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2013-14 Flyers Overhaul

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Old
04-19-2013, 11:57 AM
  #451
Flyotes
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Gagne better be resigned.
Seems more likely with Feds making some comments about being unhappy and not being in the role he wanted.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:01 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm just not seeing it, I guess. I think Couturier holds more value that Gormley, to be sure, but the gap isn't that between the 11th overall and the 38th overall.

The trade just seems unlikely to me--there's a lot of risk in prospect swaps, and when you start including high draft picks as well, I just don't see it as likely.





He hasn't had the same cap restrictions in the past. Unless the team is going to buy out both Bryzgalov and Briere--which I think we all think is quite unlikely--I don't see the Flyers playing the same role this year in free agency that they have in the recent past.
I hope he also takes the "relaxed" approach since the younger guys will be getting a little older. One thing I THINK might happen is a Couturier trade. I 100% dont want it to, but this whole thing reminds me of the JVR session (smoke where there's fire). Don't know if he will pull a trigger, but he will listen and most likely contemplate hard on a few offers.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:02 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm just not seeing it, I guess. I think Couturier holds more value that Gormley, to be sure, but the gap isn't that between the 11th overall and the 38th overall.

The trade just seems unlikely to me--there's a lot of risk in prospect swaps, and when you start including high draft picks as well, I just don't see it as likely.





He hasn't had the same cap restrictions in the past. Unless the team is going to buy out both Bryzgalov and Briere--which I think we all think is quite unlikely--I don't see the Flyers playing the same role this year in free agency that they have in the recent past.
Maybe you do Couturier, Read and a 2nd for Gormley and a 1st and resign Gagne.

Horton-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Mantha-Laughton-Gagne
Rinaldo-Hall-Talbot

Timonen-Schenn
Zaitsev-Coburn
Gormley-Grossmann

Emery
Mason

Then the following year on D you have

Gormley-Schenn
Nurse-Coburn
Zeitsev-Grossmann

That's potentially a REALLY good D in a few years. I really like nurse's potential and with our schedule coming up, I think it's certainly possible were in a position to draft him. I think he can develop into a #1, and id love having a Nurse-Schenn top pair when those guys hit their primes.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:06 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Maybe you do Couturier, Read and a 2nd for Gormley and a 1st and resign Gagne.

Horton-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Mantha-Laughton-Gagne
Rinaldo-Hall-Talbot

Timonen-Schenn
Zaitsev-Coburn
Gormley-Grossmann

Emery
Mason
Why not keep Couturier (and Read) and simply trade our 1st (+/-) for Gormley (+/-), or some similar defensive prospect?

(Horton)-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Laughton-Couturier-Read
Talbot-Hall-Rinaldo
Rosehill

Timonen-Schenn
Gormley-Coburn
Gustafsson-Grossmann

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Gormley-Schenn
Nurse-Coburn
Zeitsev-Grossmann

That's potentially a REALLY good D in a few years.
Eh, I guess. There's no proven puck-mover there--it would be asking a lot of Gormley, and expecting quite a bit of development from Nurse. Zietsev is a complete wildcard at this point--I'm not prepared to pencil him in for the future.

Also, we'd have to get pretty lucky for Nurse to fall to us at this point, no? We're looking more likely to pick 10th than 6th.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:11 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Why not keep Couturier (and Read) and simply trade our 1st (+/-) for Gormley (+/-), or some similar defensive prospect?

(Horton)-Giroux-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Laughton-Couturier-Read
Talbot-Hall-Rinaldo
Rosehill

Timonen-Schenn
Gormley-Coburn
Gustafsson-Grossmann
Because under my plan, we'd have multiple young defenseman with potential in Gormley and whomever we draft, be it Nurse, Zadorov, Ristolainen etc. Gormley projects to be more of a #2-#3 two way guy, whereas Nurse could possible develop into a #1.

Having a young d core of:
Nurse
Gormley
Schenn
Zaitsev
Gostisbehere

Moving forward would be tremendous for this team, rather than simple taking a risk of trading a high pick for Gormley.

I think our forward core, especially if my plan was implemented and we took mantha, is able to withstand losing couturier and read (who I don't believe well be able to resign anyway) to make the young d core equally as deep.

It's a method of evening out the future potential/building blocks for this team. If you have as many good young guys as I'm proposing, you have a higher chance of one of them developing into a #1 for you. It also doesn't put an abundant amount of pressure on ONE young guy to become a #1.


Last edited by orange is better: 04-19-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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Old
04-19-2013, 12:24 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I hope he also takes the "relaxed" approach since the younger guys will be getting a little older. One thing I THINK might happen is a Couturier trade. I 100% dont want it to, but this whole thing reminds me of the JVR session (smoke where there's fire). Don't know if he will pull a trigger, but he will listen and most likely contemplate hard on a few offers.
I hope your wrong. I think Couturier and JVR situation are a little different. There were grumblings from the organization about JVR pretty much right after they drafted him starting with his subpar performance at the World Juniors. His effort was always in question it seems. The Flyers have done nothing but rave about Couturier.

I have no idea what they are going to do this summer. The only untouchable player might be Giroux. After that, they could make a ton of moves or do nothing. Should be interesting.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:26 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Because under my plan, we'd have multiple young defenseman with potential in Gormley and whomever we draft, be it Nurse, Zadorov, Ristolainen etc. Gormley projects to be more of a #2-#3 two way guy, whereas Nurse could possible develop into a #1.

Having a young d core of:
Nurse
Gormley
Schenn
Zaitsev
Gostisbehere

Moving forward would be tremendous for this team, rather than simple taking a risk of trading a high pick for Gormley.

I think our forward core, especially if my plan was implemented and we took mantha, is able to withstand losing couturier and read (who I don't believe well be able to resign anyway) to make the young d core equally as deep.

It's a method of evening out the future potential/building blocks for this team. If you have as many good young guys as I'm proposing, you have a higher chance of one of them developing into a #1 for you. It also doesn't put an abundant amount of pressure on ONE young guy to become a #1.
I dunno. It just seems to me that if you're willing to give up Couturier and Read, you should start by tossing them + our 1st at whoever ends up 1st overall and get an actual franchise defenseman.

More importantly, I just don't see the Flyers taking the 3-5 year plan you suggest (only Gormley and Schenn figure to play any sort of significant role in the next few seasons). If we win a cup in the near future, it will be on the Carolina model--no true #1 defenseman. We might as well accept that as a reality.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather we draft Nurse--and if it is only going to cost a 3rd or something to jump up and get him, I'd do it. But trading Couturier and Read (+) for Gormley and Mantha? Meh. I don't see it has helping now, or in the future.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 04-19-2013 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Oops.
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Old
04-19-2013, 12:33 PM
  #458
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Other than getting lucky in the draft or overpaying for an older No. 1 as a UFA (Streit) or trading for a struggling young one (Myers) you are not going to get one. If Gromley or Rundblad were such sure things there teams would not trade them. Further, Rundblad would be playing already. The suggestions on here are fantasy scenarios.
I am not interested in trading proven NHL assets for Gormley or Rundblad for proven NHL talent. The Idea of trading Couturier for either guy is rather insane.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:33 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I dunno. It just seems to me that if you're willing to give up Couturier, the 8th overall, and Read, you should start by tossing that offer at whoever ends up 1st overall and get an actual franchise defenseman.

More importantly, I just don't see the Flyers taking the 3-5 year plan you suggest (only Gormley and Schenn figure to play any sort of significant role in the next few seasons). If we win a cup in the near future, it will be on the Carolina model--no true #1 defenseman. We might as well accept that as a reality.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather we draft Nurse--and if it is only going to cost a 3rd or something to jump up and get him, I'd do it. But trading Couturier and Read (+) for Gormley and Mantha? Meh. I don't see it has helping now, or in the future.
I wasn't proposing trading couturier, read and our 1st I was proposing couturier, read and our 2nd, but if you could trade couturier, read and the 8th overall for the 1st overall and draft jones, I'd do that as well.

I'm just really high on both nurse and mantha. I think mantha can be a 1st line winger, and I think nurse can be at least a #2. I don't believe Couts is ever going to reach his potential here. I think the organization is higher on Schenn and I think Laughton is better suited to be a 3rd line C. If you can trade him to even out the young core on d and f, then id do it.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:41 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
I wasn't proposing trading couturier, read and our 1st I was proposing couturier, read and our 2nd, but if you could trade couturier, read and the 8th overall for the 1st overall and draft jones, I'd do that as well.

I'm just really high on both nurse and mantha. I think mantha can be a 1st line winger, and I think nurse can be at least a #2. I don't believe Couts is ever going to reach his potential here. I think the organization is higher on Schenn and I think Laughton is better suited to be a 3rd line C. If you can trade him to even out the young core on d and f, then id do it.
Yeah, I knew something was screwy. I'll fix my post.

Anyway, I think there are a few teams (CGY, NSH) who would strongly consider trading out of #1 for #8+Couturier--I don't think you'd even have to include Read. I'm not advocating it--it is a huge risk--but if we're going to move Couturier for a defensive prospect, you might as well explore it.

As I've said a dozen times, though, I'd much rather trade the 8th overall for a defensive prospect than move Couturier.

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Old
04-19-2013, 12:52 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Yeah, I knew something was screwy. I'll fix my post.

Anyway, I think there are a few teams (CGY, NSH) who would strongly consider trading out of #1 for #8+Couturier--I don't think you'd even have to include Read. I'm not advocating it--it is a huge risk--but if we're going to move Couturier for a defensive prospect, you might as well explore it.

As I've said a dozen times, though, I'd much rather trade the 8th overall for a defensive prospect than move Couturier.
Then that's where our opinions differ.

It's not that I dislike couturier, in fact I'm a big fan of couturier. I just think he'd be better suited bringing us a piece that will better serve our team in the future, because I don't believe he will reach his potential here behind Giroux and Schenn and I think Laughton can step in and be effective as the 3C next season. I really don't think losing Couturier would be that detrimental to this team moving forward. It might actually be beneficial of you can bolster the d cores potential.

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Old
04-19-2013, 02:14 PM
  #462
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Trade this years first next years first and read for the first overall. Not sure if that gets it done but it could be close.

Harntell-Giroux-Voracek
Gagne-schenn-Simmonds
Laughton-couturier-mcGinn
Talbot-hall-rinaldo
Rosehill

Timonen-schenn
Coburn-jones
Grossmann-Gus

Bryz
Mason

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Old
04-19-2013, 03:30 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by FLYERSFAN18 View Post
Trade this years first next years first and read for the first overall. Not sure if that gets it done but it could be close.

Harntell-Giroux-Voracek
Gagne-schenn-Simmonds
Laughton-couturier-mcGinn
Talbot-hall-rinaldo
Rosehill

Timonen-schenn
Coburn-jones
Grossmann-Gus

Bryz
Mason
Interesting. I don't know how I would feel about that deal. On the one side it gets us Jones, a guy who seems to be exactly what this team needs, while only giving up really next year's first and Read (a guy who may not have a future in Philly anyway because of the salary cap constraints and the RFAs we have coming up). On the other side, I don't know that Jones is more valuable than the two guys we would get and also Read.

Not sure that this goes down anyway though.

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Old
04-19-2013, 04:23 PM
  #464
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If you do that trade, better hope Jones will be that much better than Risto/Zadarov or whoever we draft + whoever we get next season + Read.

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04-19-2013, 04:34 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If you do that trade, better hope Jones will be that much better than Risto/Zadarov or whoever we draft + whoever we get next season + Read.
I think that is the idea. I don't necessarily know whether or not he is, but I think the idea is that Jones could be a true #1 franchise guy. I don't think that Risto or Zadarov are projected that high. Sure it could happen with them but that is not their projected path at this point. I think they project to top out as top pair guys, but more likely will be top four guys.

I don't know how I would quantify that value. Is a #1 defenseman worth a pick and a good young player? Absolutely. Is a shot at a number 1 defenseman worth all that...not sure.

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04-19-2013, 04:53 PM
  #466
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I think that is the idea. I don't necessarily know whether or not he is, but I think the idea is that Jones could be a true #1 franchise guy. I don't think that Risto or Zadarov are projected that high. Sure it could happen with them but that is not their projected path at this point. I think they project to top out as top pair guys, but more likely will be top four guys.

I don't know how I would quantify that value. Is a #1 defenseman worth a pick and a good young player? Absolutely. Is a shot at a number 1 defenseman worth all that...not sure.
This is basically what I am thinking. Also that I don't think we will be able to sign read because I think he is going to get around 4-4.5 mil. And the first next year won't be as high as we have this year. I think jones is the best bet we have to getting a potential #1 guy.

Edit: I also trust this team to be able to find forward talent than I do defensive talent. Snd jones is probably the closest to a sure thing in any recent draft


Last edited by FLYERSFAN18: 04-19-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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Old
04-19-2013, 05:02 PM
  #467
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Trade this years first next years first and read for the first overall. Not sure if that gets it done but it could be close.
Eh, I don't think that's going to get it done. It isn't strictly about value--even a late 1st, coupled with Matt Read, should be enough to move up 6 spots--but the 1st overall is a marketing as well as hockey piece. If you go down the list, who seems likely do that move?

Couturier is the only chip we have that can get us from 8 to 1st, IMO, and even then it depends on the team (Colorado wouldn't do it; Carolina probably wouldn't; Calgary and Nashville might, etc.

That's a huge price to pay--you'd have to be absolutely certain that Jones is going to be a #1. If you think he is, then you do the deal--but there's a lot of risk.

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04-19-2013, 07:41 PM
  #468
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It would have to be massive overpayment to get the 1st overall.

Couturier, Coburn, our 1st, our 3rd

Would probably be what it would take, and honestly I'd do it.

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04-19-2013, 08:02 PM
  #469
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It would have to be massive overpayment to get the 1st overall.

Couturier, Coburn, our 1st, our 3rd

Would probably be what it would take, and honestly I'd do it.
I would not. We are not deep enough in prospect to do that kind of deal. Jones will not be better than Couts and our 1st together...let along adding Coburn and a 3rd. In fact, probably for the next year or 2, Jones might not be as good as Coburn. I would rather take my chances on Couts and Zadorov instead of Jones.

I would entertain the idea of trading Couts for a young D-man with #2 upside depending on who it is.

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04-19-2013, 08:15 PM
  #470
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It would have to be massive overpayment to get the 1st overall.

Couturier, Coburn, our 1st, our 3rd

Would probably be what it would take, and honestly I'd do it.
Wow...massive overpayment is the correct term to use.

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04-19-2013, 08:19 PM
  #471
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I would not. We are not deep enough in prospect to do that kind of deal. Jones will not be better than Couts and our 1st together...let along adding Coburn and a 3rd. In fact, probably for the next year or 2, Jones might not be as good as Coburn. I would rather take my chances on Couts and Zadorov instead of Jones.

I would entertain the idea of trading Couts for a young D-man with #2 upside depending on who it is.
agreed.

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Old
04-19-2013, 08:23 PM
  #472
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I would not. We are not deep enough in prospect to do that kind of deal. Jones will not be better than Couts and our 1st together...let along adding Coburn and a 3rd. In fact, probably for the next year or 2, Jones might not be as good as Coburn. I would rather take my chances on Couts and Zadorov instead of Jones.

I would entertain the idea of trading Couts for a young D-man with #2 upside depending on who it is.
Agree 100% with first part. I like Jones a lot but that's too much to gamble on with our lack of prospects in the system.

I don't agree with the last part though. IMO I would only move Couturier for a proven defensemen rather than one with potential.

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04-19-2013, 10:14 PM
  #473
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I think the Flyers are in a great spot moving into next season. They have very valuable (and expendable) assets at forward that could return them defensive help plus some very good defensive options at the draft. They aren't going to get Jones and won't get Nurse if they win some more games but there are some other really good defensemen in this draft that may wind up being 1st pairing material.

The development of Laughton and Cousins could make Couturier and Read very valuable trade assets for somebody like Gormley, etc. Zaitsev and the development of Gustafsson are very encouraging.

Voracek Giroux Hartnell
Gagne Schenn Simmonds
Mantha Laughton Cousins
Talbot Hall Rinaldo

Schenn Streit
Coburn Gustafsson
Grossman Nurse
Gotsisbehere/Zaitsev/Lauridsen

Mason
Emery

Can they afford Horton and Streit without Briere and Bryzgalov? I don't really like Horton (soft melon) but is there a better 4 million dollar option at wing? They have so much young talent at forward even without Couturier. Intsead of signing Streit they could trade Couturier for a defenseman with a better contract. I didn't do any math obviously.

I would love to see Coburn gone for a better puck mover. Schenn Streit would be a damn good pairing and so would something like Yandl Grossman would be good too. We wouldn't want Streit and Yandl though.

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04-19-2013, 10:26 PM
  #474
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Way too early to be putting Cousins in the lineup.

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04-19-2013, 10:31 PM
  #475
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Way too early to be putting Cousins in the lineup.
Yeah I think he's better suited in the AHL for at least a year and take it from there unless he blows up at summer camps.

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