerman was the Best player in the World that year (overall). I think he deserved it that year.

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04-19-2013, 01:44 PM
  #211
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probably the second best player all time.

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04-19-2013, 01:50 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by markz View Post
I was actually thinking about Lemieux's 1988-89 season and the Lindsay/Hart and if he deserved one or both of them.

After looking at Stevie Y's stats - he was 1st in the NHL in Even-Strength Goals and Points also. Lemieux scored 100 points just in 5-4 play, which inflates the point margins, and I think and the players knew it. Gretzky was also like 1 point behind Lemieux in EV points that season.

Yzerman was the Best player in the World that year (overall). I think he deserved it that year.
goals scored on the power play or penalty kill count too

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04-19-2013, 03:11 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by markz View Post
I was actually thinking about Lemieux's 1988-89 season and the Lindsay/Hart and if he deserved one or both of them.

After looking at Stevie Y's stats - he was 1st in the NHL in Even-Strength Goals and Points also. Lemieux scored 100 points just in 5-4 play, which inflates the point margins, and I think and the players knew it. Gretzky was also like 1 point behind Lemieux in EV points that season.

Yzerman was the Best player in the World that year (overall). I think he deserved it that year.
A) Lemieux led in ES points
B) I don't think there's enough space between Lemieux (102 ES points), Yzerman (101) and Gretzky (100) to say one of them was clearly better than the others, just based on that stat.

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04-19-2013, 03:31 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
A) Lemieux led in ES points
B) I don't think there's enough space between Lemieux (102 ES points), Yzerman (101) and Gretzky (100) to say one of them was clearly better than the others, just based on that stat.
Ahh you're right my mistake But Yzerman Lead In ES Goals 1 PTS behind, where as Lemieux had 97 Points on 5 vs 4 play, Yzerman was more dominant and outstanding that season. Bernie Nicholls also had 70 Goals and same or more ES goals as lemieux

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04-19-2013, 03:33 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by markz View Post
Ahh you're right my mistake But Yzerman Lead In ES Goals 1 PTS behind, where as Lemieux had 97 Points on 5 vs 4 play, Yzerman was more dominant and outstanding that season. Berine also has 70 Goals are and same or more ES goals as lemieux
You do understand that power-play goals and points count too right?

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04-19-2013, 03:35 PM
  #216
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You do understand that power-play goals and points count too right?
I do but if you rely on it, and have Paul Coffey, it's not comparable I feel. Even-Strength is equal-strength play,

The Players thought Yzerman was the Best Player in the World that year.

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04-19-2013, 03:37 PM
  #217
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I do but if you rely on it, and have Paul Coffey, it's as dominating as Yzerman was the Players thought he was the Best Player in the World that year.
Oh the hoops some people will jump through

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04-19-2013, 03:39 PM
  #218
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Oh the hoops some people will jump through
If Lemieux was better he wouldn;t have barely an extra point and less EV goals than Steve Yzerman (and in total was behind Mario by 23 goals and 44 points and still beat him in ESG and lost by 1 ESP)

NHL Players Chose Yzerman as the "Most Outstanding Player" and Canadian Journalists chose Gretzky as "Most Valuable to his team"

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04-19-2013, 03:43 PM
  #219
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If Lemieux was better he wouldn;t have barely an extra point and less EV goals than Steve Yzerman (and in total was behind Mario by 23 goals and still beat him in ESG)
How about that PPGs have exactly the same value as ESGs? The whole ESGs vs PPGs is just spin.

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04-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #220
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How about that PPGs have exactly the same value as ESGs? The whole ESGs vs PPGs is just spin.
Not a spin, Hockey is only sport like Basketball that's throw in penalites to even things up and where "diving" is prevalent.

If Lemieux was better in his peak than Yzerman (both for that Season), than he would have won an 1 of the 2 MVP awards, but he didn't win.

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04-19-2013, 03:53 PM
  #221
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Not a spin, Hockey is only sport like Basketball that's throw in penalites to even things up and where "diving" is prevalent.

If Lemieux was better in his peak than Yzerman (both for that Season), than he would have won an 1 of the 2 MVP awards, but he didn't win.
Football has penalties too. So does baseball even though they don't call them penalties. You DO have to play by the rules in team sports and when you don't you pay. Sports isn't a free-for-all.

Sorry, no matter how much Red Wings propaganda gets tossed around no one is going to be able to spin Yzerman into the ranks of the super-elite like Gretzky and Lemieux (or Orr and Howe for that matter).

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04-19-2013, 04:20 PM
  #222
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Football has penalties too. So does baseball even though they don't call them penalties. You DO have to play by the rules in team sports and when you don't you pay. Sports isn't a free-for-all.

Sorry, no matter how much Red Wings propaganda gets tossed around no one is going to be able to spin Yzerman into the ranks of the super-elite like Gretzky and Lemieux (or Orr and Howe for that matter).
Lemieux is one of the best offensive players in History, but if were talking about the Best overall players ever, he's somewhere between 10-20.

N.A "Small Ice" hockey is different than International "Big Ice" and Internationally, especially on Big Ice - Lemieux was not elite (excluding Canada Cup 1987 with Gretzky - where his points were on the same Level as Marakov and Soviets don't have "Stars" on their team, System First).

Even Gretzky didn't dominate when he played in his peak year in 1982 WC on Big Ice. He won tournament scoring title barley.

Just saying there are different ways of looking at Hockey. That's all


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04-19-2013, 04:26 PM
  #223
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Lemieux is one of the best offensive players in History, but if were talking about the Best overall players ever, he's somewhere between 15-25.

N.A "Small Ice" hockey is different than International "Big Ice" and Internationally, especially on Big Ice - Lemieux was not elite (excluding Canada Cup 1987 with Gretzky - his points were on the same Level as Marakov and Soviets don't have "Stars on their team, pass first). Even Gretzky didn't dominate when he played in his peak year in 1982 WC on Big Ice.
The NHL is the pinnacle of hockey. Let's keep this in an arena that actually counts please.

And btw, I'd rather have "one of the best offensive players in History" on my team than one of the best defensive players in history. Oh, and for the record I don't share the main board's fetish for "two-way" players. Mario and Jagr >>>>> Crosby and Datsyuk.

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04-19-2013, 04:55 PM
  #224
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The NHL is the pinnacle of hockey. Let's keep this in an arena that actually counts please.

And btw, I'd rather have "one of the best offensive players in History" on my team than one of the best defensive players in history. Oh, and for the record I don't share the main board's fetish for "two-way" players. Mario and Jagr >>>>> Crosby and Datsyuk.
I think it's a little insulting to Dats to include Crosby's name in the same sentence as his under the term "2-way play"

Dat's is a true 2-way player.
Crosby is responsible defensively, there's a HUGE difference.

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04-19-2013, 05:01 PM
  #225
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I think it's a little insulting to Dats to include Crosby's name in the same sentence as his under the term "2-way play"

Dat's is a true 2-way player.
Crosby is responsible defensively, there's a HUGE difference.
Yeah I know.....It's just that Crosby is usually held up as some sort of "two-way god" so I figured I'd drop a name that two-way fetishists could relate to

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