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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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Old
04-19-2013, 04:55 PM
  #226
Beau Knows
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So Lemieux, Gretzky and Yzerman were all very good on ES but Lemieux was much better on the PP than everyone else, good for him, why should that be held against him?

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04-19-2013, 04:57 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markz View Post
Lemieux is one of the best offensive players in History, but if were talking about the Best overall players ever, he's somewhere between 10-20.

N.A "Small Ice" hockey is different than International "Big Ice" and Internationally, especially on Big Ice - Lemieux was not elite (excluding Canada Cup 1987 with Gretzky - where his points were on the same Level as Marakov and Soviets don't have "Stars" on their team, System First).

Even Gretzky didn't dominate when he played in his peak year in 1982 WC on Big Ice. He won tournament scoring title barley.

Just saying there are different ways of looking at Hockey. That's all


Mario Lemieux was one of the key players for Team Canada at the '85 Hockey Worlds. He looked very solid on big ice and helped his team win against the Soviets in the medal round.

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04-19-2013, 05:18 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Yeah I know.....It's just that Crosby is usually held up as some sort of "two-way god" so I figured I'd drop a name that two-way fetishists could relate to
Usually the godly or better than human performances are reserved for offensive elites like Wayne and Mario.

and since when did two way hockey players become a fetish?

Isn't the goal of hockey winning games?

If a player, say like Dats can not only score at a high rate but also help out his Dman and goalie in preventing goals become more valuable than a player who simply scores at the same rate that Dats does?

Back to the OP, Mario isn't overrated offensivenley he is one of the best two players of all time along with Wayne.

But as Markz alludes to, if the metric is best overall player of all time then he drops down.

How far depends on the metrics used by those evaluating him.

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04-19-2013, 05:21 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Usually the godly or better than human performances are reserved for offensive elites like Wayne and Mario.

and since when did two way hockey players become a fetish?

Isn't the goal of hockey winning games?

If a player, say like Dats can not only score at a high rate but also help out his Dman and goalie in preventing goals become more valuable than a player who simply scores at the same rate that Dats does?

Back to the OP, Mario isn't overrated offensivenley he is one of the best two players of all time along with Wayne.

But as Markz alludes to, if the metric is best overall player of all time then he drops down.

How far depends on the metrics used by those evaluating him.
If I want to win a hockey game I'll take Gretzky over Datsyuk every trip of the train. Goals >>>>> grinding.

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04-19-2013, 05:26 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
If I want to win a hockey game I'll take Gretzky over Datsyuk every trip of the train. Goals >>>>> grinding.
I would take Wayne as well, in his peak versus Dats peak, say to Wayne's lateish 20's maybe at 28 from that age on Dats is the better bet to win games.

Overall it's still Wayne at his peak over every other forward as well.

With Orr being a Dman not sure if it's a fair comp to make.

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04-19-2013, 05:59 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I would take Wayne as well, in his peak versus Dats peak, say to Wayne's lateish 20's maybe at 28 from that age on Dats is the better bet to win games.
Don't start this again.
You were proven wrong at every turn in the other thread, extremely thoroughly.
Gretzky was still Elite both offensively AND as an even strength player in general compared to anyone else in the League up to 90/91. He just wasn't "Super Elite" anymore.
This was all proven beyond conclusively!

You also never came up with any evidence what so ever that Gretzky's ability to influence wins was diminished to any substantial degree prior to the Suter hit.

Either back this up with some actual evidence instead of goal post moving and double talk or stop saying it please.

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04-19-2013, 06:58 PM
  #232
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From 28 on I would take Dats and here is why.

For his 3 seasons age 28.29 and 30 his ESGF/ESGA ratio is 1.84

Wayne's is 1.16

For Dats age 31,32,33 his 3 year average is 1.42

Wayne's is 0.93

There is no doubt as to which player I would want out on the ice after the age of 28 and it's Dats.

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04-19-2013, 06:59 PM
  #233
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Here we go with meaningless +/- babble again

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04-19-2013, 07:05 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Here we go with meaningless +/- babble again
If a player has more goals scored against him while he on the ice than for, is his team winning many games?

In fantasy hockey pure scoring counts for everything , in real hockey the prevention of goals is half of the equation.

This is Dats, an elite scorer who is also elite defensively we are talking about here, not Bob Gainey (who is also over rated when compared to a guy like Craig Ramsey IMO, being part of a dynasty can do that for a player).

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04-19-2013, 07:10 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
If a player has more goals scored against him while he on the ice than for, is his team winning many games?

In fantasy hockey pure scoring counts for everything , in real hockey the prevention of goals is half of the equation.

This is Dats, an elite scorer who is also elite defensively we are talking about here, not Bob Gainey (who is also over rated when compared to a guy like Craig Ramsey IMO, being part of a dynasty can do that for a player).
I've said it before and I'll say it again: +/- is the most meaningless stat in hockey. YOU are the only poster that I've ever seen obsess on +/-. Nobody else even brings it up that I've seen. +/- is just GAA for goaltenders: It's a team stat that tells you absolutely nothing about the individual player.

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04-19-2013, 07:15 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This is Dats, an elite scorer
Funny, last night you were claiming that a player who gets between 30 and 40 goals in a season isn't a goal scoring threat.....Well, Dats routinely gets LESS than 30 goals a season throughout his career. So which is it?

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04-19-2013, 07:54 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Beau Knows View Post
So Lemieux, Gretzky and Yzerman were all very good on ES but Lemieux was much better on the PP than everyone else, good for him, why should that be held against him?
Yzerman scored as well as the other two, but was also considered one of the league's better defensive forwards that season and received Selke votes (as he had the prior season and would many other seasons in his career).

Yzerman was clearly the best ES player in the league; not having the PP scoring support of Gretzky (Nicholls, Robitaille, Duchesne) or Lemieux (Brown, Coffey, Quinn) doesn't make him less of a player.

I think it's possible that giving the Hart to Gretzky over Lemieux was the media "making up" for Gretzky having not won the previous year when he was clearly the best player and deserving MVP, but missed 16 games. Had the Gretzky trade not occurred, and Gretzky scored the 100 points Jimmy Carson did in while Carson scored Gretzky's 168 in LA, Carson finishes a distant third for the Hart behind Lemieux and Yzerman; if he even beats Nicholls and his 70-80-150.

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04-19-2013, 07:59 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Funny, last night you were claiming that a player who gets between 30 and 40 goals in a season isn't a goal scoring threat.....Well, Dats routinely gets LESS than 30 goals a season throughout his career. So which is it?
Dats isn't really a goal scorer of note.

30 goals scored also depends on the seasonal context, not every 30 goal season is the same.

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04-19-2013, 08:12 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yzerman scored as well as the other two, but was also considered one of the league's better defensive forwards that season and received Selke votes (as he had the prior season and would many other seasons in his career).

Yzerman was clearly the best ES player in the league; not having the PP scoring support of Gretzky (Nicholls, Robitaille, Duchesne) or Lemieux (Brown, Coffey, Quinn) doesn't make him less of a player.

I think it's possible that giving the Hart to Gretzky over Lemieux was the media "making up" for Gretzky having not won the previous year when he was clearly the best player and deserving MVP, but missed 16 games. Had the Gretzky trade not occurred, and Gretzky scored the 100 points Jimmy Carson did in while Carson scored Gretzky's 168 in LA, Carson finishes a distant third for the Hart behind Lemieux and Yzerman; if he even beats Nicholls and his 70-80-150.
While I agree with you Eva, the Hart is generally given to the player with the most points, this will probably be even more so in the future with the Selke around but only time will tell.

I think a pretty good argument can be made for all 3 players for the hart in 89, to pick any of the 3 as a lock for the hart would be ignoring the other 2 players impact IMO.

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04-19-2013, 08:27 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
From 28 on I would take Dats and here is why.

For his 3 seasons age 28.29 and 30 his ESGF/ESGA ratio is 1.84

Wayne's is 1.16

For Dats age 31,32,33 his 3 year average is 1.42

Wayne's is 0.93

There is no doubt as to which player I would want out on the ice after the age of 28 and it's Dats.
Need more context.
The r-on/R-off needs to be included so we can examine how much of that is team based and how much of a difference said player is to his team average.

Dats age 28 produced 55ES, 29PP, 3SH +36
Gretzky age 28 produced 101ES, 52PP, 15SH +15

Dats age 29 produced 56ES, 40PP, 1SH +41
Gretzky age 29 produced 96ES, 40PP, 6SH +8

Dats age 30 produced 59ES, 36PP, 2SH +34
Gretzky age 30 produced 103ES, 59PP, 1SH +30

At the 28 year level, Gretzky more than makes up for any ES advantage Dats has by dominating him in special teams.

At the 29 year level, this is the only year Dats looks better than Gretzky statwise. This is also the year that Gretzky plays injured quite often while trying to "sell" the game in the Southern markets.

At the 30 year level, this is once again Gretzky's show. He not only matches Dats' ES ratio but also dominates him in on the special teams front once again.


Either way, at the end of the day, scoring goals gets you wins.
Preventing goals gets you shootouts.
I know which one is more important in the playoff's

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04-19-2013, 08:29 PM
  #241
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A) In 1991, at age 30, Wayne Gretzky had a better season than Pavel Datsyuk has ever had, will ever have, or could dream of having.

B) R-on/off can be useful, but for everyone who says "let's not be too hard on Messier, he was competing with Gretzky," the inverse is true as well. Outscoring the Messier/Anderson line, or the Nicholls/Robitaille/Taylor line by a little is better than outscoring a Johan Franzen line by a lot.

Also let's not be suckers for +/-. Unless you want to say that Marty McSorley (+48) was better than Gretzky (+30) in 1991. Goals-Assists-Points are much better numbers to look at than Total Goals For.

C) For all the talk of Yzerman having a 90 point, 2nd team AS LW as a regular partner, perhaps we should remember that the Kings played their best ES players on the 2nd (non-Gretzky) line (Robitaille-Nicholls-Taylor). At ES, 88-89 Gretzky did play occasionally with Robitaille and Nicholls, but was mostly used on various line combos like Krushelnyski-Gretzky-Allison, with Tonelli, Carpenter, Liba and Kasper tossed in as well. The best two regular linemates were at 64 and 62 points.

But I'm sure when Gretzky scored 9 points on 11 Kings goals against the Flames in the Smythe Finals, everyone was clamoring for Ftorek to play Ron Duguay instead of that unreliable Gretzky...

D) Lemieux scoring on the powerplay is a good thing. But he didn't score 79 PP points because he scored at some inhuman rate, he got there because of the Pens high number of PPO. So if his lead over Gretzky and Yzerman is mostly because of a higher number of penalties in Pens games, I don't know how that makes Lemieux more valuable.

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04-19-2013, 08:37 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
While I agree with you Eva, the Hart is generally given to the player with the most points, this will probably be even more so in the future with the Selke around but only time will tell.

I think a pretty good argument can be made for all 3 players for the hart in 89, to pick any of the 3 as a lock for the hart would be ignoring the other 2 players impact IMO.
I think the 1989 Hart should have gone to Yzerman, with Lemieux a deserving choice as well. Gretzky definitely had an impact, but he scored at a level well below any of his prime Edmonton seasons, with a teammate who had a higher scoring season than anyone he would play with in any other season - despite only playing on the PP with Gretzky rather than being his winger as Kurri was.

In fact, Gretzky never even played with a player who scored that well in his career in any other season; the closest was when he was teammates with Pat LaFontaine (career high: 148) on the Rangers when both were near the end.

Gretzky played 78 games compared to his 64 from the year prior. The difference in production? In that 14GP difference, he added 14-5-19.

Meanwhile, second-line center Bernie Nicholls had played 65 games in 87-88, and scored 32-46-78. This puts him on pace for about 100 points, which is where he generally was scoring. In 88-89, he played 79 games - also a 14-game increase. Nicholls added 38 goals and 34 assists for 72 points in that 14-game difference.

Luc Robitaille's scoring numbers decreased.

Gretzky in 88-89 compared to Jimmy Carson in 87-88 is more interesting; Carson played 80 and scored 55-52-107. So in two fewer games, Gretzky had one fewer goal and 62 more assists.

So we can see that Gretzky>Carson was certainly a huge jump. But not as much of a jump as Nicholls>Nicholls. And while the argument is made that Gretzky was responsible for Nicholls' season, it must be remembered that he played on a separate line at even strength and still finished fourth in the league in even strength scoring. Playing with Gretzky on the PP allowed him to score a ridiculous number of goals, but he was a very good player in his own right and his health and improved play was a significant part of the Kings' turnaround.

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04-19-2013, 08:41 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I think the 1989 Hart should have gone to Yzerman, with Lemieux a deserving choice as well. Gretzky definitely had an impact, but he scored at a level well below any of his prime Edmonton seasons, with a teammate who had a higher scoring season than anyone he would play with in any other season - despite only playing on the PP with Gretzky rather than being his winger as Kurri was.

In fact, Gretzky never even played with a player who scored that well in his career in any other season; the closest was when he was teammates with Pat LaFontaine (career high: 148) on the Rangers when both were near the end.

Gretzky played 78 games compared to his 64 from the year prior. The difference in production? In that 14GP difference, he added 14-5-19.

Meanwhile, second-line center Bernie Nicholls had played 65 games in 87-88, and scored 32-46-78. This puts him on pace for about 100 points, which is where he generally was scoring. In 88-89, he played 79 games - also a 14-game increase. Nicholls added 38 goals and 34 assists for 72 points in that 14-game difference.

Luc Robitaille's scoring numbers decreased.

Gretzky in 88-89 compared to Jimmy Carson in 87-88 is more interesting; Carson played 80 and scored 55-52-107. So in two fewer games, Gretzky had one fewer goal and 62 more assists.

So we can see that Gretzky>Carson was certainly a huge jump. But not as much of a jump as Nicholls>Nicholls. And while the argument is made that Gretzky was responsible for Nicholls' season, it must be remembered that he played on a separate line at even strength and still finished fourth in the league in even strength scoring. Playing with Gretzky on the PP allowed him to score a ridiculous number of goals, but he was a very good player in his own right and his health and improved play was a significant part of the Kings' turnaround.

And how much more room and secondary matchups did Nicholls face at Even Strength when every team was focused on Gretzky's line?

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04-19-2013, 08:53 PM
  #244
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And how much more room and secondary matchups did Nicholls face at Even Strength when every team was focused on Gretzky's line?
I've mentioned that factor myself in the past, but it's still only an 18 point gap between the two.

It's not even close to the 79 points from Yzerman to Oates, or the 105 points from Lemieux to Quinn.

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04-19-2013, 08:54 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
From 28 on I would take Dats and here is why.

For his 3 seasons age 28.29 and 30 his ESGF/ESGA ratio is 1.84

Wayne's is 1.16

For Dats age 31,32,33 his 3 year average is 1.42

Wayne's is 0.93

There is no doubt as to which player I would want out on the ice after the age of 28 and it's Dats.
Because Gretzky's LA King linemates were as defensively sound as Datsyuk's Detroit Red Wings linemates? You're acting like one player is entirely in control of his plus-minus.

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04-19-2013, 08:55 PM
  #246
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Not even reading the thread, just answering the header. NO, not overrated in any way.

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04-19-2013, 09:16 PM
  #247
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Hilarious that some people think Lemieux scored all his points on the PP and didn't do much else. The guy is 4th all time in short handed goals too. He was awesome on the PK.

For all the kiddies that never saw him and are talking out of their ass, here's a sweet SH goal by Lemieux:


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04-19-2013, 09:34 PM
  #248
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The only time Lemiuex is over-rated is when someone tries to claim he was better then Gretzky. He simply wasn't BUT he was better then anyone else playing at the time.

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04-19-2013, 10:05 PM
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Need more context.
The r-on/R-off needs to be included so we can examine how much of that is team based and how much of a difference said player is to his team average.

Dats age 28 produced 55ES, 29PP, 3SH +36
Gretzky age 28 produced 101ES, 52PP, 15SH +15

Dats age 29 produced 56ES, 40PP, 1SH +41
Gretzky age 29 produced 96ES, 40PP, 6SH +8

Dats age 30 produced 59ES, 36PP, 2SH +34
Gretzky age 30 produced 103ES, 59PP, 1SH +30

At the 28 year level, Gretzky more than makes up for any ES advantage Dats has by dominating him in special teams.

At the 29 year level, this is the only year Dats looks better than Gretzky statwise.

At the 30 year level, this is once again Gretzky's show. He not only matches Dats' ES ratio but also dominates him in on the special teams front once again.


Either way, at the end of the day, scoring goals gets you wins.
Preventing goals gets you shootouts.
I don't have the R-on and R-off numbers for both guys, although we do know that Dats is often lined up against the best offensive line of the opposition teams.

If you want to look at all raw stats, then you also need to adjust them for the era, or context of the league they were scored in as well.

In this case Dats actually has his points totals going up in 5 of the 6 years (from 1 to 8 points more) and Wayne has a substantial decrease in all 6 (from 11-29 points per season) .

Mario also suffers from the same fate as being less than average defensively in his career.

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04-19-2013, 10:10 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because Gretzky's LA King linemates were as defensively sound as Datsyuk's Detroit Red Wings linemates? You're acting like one player is entirely in control of his plus-minus.
No one player is in total control of his plus/minus or ESGF/ESGA ratio but come on they do have more control than you are letting on here as well.

Overpass even adjusts it for team situation and Wayne comes out lower than expected overall, much of it due to his decline after a 8-10 year prime (to paraphrase him)

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