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J. Cowen for J. Eberle

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Old
04-19-2013, 08:40 PM
  #126
soothsayer
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
This is pretty entertaining. Especially the part where that one guy said that there is literally no comparison between Eberle and Turris/Conacher, then proceeded to say that Cowen for Eberle is like offering Klefbom for Karlsson. Pretty epic stuff guys, keep it up!
Right, because you're completely innocent of logical fallacies.

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04-19-2013, 08:41 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Why don't you go look up all the 1st round picks in history who have never played more than 82 NHL games and then say that a player who was picked in the first round is equivalent to a first round pick.

GM 1: "Hey, were offering three first round picks for your player"

GM 2: "Really?! That's great, what year(s)?"

GM 1: "Oh, well, its actually Robbie Schremp, Alex Plante, and Riley Nash. Same thing, though"

GM 2: *Click
Challenge accepted seeing as these first round picks would be coming from the Ottawa Senators. Out of 19 Ottawa first round picks going up to 2009 all but three have played in more than 82 NHL games. One of those three is still currently playing on the roster. Ottawa has proven themselves to be a team that drafts and developed very well. One could argue that a first round Ottawa drafted player is generally worth more than your average first round draft pick. This is especially true if Edmonton isn't drafting in the top three.


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04-19-2013, 08:42 PM
  #128
Dick Whitman
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Why don't you go look up all the 1st round picks in history who have never played more than 82 NHL games and then say that a player who was picked in the first round is equivalent to a first round pick.

GM 1: "Hey, were offering three first round picks for your player"

GM 2: "Really?! That's great, what year(s)?"

GM 3: "Oh, well, its actually Robbie Schremp, Alex Plante, and Riley Nash. Same thing, though"

GM 4: *Click
So because the Oilers can't draft that means that no one can? Perhaps you should take a look at Ottawa's draft history. That seems to make more sense to me but what do I know.

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04-19-2013, 08:43 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Challenge accepted seeing as these first round picks would be coming from the Ottawa Senators. Out of 19 Ottawa first round picks going up to 2009 all but three have played in more than 82 NHL games. One of those three is still currently playing on the roster.
Oh, my mistake. What you said makes perfect sense now.

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04-19-2013, 08:43 PM
  #130
Dick Whitman
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Right, because you're completely innocent of logical fallacies.
If you'd like to point some out in this thread, I'd be more than happy to retract my post. I literally would.

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04-19-2013, 08:45 PM
  #131
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Oh, my mistake. What you said makes perfect sense now.
I'm glad you've seen the light.

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04-19-2013, 08:45 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Right, because you're completely innocent of logical fallacies.
Are any of your posts not sarcastic and bitter comments?

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Old
04-19-2013, 08:46 PM
  #133
soothsayer
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
So because the Oilers can't draft that means that no one can? Perhaps you should take a look at Ottawa's draft history. That seems to make more sense to me but what do I know.
Logical fallacies are not contingent.

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04-19-2013, 08:47 PM
  #134
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Time to lock this up, I think.

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Old
04-19-2013, 08:49 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Make a poll and see what others have to say about the comparable value of the two players.
Lets hope a poll is not how management makes their decisions.

I would expect a poll for the two players today and one in a couple of years would have very different results.

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Old
04-19-2013, 08:50 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
If you'd like to point some out in this thread, I'd be more than happy to retract my post. I literally would.
The most obvious one is the violation of the law of identity.

A=A

In this case, a 1st round draft pick = a 1st round draft pick

When you make a trade for draft picks, you make a trade for draft picks. Trading Pempuel and Ceci is not the same thing as trading two first round draft picks.

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04-19-2013, 08:56 PM
  #137
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My two cents. I dont make the trade. Our top 6 is getting crowded. Nothing against Eberle, but a defenseman is what we need more.

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04-19-2013, 09:06 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Altimus View Post
My two cents. I dont make the trade. Our top 6 is getting crowded. Nothing against Eberle, but a defenseman is what we need more.
When there is such a big difference in talent/value, you make the trade regardless of needs.

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Old
04-19-2013, 09:23 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
We saw how that worked out in the recent Rick Nash and Jarome Iginla trades.
Ohhhhh I get it... there is a time machine on the Sens board and you all have gone into the future where Eberle demanded a trade and/or was in his late 30s... if so then YES... Cowan straight across is fair value... but may I suggest Sens fans use device to use in ways that help humanity... not to come up with trade proposals

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04-19-2013, 09:30 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Ohhhhh I get it... there is a time machine on the Sens board and you all have gone into the future where Eberle demanded a trade and/or was in his late 30s... if so then YES... Cowan straight across is fair value... but may I suggest Sens fans use device to use in ways that help humanity... not to come up with trade proposals
My point is that real life trades never live up to what blatant homers expect the return to be, and was not that Eberle reflects those two players. By the way the player in question is named Cowen not Cowan. You also still seem to have failed to grasp that I have not said a one for one trade is fair. At this stage Ottawa would not move Cowen because his value is still too low and he fills a team need. If he develops into the top pairing defenseman that Ottawa fans think he will become then a one for one deal could become a lot more reasonable. At the moment Eberle is the more proven player.

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04-19-2013, 09:30 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Ohhhhh I get it... there is a time machine on the Sens board and you all have gone into the future where Eberle demanded a trade and/or was in his late 30s... if so then YES... Cowan straight across is fair value... but may I suggest Sens fans use device to use in ways that help humanity... not to come up with trade proposals
The sens do not currently have rights to Cowan.

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Old
04-19-2013, 09:35 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
My point is that real life trades never live up to what blatant homers expect the return to be, and was not that Eberle reflects those two players.
So again I have to ask...

-Is Eberle in his late 30s
-Did he ask for a trade

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04-19-2013, 09:37 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
So again I have to ask...

-Is Eberle in his late 30s
-Did he ask for a trade
No Eberle is not in his late thirties and he has not asked for a trade. Edmonton is however in a position where they may have to move out a forward to improve the rest of their team. Teams know that the Oilers want to make a move and therefore they are not going to be forced to over pay.

May I ask what the return for the last twenty-two year old forward with one solid season under his belt was?

That should give you an idea of what Eberle would return in a deal. If Edmonton decides to move one of their young forwards (Eberle) they are most likely going to be trying to get back a top four defenseman that fits into the age group of their current core. This player is not necessarily Cowen, but I don't think they are going to be getting back multiple pieces like most fans would expect. Now if a team demanded Hall, a player Edmonton likely has no interest in moving, then it would take a significant over payment to make them give him up.


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04-19-2013, 09:41 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by soothsayer View Post
Oh, my mistake. What you said makes perfect sense now.
why don't you revisit that post you quoted. i'll change it a bit for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Challenge accepted [...] these first round picks would be coming from [team x]. Out of 19 [team x] first round picks going up to 2009 all but three have played in more than 82 NHL games. One of those three is still currently playing on the roster. [team x] has proven themselves to be a team that drafts and developed very well. One could argue that a first round [team x] drafted player is generally worth more than your average first round draft pick. [...]
you didn't argue a single thing in his post. you dismissed it without addressing the main points. you pointed out something practically irrelevant and went on like there was nothing valid in the rest of it. you were saying something about logical fallacies, i think you just did one yourself.

since i'm here, i'd just like to say that i wouldn't trade for eberle because his value is too high. i would also not trade cowen because i think he brings something we need and would be hard to replace. i also believe that cowen has #1 potential. paying what it would take to please edmonton fans, or even the more realistic demands their gm would make it not worth it for us. if we want to acquire someone, we should go after a cheaper option. perhaps someone older, less talented, or both.

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04-19-2013, 09:42 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
May I ask what the return for the last twenty-two year old forward with one solid season under his belt was? That should give you an idea of what Eberle would return in a deal.
Interesting criteria... what is the value of the last 23 year old defenceman to have one solid season and a serious injury under his belt I wonder....

I also wonder about the value of 22 year old D with NO great seasons under their belt... and one full season period...

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04-19-2013, 09:44 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by ATdaisuki View Post
why don't you revisit that post you quoted. i'll change it a bit for you.



you didn't argue a single thing in his post. you dismissed it without addressing the main points. you pointed out something practically irrelevant and went on like there was nothing valid in the rest of it. you were saying something about logical fallacies, i think you just did one yourself.

since i'm here, i'd just like to say that i wouldn't trade for eberle because his value is too high. i would also not trade cowen because i think he brings something we need and would be hard to replace. i also believe that cowen has #1 potential. paying what it would take to please edmonton fans, or even the more realistic demands their gm would make it not worth it for us. if we want to acquire someone, we should go after a cheaper option. perhaps someone older, less talented, or both.
I actually never mentioned a thing about logical fallacies. The point of my post in that case was to show that players drafted in the first round could have equal value or greater value over unused first round picks based on the team they were coming from. The post I responded to argued that draft history shows that first round picks don't always work out and thus were not worth as much as picks that could be used by one's own scouting staff. Sooth's original post was related to another person's proposal of three first round draft picks from Ottawa and thus I used Ottawa's draft history to refute the claim that first rounders rarely play over 82 games in the NHL. I fail to see how my response was not directly related to Sooth's main point.


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Old
04-19-2013, 09:45 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Interesting criteria... what is the value of the last 23 year old defenceman to have one solid season and a serious injury under his belt I wonder....

I also wonder about the value of 22 year old D with NO great seasons under their belt... and one full season period...
Alright so basically you have no intention of supporting your argument at all.

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04-19-2013, 09:45 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Interesting criteria... what is the value of the last 23 year old defenceman to have one solid season and a serious injury under his belt I wonder....

I also wonder about the value of 22 year old D with NO great seasons under their belt... and one full season period...
James VanReimsdyk

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Old
04-19-2013, 09:51 PM
  #149
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Is it easier to get players like Eberle or Cowan?

You keep the one that's harder to get, or you just start creating holes to fill in other holes.

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04-19-2013, 09:53 PM
  #150
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I don't really see Cowen being a guy I'd deal Eberle for if I'm the Oilers.

The Oilers want to get tougher up front. What about targeting Lucic?

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