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1948 Czechoslovakian Tour of the USSR

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04-10-2013, 02:10 PM
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Canadiens1958
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1948 Czechoslovakian Tour of the USSR

From the Montreal Gazette, a small glimpse of the 1948 Czechoslovakian Prague visit to the USSR:

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=...g=3107%2C79469

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04-10-2013, 03:53 PM
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If you don't mind google translate, primary infos here::

http://statforum.5-games.ru/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=717

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04-11-2013, 03:11 AM
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That means, we created the big Red Machine.

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04-11-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by alko View Post
That means, we created the big Red Machine.
No doubt, and Canada created you. Here in Sweden we had a couple of north american players as well as coaches but they must not have been as good as Buchna or whatever your guy was called. Took us at least to the seventies before we could compete for real.

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04-11-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
From the Montreal Gazette, a small glimpse of the 1948 Czechoslovakian Prague visit to the USSR:

http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=...g=3107%2C79469
Thanks! I wasn't aware of contemporary coverage in Canada.

It was the first test of the Soviet hockey program against the outside world. Chernyshev, Tarasov, Bobrov were all there. The results suggest the Soviets had already developed a good grip on the basics of the game minus the body checking. LTC Praha would surely have won all three against the Soviet Nationals/Moscow Selects if hitting was allowed, but it's still surprising that they weren't able to win them anyway. We're talking about one of the best club teams in Europe with a star player (Vladimír Zábrodský) who was scouted and sought after by the New York Rangers. I think it shows what a solid foundament the Soviets had right from the beginning in their bandy/"hockey with the ball" background. The popular notion that they started from zero in 1946 seems like hyperbole.

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Here in Sweden we had a couple of north american players as well as coaches but they must not have been as good as Buchna or whatever your guy was called. Took us at least to the seventies before we could compete for real.
70s? Sweden was not too far behind Czechoslovakia for most of the 50s and 60s, finished ahead in several World Championships.

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04-11-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Buchna or whatever your guy was called
Mike Buckna

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04-11-2013, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
No doubt, and Canada created you. Here in Sweden we had a couple of north american players as well as coaches but they must not have been as good as Buchna or whatever your guy was called. Took us at least to the seventies before we could compete for real.
Against the best, probably even a while into the 80's.


Last edited by Ola: 04-11-2013 at 08:31 AM.
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04-12-2013, 09:05 AM
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70s? Sweden was not too far behind Czechoslovakia for most of the 50s and 60s, finished ahead in several World Championships.
Nah. Our first three gold medals were a joke where politics did so that better teams were not present. We probably did get something to say against the czechs when some of them died in a plane crash and others got thrown into jail by some maniac in government, but we could not compete with the russians or Canadas amateurs and then some professionals.

We were pretty competative in the seventies, but unfortunately we more than anyone lost guys the the NHL and WHA so we did not often get the chance to show it. I believe that if we had all our best on a yearly basis we could beat the russians and the czechs every now and then for the gold.

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04-12-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
We probably did get something to say against the czechs when some of them died in a plane crash and others got thrown into jail by some maniac in government, but we could not compete with the russians or Canadas amateurs and then some professionals.
Sweden finished ahead of Czechoslovakia in 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969, 1970 and 1973. By that time Czechoslovakia had long recovered from the 1949 crackdown. The Soviets and the Canadian Pros were another league of course, but Sweden was able to compete with the Czechoslovaks and the Canadian amateurs (National Team) a bit earlier than the 1970s.

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04-18-2013, 08:18 PM
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I guess that's the rink the games were played at. The footage was taken 13 resp. 12 months before the Czechoslovaks were in Moscow. Soviet hockey at a very early stage. What a sight. That penalty box!
And the "boards": at least understandable why they wouldn't want anybody to get hit into THAT kind of thing.




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04-18-2013, 08:39 PM
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Excellent Contribution

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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
I guess that's the rink the games were played at. The footage was taken 13 resp. 12 months before the Czechoslovaks were in Moscow. Soviet hockey at a very early stage. What a sight. That penalty box!
And the "boards": at least understandable why they wouldn't want anybody to get hit into THAT kind of thing.



Excellent contribution.

Examples of the equipment, skating, playing facilities reflect a "work in progress" game. Similar in many ways to early Canadian hockey.

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04-18-2013, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
And the "boards"...
... Wow, just... awesome!. Dasher boards, outdoors, a portable livestock
pen for a penalty box.... brilliant. Thats' hockey. Absolutely. Gotta love it.

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04-18-2013, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
From the middle of this clip (the clip starts weak but gets better and better) to the end there is some exciting, skilled play!! The skating and puck ragging by a couple of those players is impressive. Is that a championship? Which one? What is the cup that was won at the end?

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04-19-2013, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
From the middle of this clip (the clip starts weak but gets better and better) to the end there is some exciting, skilled play!! The skating and puck ragging by a couple of those players is impressive.
Again relativizes the notion that the Soviets started from the scratch in 1946. Their experience in Chokkey s Myachom ("Hockey with the Ball") is not to be underestimated. I guess the same is true for Canada in the 1880s.

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Is that a championship? Which one? What is the cup that was won at the end?
The first ever Soviet Championship in Chokkey s Shaiboi ("Hockey with the Puck") or Kanadskiy Chokkey ("Canadian Hockey"). It was the last and decisive game which earned Dinamo Moscow the domestic Championship Trophy.

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04-19-2013, 05:25 PM
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LTC Praha in action at the 1948 Spengler Cup, 10 months after the trip to Moscow:



They defeated Neuchâtel 18-4, Lausanne 19-3 and Davos 10-0 and thus won the Cup in dominant fashion. The Swiss newscaster calls them "currently the best team of Europe".

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04-19-2013, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
LTC Praha in action at the 1948 Spengler Cup...
Excellent. Love the spectators in the Top Hats, stands & set-up. Interesting the nets werent anchored as well. That ice surface didnt appear to be full sized. As they were playing outdoors and as it was still early days to some extent Im assuming you'd have had some variations as was the case in Canada, the US & elsewhere. In fact here in Canada at the amateur levels before the arena building booms of the 50's, 60's & 70's, you did have some shorter & narrower rinks both indoor but most notably outdoors. Same as Russia.

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04-19-2013, 06:11 PM
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Excellent Contribution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
LTC Praha in action at the 1948 Spengler Cup, 10 months after the trip to Moscow:



They defeated Neuchâtel 18-4, Lausanne 19-3 and Davos 10-0 and thus won the Cup in dominant fashion. The Swiss newscaster calls them "currently the best team of Europe".
Another excellent contribution.

As mentioned by Killion the rink seems smaller than accepted NHL and International dimensions. Also the boards appear to be higher.

When were the various elements standardized in European or International hockey?

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04-19-2013, 07:47 PM
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The IIHF (then still LIHG) tried to standardize the rink size in the 1920s and 1930s. There were several different rulings following one another. Important rulings according to an IIHF Timeline:

1923: 80 x 40 meters (approx. 262.5 x 131.2)
1936: 60 x 30 meters (approx. 196.9 x 98.4)

There were also various rulings setting up maximal sizes, minimal sizes and "ideal" sizes throughout the 20s and 30s. However, a lot of these rulings only lasted a few years before they were reworked and adapted. The picture is very confusing and I don't have an accurate overview. I guess the IIHF was simply forced to adapt to the available rinks in the early days (for some extreme examples, see below).

According to Martin C. Harris, by 1956 the following IIHF regulation was in place.
Maximal rink size: 61 x 30 meters (approx. 200.1 x 98.4)
Minimal rink size: 56 x 26 meters (approx. 183.7 x 85.3)
No reference to an "ideal" size anymore.

Examples for different rinks in early IIHF tournaments:
1913 European Championship (Munich): 40 x 16 meters (approx. 131.2 x 52.5 feet)
1920 Olympic Tournament (Antwerp): 56 x 18 meters (approx. 183.7 x 59.1 feet)
1924 European Championship (Milan): 75 x 45 meters (approx. 246.1 x 147.6 feet)
1931 World Championship (Krynica): 60 x 40 meters (approx. 196.9 x 131.2 feet)

As for the standardization of the boards, I don't know anything about that.

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04-19-2013, 08:29 PM
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Very Similar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
The IIHF (then still LIHG) tried to standardize the rink size in the 1920s and 1930s. There were several different rulings following one another. Important rulings according to an IIHF Timeline:

1923: 80 x 40 meters (approx. 262.5 x 131.2)
1936: 60 x 30 meters (approx. 196.9 x 98.4)

There were also various rulings setting up maximal sizes, minimal sizes and "ideal" sizes throughout the 20s and 30s. However, a lot of these rulings only lasted a few years before they were reworked and adapted. The picture is very confusing and I don't have an accurate overview. I guess the IIHF was simply forced to adapt to the available rinks in the early days (for some extreme examples, see below).

According to Martin C. Harris, by 1956 the following IIHF regulation was in place.
Maximal rink size: 61 x 30 meters (approx. 200.1 x 98.4)
Minimal rink size: 56 x 26 meters (approx. 183.7 x 85.3)
No reference to an "ideal" size anymore.

Examples for different rinks in early IIHF tournaments:
1913 European Championship (Munich): 40 x 16 meters (approx. 131.2 x 52.5 feet)
1920 Olympic Tournament (Antwerp): 56 x 18 meters (approx. 183.7 x 59.1 feet)
1924 European Championship (Milan): 75 x 45 meters (approx. 246.1 x 147.6 feet)
1931 World Championship (Krynica): 60 x 40 meters (approx. 196.9 x 131.2 feet)

As for the standardization of the boards, I don't know anything about that.
The issue of rink dimensions seems to reflect the situation in North America. Three of the NHL teams, Boston, Buffalo, Chicago played on below standard rinks - smaller, into the 1990s. So the changes in International rink norms and standards is not surprising.

At the community, amateur or introductory hockey levels in Canada the prevailing attitude in Canada, especially for outdoor rinks, into the 1970s was that a slightly smaller rink was better than nothing. Very true in the old parts of cities like Montreal in districts that were built before parks and hockey became part of the urban landscape.

The standardized boards started appearing in the 1970s at the community level. Height, quality of the wood, format and placement of the supports, etc was variable. The corners were either diagonal or arced without defined length or curvature. The old outdoor rinks had all possible combinations.

The NHL has on going issues with boards in terms of the related safety issues so that is far from finalized.

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04-19-2013, 08:55 PM
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The IIHF (then still LIHG) tried to standardize the rink size in the 1920s and 1930s....
Isnt that interesting. Fairly wide range, and as surface size would certainly dictate how the game is thought, coached & played tactically & executionally those variables would have in fact helped to hasten the development of skill's through innovation & adaptation. Once rink size & board height including corner curvatures standardized & moved indoors entirely, all of the basic skillsets & hockey crafts would be firmly entrenched within the generations who had played it on "all sorts", passed on down to the generations who followed.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The issue of rink dimensions seems to reflect the situation in North America. Three of the NHL teams, Boston, Buffalo, Chicago played on below standard rinks - smaller, into the 1990s. So the changes in International rink norms and standards is not surprising.
Yes, and of course in playing on a smaller surface you would as the GM & Scouts secure players who's skill sets were suited to the smaller surfaces. Boston in particular in the late 60's through the 70's, Buffalo at various times, and certainly Chicago during their salad days employing imposing, scrappy players to compliment some of the speedsters. If unfamiliar with playing on a smaller surface, for the visting teams it can be intimidating, the angles "odd" from a defensive & certainly goaltenders perspective requiring some modifications. Prudent when playing in such facilities for the first or 15th time intermittently to reacquaint oneself with the surface & board peculiarities pre-game so you dont find yourself sucking air & looking like a complete tool several feet out of position.

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04-24-2013, 06:36 AM
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Some notes on the Czechoslovak visit to Moscow:

-Those in charge of the Soviet hockey program felt that after two domestic championships the time had come for some international experience. They wanted to improve through learning from stronger competition.

-At the same time the Czechoslovak lesson was not supposed to take on a humiliating scale. In fact the Soviet coaches were basically asked to affirm victory, which they of course refused to do. Therefore the first two games (LTC Praha against the club teams VVS MVO and Dinamo) were played behind closed doors. LTC won both matches (10-1 and 11-7).

-The Soviets filmed the Czechoslovaks while training and while playing. They also examined and measured the Czechoslovak equipment (I don't know what parts of equipment we have to think of here: jerseys, trousers, skates, sticks?) and had copies made within a few days.

-After the first two games the authorities wanted to cancel the remaining matches, claiming they already had the Czechoslovaks on tape and the video footage was enough of a lesson. The coaches however argued that playing the Czechoslovaks was more valuable and insisted on the schedule.

-Prominent names who gained their first international experience against LTC Praha: Arkadi Chernyshev, Anatoli Tarasov, Vsevolod Bobrov, Yevgeni Babich.

-Two referees worked each game: One from the Soviet Union and one from Czechoslovakia. In one of the games the LTC players were so dissatisfied with the Russian referee that they left they ice in protest. It took about 15 minutes to convince them to return from the dressing room. The Soviets on the other hand complained that the Czechoslovak referee had wrongfully disallowed a goal.

-Czechoslovak goalkeeper Bohumil Modrý spoke some Russian and gave the Soviets valuable advice. He made a big impression on Anatoli Tarasov who would later say that Modrý "taught us how to play hockey".

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04-24-2013, 10:57 AM
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- ... were played behind closed doors.
- ... had copies made within a few days.
Isnt that fascinating. Behind closed doors. We forget sometimes how important sports supremacy on the ice, field, track or pitch was during the Cold War. That event highly illustrative of the lengths to which the Soviets were willing to go, fully & totally committed to the game of hockey as they were. Its scary-admirable is what that is.... and I'd asked earlier about equipment in the early years, through the 50's & into the 60's. Looks like the Russians did indeed have domestic manufacturers, sticks, skates, gloves etc.

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04-24-2013, 11:45 AM
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Behind closed doors. We forget sometimes how important sports supremacy on the ice, field, track or pitch was during the Cold War.
Absolutely. The Soviets (I'm talking about the authorities, not necessarily the coaches and even less the players) always felt the superiority of their 'system' was at stakes in sports. Stalin was in his own league though. When the Soviet Football Team (led by Vsevolod Bobrov!) failed to win the 1952 Olympics, eliminated by Yugoslavia of all countries (Tito had broken with the USSR in 1948), he did not allow the result to be printed in the Newspapers. So angry was he that the football section of the Red Army Cub (then CDKA, later known as CSKA), which had supplied 4 of the 11 players against Yugoslavia, was dissolved altogether. Childishness in one country, undone once Stalin had died.

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I'd asked earlier about equipment in the early years, through the 50's & into the 60's. Looks like the Russians did indeed have domestic manufacturers, sticks, skates, gloves etc.
Yes, looks like. Still they were glad to get their hands on some Canadian equipment (stick & gloves I seem to remember) once they started paying their visits to North America from 1957 on.

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