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Carkner, Boulton, Martin, & C.MAC

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:57 PM
  #26
Poliz24
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Since the discussion is very carkner heavy, I will point out that this thread had Colin McDonald in it's title. CMAC, has been playing TOUGH on the 4th Line and SCORING! So if CMAC can do it, doesn't mean Carnker can't either, maybe not score as much as CMAC but chip in with an assist here and there. Without CMAC doing a really good job of FORCHECKING which requires TOUGHNESS, maybe we aren't as successful on that 4th line. Oh my goodness, a tough guy who can score??? Yes, I do think it's possible for that to still to occur. Let's remember that's what hockey was before the European system changed how the game was played.

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04-19-2013, 03:02 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever82 View Post
Oh Please, Matt Martin and Colin Mcdonald is not enough when you play a gooned up team like the leafs or Bruins.
Matt Martin and Colin McDonald who by the way only has 1 FIGHT all year is not going to cut it against teams like the Bruins and the Leafs.
Toronto dresses 3 damn HW fighters every single night. The dress HW goons Orr and Frazer Mclaren on the 4th line every night along with having HW fighter Mark Fraser on d. Matt Martin and Colin Mcdonald can not match up with those big time HW fighting goons who run and bully teams all year.
Anyone complaining about Carnker or Boulton being in the lineup against a team like the leafs is absurd. When the leafs are dressing 3 HW fighters and dirt bags like dion you need Carnker and Blots to even things out. Sorry, Matt Martin can not handle those types of big boys. Please with Colin Macdonald, the guy has 1 damn fight on the who year.

Something to your point but....your talking not only apples and oranges.everyones adding grapes.

Bolton does what he does...good for him..head like a cement block.can throw em
Carkner does what he does..and can clear the net... good for him..decent scrapper

Martin pretty well does it all...No better hitter..fights real good..can play real well..causes havoc on the ice with his presence..has stood right in with the larger heavys..Paros etc..But is only 23...soon will be 230 lb'er no one can deal with.

Mcd...Hits some...not a fighter...plays well..no one is worried about his on ice presence. good character player tho..but no where the toughness of the top three..in fact take the top three out of the lineup...and the hitting will evaporate with no big brothers around, I watched him in the AHL....Martin many a night stood alone..thats tough


Bolton Carkner...Apples

Martin ...Oranges

Mcd.....Grapes
in fact add C.C....another big heart but ...a grape

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04-19-2013, 03:06 PM
  #28
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I agree with much of what's being said. Carkner directly put himself in the hole with a terrible play (non-play?) on Lupul and then an irresponsible penalty that lead to a goal. It'll be interesting to see how he's used in the remaining games.

I think having Martin and Boulton in the line-up against physical teams is enough. They're two tough ****ers and Boulton is less prone to hurt us compared to a slow and less than sharp defenseman.

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04-19-2013, 03:08 PM
  #29
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Carkner is terrible and should be benched for Marty or when Strait comes back.

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Old
04-19-2013, 05:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
The fights happened almost 8 minutes into the game.

At that time the Islanders were out-shooting Toronto 7-2.

The two Toronto shots were courtesy of Matt Carkner getting beat twice, once for a goal and once forcing him to take a penalty which led to the second goal.

The play was in Toronto's end of the ice for most of those first 8 minutes or the leafs were chasing the puck in the neutral zone, unable to to slow down the Islanders attacking zone entries.

What turned the momentum was not the fights, the Islanders maintained their pressure and discovered that Reimer has a weak blocker side, and they exposed it pretty bad from there on out. Reimer made about 4 highlight reel saves before the goons tried to earn their paycheck.



Yes, speed helps, you are severely hampered by slow footspeed at the NHL level today, no matter what your position or role is on the team is. It can be overcome if you are a heady player that has proper gaps and positioning. Carkner shows no evidence of this either and the Lupul goal is exhibit A. There are countless other examples.



I can have a real conversation, I just explained to you why I feel my opinion is correct, I even used facts. All I got in response from you to my question as to why you think disliking wastes of space like Carkner and Boulton = Me thinking the games is strictly skating and scoring. It's a mighty leap you made and I'm waiting for further details. All I have gotten from you so far is that I 'Have No Clue' and am 'Too much into myself'. Neither are convincing arguments.

Listen if you cant understand why Boulton and Carnker were in last night I dont even know what to say anymore.
I guess some on here like you think this is a video game like NHL 13 where you put all skilled guys in the line-up. Thats not reality! Anyone who has ever played the game knows full well how much intimidation plays in any form of hockey.
Colton Orr, Frazer McLaren and Mark Fraser are HW fighters who bully teams and intimidate teams year long. You can not go into a game like that in Torontos building without players to counter The Orrs,Mclarens,Frasers , you just cant!

Intimidation plays a huge role in this sport and anyone who disagrees has never stepped onto the ice before.

There is a reason why BOTH CARNKER AND BOULTON WERE IN THE LINEUP LAST NIGHT!. If you cant understand the intimidation part of this sport I now see why you have the opinion you have.

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04-19-2013, 05:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Oleg4Prez View Post
Carkner is terrible and should be benched for Marty or when Strait comes back.
You would not be saying that if one of the leafs 3 goons started smashing our skill guys last night with no one to defend them.

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04-19-2013, 05:34 PM
  #32
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Listen if you cant understand why Boulton and Carnker were in last night I dont even know what to say anymore.
I guess some on here like you think this is a video game like NHL 13 where you put all skilled guys in the line-up. Thats not reality! Anyone who has ever played the game knows full well how much intimidation plays in any form of hockey.
Colton Orr, Frazer McLaren and Mark Fraser are HW fighters who bully teams and intimidate teams year long. You can not go into a game like that in Torontos building without players to counter The Orrs,Mclarens,Frasers , you just cant!

Intimidation plays a huge role in this sport and anyone who disagrees has never stepped onto the ice before.

There is a reason why BOTH CARNKER AND BOULTON WERE IN THE LINEUP LAST NIGHT!. If you cant understand the intimidation part of this sport I now see why you have the opinion you have.
I get why they put them in. I think it is simply hard to have some of those player's warts stuck in their face.

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04-19-2013, 05:49 PM
  #33
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It is clear by this thread and the many others like it (see any Michael Haley thread) that there are those here that like physical but less skilled players like Carkner and Boulton and those who do not. It would be wonderful to find another Martin or a Lucic or a Phaneuf but these players do not grow on trees. I think Mayfield, Pedan, and possibly Persson at the bridge can bring more toughness with more skill. But I am a firm believer that a Boulton or Carkner are needed against some teams and especially against those teams when you are on the road.(I also think Cappy has dressing Boulton in the right games.)

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04-19-2013, 07:39 PM
  #34
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...but what does he know.

"I really thought those two fights got us going," Tavares said. "[Carkner and Boulton] made big sacrifices for us and really woke us up and got us going. I think we believed in ourselves going into the game and to start the way we did was disappointing, but we recovered and those two guys fighting really got us going. It changed the momentum of the game for us."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/recap.htm?id=...d=nhl:topheads

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04-19-2013, 07:43 PM
  #35
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One more thing. I said this last year in reference to, gasp, Trevor Gillies. I had heard and quoted at the time interviews with Tavares and others who thanked Gillies and praised the tough, but VITAL, role he played. Well, guys on this site, who know better, disagreed. I have followed hockey for 35+ years. I know the sport. However, I have never played professionally. I am fan. The guys who play the sport know it better than us. We have opinions; they have facts.

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04-19-2013, 07:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever82 View Post
To be fair, I'll agree. Carnker looked Awful on the first goal, i'll admit that, but overall he has played a pretty solid game all year.
He's been great at clearing guys out in front of the net and being that tough nasty big mean dman we have all wanted for years now. Carkner may not be the fastest skater, or most skilled but he brings an element to this team that no one else can. Look no past the end of the Philly game where Harttnal tried to get rough at the end of the game and Carkner came over and you could see the fear in Harttnals face.

Do you realize Carnker is not a finess defender? It should not come as a suprise he's going to look off sometimes. He is here to provide toughness on our blue line, and protection as well as play a sound stay at home game who for the most part has player pretty decent all year.

Who cares if Boulton played 13 games, he was not in the lineup to score goals, if you ever played the game before you would know that.
I don't think we're as far apart as you may think. I love tough players. I love fights. We've been sorely lacking in the size/grit/toughness dept. for a few years now. My point is while Carkner and Boulton address those concerns their deficiencies in other areas do not make up for whatever toughness they bring. I'll take Martinek over Carkner and Joensuu over Boulton any day. Toronto does have some tough guys but they also have a lot of speedy forwards and a slow defender like Carkner will have his problems with teams like that as shown last night.

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04-19-2013, 07:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by frankieboy View Post
One more thing. I said this last year in reference to, gasp, Trevor Gillies. I had heard and quoted at the time interviews with Tavares and others who thanked Gillies and praised the tough, but VITAL, role he played. Well, guys on this site, who know better, disagreed. I have followed hockey for 35+ years. I know the sport. However, I have never played professionally. I am fan. The guys who play the sport know it better than us. We have opinions; they have facts.
Because that's what you're supposed to say when asked about Trevor Gillies role. Lets just say that JT thought that Gillies was a waste of space. Would he ever admit it!? Heck no.


Goons are a vestige of way back when, when goons could literally knock JT out of the game if they pleased. You haven't been able to do that for ages. I don't want to get into this argument again, so I won't say more. But I just want it to be known, I am patently against goonery (Boulton), but I appreciate guys who play physical (physical as in actual physical play and not fisticuffs), guys like Martin, CMac.

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04-19-2013, 08:02 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by frankieboy View Post
...but what does he know.

"I really thought those two fights got us going," Tavares said. "[Carkner and Boulton] made big sacrifices for us and really woke us up and got us going. I think we believed in ourselves going into the game and to start the way we did was disappointing, but we recovered and those two guys fighting really got us going. It changed the momentum of the game for us."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/recap.htm?id=...d=nhl:topheads
Finally someone who actually gets it even though you never played the game.
Too many on this site act as if this is NHL 2013 the video game. These posters are clueless and uninformed when it comes to this topic.

Try telling that to all the know it all's on this site. They are so ignorant when it comes to this topic it actually is funny.
Not only did Tavares come out and say the fights changed the momentum of the game but Brad Boyes, Jack Capauno said the same thing! Butchie also was praising the fights by Boulton and Carnker at the post fight show saying those guys changed the momentum of the game.
The players WHO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME FOR A LIVING disagree with you anti-tough guy crew.
I'll take the opinions of our players,Coaches and guys who have actuall played the game before before I listen to some know it all poster that thinks you win by building a team like a video game.

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04-19-2013, 08:09 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever82 View Post
Finally someone who actually gets it even though you never played the game.
Too many on this site act as if this is NHL 2013 the video game. These posters are clueless and uninformed when it comes to this topic.

Try telling that to all the know it all's on this site. They are so ignorant when it comes to this topic it actually is funny.
Not only did Tavares come out and say the fights changed the momentum of the game but Brad Boyes, Jack Capauno said the same thing! Butchie also was praising the fights by Boulton and Carnker at the post fight show saying those guys changed the momentum of the game.
The players WHO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME FOR A LIVING disagree with you anti-tough guy crew.
I'll take the opinions of our players,Coaches and guys who have actuall played the game before before I listen to some know it all poster that thinks you win by building a team like a video game.
There will always be fans who can't stand the physical stuff. They are still fans - just remember that. Then there are the rest of us who love all sides of the sport. I don't really care for the heavy weight staged fights... But a middle weight bout between two guys who actually have skill, or when one of the gutless pukes who tries to injure players get their butts handed to them... yeah, I love to see it.

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04-19-2013, 08:13 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Franco View Post
I don't think we're as far apart as you may think. I love tough players. I love fights. We've been sorely lacking in the size/grit/toughness dept. for a few years now. My point is while Carkner and Boulton address those concerns their deficiencies in other areas do not make up for whatever toughness they bring. I'll take Martinek over Carkner and Joensuu over Boulton any day. Toronto does have some tough guys but they also have a lot of speedy forwards and a slow defender like Carkner will have his problems with teams like that as shown last night.
I agree Carnker and Boulton dont need to be dressed every night but when you have a team like Toronto who is dressing 2 HW goons on the 4th line and a HW goon on defence it's games like this where these guys need to be in the line-up.

Against teams like Caps ect that pose no threat goon wise then I agree those guys should be sitting in those games. I just feel considering who Toronto was dressing in their home building I just think the Isles made the right move last night.

Orr,Fraser and Mclaren were real quiet last night, I dont thik thats by chance. They knew if they start getting out of hand there are a couple of guys they are going to have to deal with on the other side.

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04-19-2013, 08:26 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever82 View Post
I guess some on here like you think this is a video game like NHL 13 where you put all skilled guys in the line-up. Thats not reality! Anyone who has ever played the game knows full well how much intimidation plays in any form of hockey.
Is anyone really saying that? I haven't read the thread word for word, but it seems as though the general consensus is that it's fine to have physical, tough players that are willing to stand up for their teammates, but in an ideal world, they'd like them to be able to play a little hockey too.

I don't think that's an unreasonable stance to take. Relax a sec and stop burning down straw men.

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04-19-2013, 08:28 PM
  #42
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Because that's what you're supposed to say when asked about Trevor Gillies role. Lets just say that JT thought that Gillies was a waste of space. Would he ever admit it!? Heck no.


Goons are a vestige of way back when, when goons could literally knock JT out of the game if they pleased. You haven't been able to do that for ages. I don't want to get into this argument again, so I won't say more. But I just want it to be known, I am patently against goonery (Boulton), but I appreciate guys who play physical (physical as in actual physical play and not fisticuffs), guys like Martin, CMac.

LOL, that took long! I knew it would not take long before we saw the "he is supposed to say that" crap. I guess that was the expected responce from the Anti toughness posters trying to discredic JT statements by saying "thats whats he's supposed to do"

From Jonny T. "I really thought those two fights got us going," Tavares said. "[Carkner and Boulton] made big sacrifices for us and really woke us up and got us going. I think we believed in ourselves going into the game and to start the way we did was disappointing, but we recovered and those two guys fighting really got us going. It changed the momentum of the game for us."

Brad Boyes also said it changed the momentum of the game along with Jack Capuano! Butch also let it be known the importance Boulton and Carnkers fights last night, butch also said it changed the game.


Again, I will take those opinions who have ACTUALLY played the game over some arm chair NHL 2013 video game poster who is clueless on the topic. If you ever stepped foot on the ice in competitive Hockey you would understand these guys are needed for certin games.

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04-19-2013, 08:33 PM
  #43
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Because that's what you're supposed to say when asked about Trevor Gillies role. Lets just say that JT thought that Gillies was a waste of space. Would he ever admit it!? Heck no.


Goons are a vestige of way back when, when goons could literally knock JT out of the game if they pleased. You haven't been able to do that for ages. I don't want to get into this argument again, so I won't say more. But I just want it to be known, I am patently against goonery (Boulton), but I appreciate guys who play physical (physical as in actual physical play and not fisticuffs), guys like Martin, CMac.
I did not hear the way the interview went. Neither did you. You choose to think that he was asked, "what impact did the two fights have on the game?" In other words, he was prompted and felt he HAD to say something nice. Maybe it went that way...or maybe not. Regardless, he did not feel the need to point out Aucoin's impact and effort. If he had, would you have figured he said it because he felt he had to? I bet he was asked, "what was the turning point in the game?" As I said, I did not hear the interview. BUT, I DID hear several last year where guys brought up Gillies on their own saying what a valuable role he plays on the team. They were not prompted, at least in the interviews I recall. Tavares was one of the interviewees, Martin was another, and so was Jurcina.

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04-19-2013, 09:47 PM
  #44
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I did not hear the way the interview went. Neither did you. You choose to think that he was asked, "what impact did the two fights have on the game?" In other words, he was prompted and felt he HAD to say something nice. Maybe it went that way...or maybe not. Regardless, he did not feel the need to point out Aucoin's impact and effort. If he had, would you have figured he said it because he felt he had to? I bet he was asked, "what was the turning point in the game?" As I said, I did not hear the interview. BUT, I DID hear several last year where guys brought up Gillies on their own saying what a valuable role he plays on the team. They were not prompted, at least in the interviews I recall. Tavares was one of the interviewees, Martin was another, and so was Jurcina.
They're hockey professional athletes, and the people asking the questions are professional sportswriters. Sportswriters already have their story written, they know what quotes they want, and they know how to get them! Sportswriters can be very, very, very obvious as to what they want the answer to be. They'll ask the question, and then lead them to an answer. Even if they don't, athletes know what sportswriters want. They'll give them what they want every single time because they'll be done quicker if they do.

In addition to this, the goon schtick has been a part of hockey cliche for ages and ages. Its akin to "gotta be smart with the puck." Athletes just spout this stuff, regardless of whether or not it is true, regardless of whether or not they are prompted (although they are).

Just listen to the Okposo interview on islanders.tv.

This isn't even my anti-goon rant. This is my sport interviews are useless 99.999% of the time for informational purposes rant.

I bet you can find great quotes about Roloson from every player in our lockerroom his last year here. You'll find all sorts of leader crap, and great lockerroom influence ********. Guess what? Second he gets out of here, you have an actual moment of truth from a guy like Parenteau and you find out he wasn't liked. Its all ********, it always has been, and it always will be.

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04-20-2013, 10:24 AM
  #45
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Other than the first 5-6 minutes, Carkner played a fine game for a #6. Keep deluding yourselves into thinking the presence of Carkner/Boulton had nothing to do with that win though. God willing the Islanders make the playoffs, you will understand why those guys are needed. Maybe then, you will understand why serious teams like Ottawa and NJ employed Carkner/Boulton in the recent past. Maybe you will understand why Colton Orr, Frazer McLaren, Zenon Konopka, Chris Neil, Tanner Glass, Deryk Engelland etc...etc....etc....etc... still have jobs in the NHL.

You need these guys in the playoffs, especially in the East. You know of a feared enforcer that can also play well enough to get decent minutes? They seem rare, and expensive..... and always end up being too important to play that kind of role and waste away in the penalty box.

You guys are unreal

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04-20-2013, 10:28 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
They're hockey professional athletes, and the people asking the questions are professional sportswriters. Sportswriters already have their story written, they know what quotes they want, and they know how to get them! Sportswriters can be very, very, very obvious as to what they want the answer to be. They'll ask the question, and then lead them to an answer. Even if they don't, athletes know what sportswriters want. They'll give them what they want every single time because they'll be done quicker if they do.

In addition to this, the goon schtick has been a part of hockey cliche for ages and ages. Its akin to "gotta be smart with the puck." Athletes just spout this stuff, regardless of whether or not it is true, regardless of whether or not they are prompted (although they are).

Just listen to the Okposo interview on islanders.tv.

This isn't even my anti-goon rant. This is my sport interviews are useless 99.999% of the time for informational purposes rant.

I bet you can find great quotes about Roloson from every player in our lockerroom his last year here. You'll find all sorts of leader crap, and great lockerroom influence ********. Guess what? Second he gets out of here, you have an actual moment of truth from a guy like Parenteau and you find out he wasn't liked. Its all ********, it always has been, and it always will be.
For the life of me, I'm trying to remember when anyone spoke out about Konopka, Gillies, Haley, Godard etc....

I do remember when we didn't have a single guy on the roster like that, and the team played like a bunch of scared mice. They also got their ***** handed to them physically on a nightly basis.

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04-20-2013, 04:54 PM
  #47
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For the life of me, I'm trying to remember when anyone spoke out about Konopka, Gillies, Haley, Godard etc....

I do remember when we didn't have a single guy on the roster like that, and the team played like a bunch of scared mice. They also got their ***** handed to them physically on a nightly basis.
Weird how Bolton and carkner were scratched in essentially a playoff game a couple of nights after they supposedly won the game a few nights ago. And against a physical team like Winnipeg too. Weird, guess cappy wasn't as impressed as some on the boards ( thankfully). Worked out just fine too, very strange. I did notice major contributions from some physical players with actual hockey skills like martin and Cmac. That just adds to the point that physical players that can actually play NHL hockey are needed, not useless scrubs that are liabilities but throw a few punches. But of course that will fall on deaf ears with so many, I mean after all if you don't like carkner and Bolton you don't like physical hockey and prefer figure skating and clearly never played hockey before. Lol whatever.

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04-20-2013, 05:13 PM
  #48
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How can Carkner only be a goon when he has 1-2 fights this yr? He does some good things. The fact that he can play and fight the HW is a great combination.

Like it or not, in contact Sports, some teams bully and you need guys who can stand up to the bullies or guys like Okposo who dont normally get mixed up in it, have to. Mistake not playing Carkner tonight. Strait was no better and wpg ran us all over the ice.

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04-20-2013, 05:58 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
Weird how Bolton and carkner were scratched in essentially a playoff game a couple of nights after they supposedly won the game a few nights ago. And against a physical team like Winnipeg too. Weird, guess cappy wasn't as impressed as some on the boards ( thankfully). Worked out just fine too, very strange. I did notice major contributions from some physical players with actual hockey skills like martin and Cmac. That just adds to the point that physical players that can actually play NHL hockey are needed, not useless scrubs that are liabilities but throw a few punches. But of course that will fall on deaf ears with so many, I mean after all if you don't like carkner and Bolton you don't like physical hockey and prefer figure skating and clearly never played hockey before. Lol whatever.
Carkner is a liability too many times and he sits because of that on occasion. I'll admit I thought he would be better when we picked him up, and the team is so starved for size that we do need him, but I hope they will have better alternatives in the NEAR future.

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04-20-2013, 06:32 PM
  #50
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For people saying we dont need goons like boulton or carkner how are they considered goons? They can skate they can play hockey but not like you top guys. Do either of them go out and two hand anyone or elbow, hit people from behind, sucker punch, knee i could go on. Guys like cooke, avery for example are cheap shot artists and until that is completely out of the game you will always see guys like Boulton and Carkner. The typical goon is out of the game now like grimson, tony twist, Cox. Now in todays NHL you have to be able to play the game to stay in the game. I think as well as the teams that keep signing Boulton and Carkner as well guys like Orr, Westgarth and so on agree. IF people dont think guys like this are needed and skilled teams dont need guys like this go watch the Leafs sens game where the leafs player in a fight just head butted the sens guy.

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