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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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04-19-2013, 11:27 PM
  #251
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
A) In 1991, at age 30, Wayne Gretzky had a better season than Pavel Datsyuk has ever had, will ever have, or could dream of having.
Exactly what metric are you using?

Only offensive counting stats no doubt.

In this great season he was on the ice for ESGF/ESGA of 130/100 which really isn't very good at all when one is talking about elite seasons. this is for an LA team that had a 340/254 GF/GA split.

I'll take Dats in either 08 or 09 when he was 29 and 30 and had splits of 84/43 and 84/50 for teams that had splits of 257/184 and 295/244.

Quote:
B) R-on/off can be useful, but for everyone who says "let's not be too hard on Messier, he was competing with Gretzky," the inverse is true as well. Outscoring the Messier/Anderson line, or the Nicholls/Robitaille/Taylor line by a little is better than outscoring a Johan Franzen line by a lot.
It's another metric that is more usefull when grouping seasons together to get a picture rather than just looking at stand alone seasons.

Quote:
Also let's not be suckers for +/-. Unless you want to say that Marty McSorley (+48) was better than Gretzky (+30) in 1991. Goals-Assists-Points are much better numbers to look at than Total Goals For.
This was brought up before and that's why it's good to look at more than one season at a time and why I did the Dats/Wayne comp over 2 3 season stretches.

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04-19-2013, 11:29 PM
  #252
Morgoth Bauglir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
This was brought up before and that's why it's good to look at more than one season at a time and why I did the Dats/Wayne comp over 2 3 season stretches.
A meaningless stat that's doubled or trebled is still meaningless.

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04-19-2013, 11:40 PM
  #253
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Have you ever seen him play?



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04-19-2013, 11:43 PM
  #254
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[QUOTE=Rhiessan71;64295527]Need more context.
The r-on/R-off needs to be included so we can examine how much of that is team based and how much of a difference said player is to his team average.

Dats age 28 produced 55ES, 29PP, 3SH +36 76/40=1.90
Gretzky age 28 produced 101ES, 52PP, 15SH +15 1.12

Dats age 29 produced 56ES, 40PP, 1SH +41 1.95
Gretzky age 29 produced 96ES, 40PP, 6SH +8 1.67

Dats age 30 produced 59ES, 36PP, 2SH +34 1.68
Gretzky age 30 produced 103ES, 59PP, 1SH +30 1.30

At the 28 year level, Gretzky more than makes up for any ES advantage Dats has by dominating him in special teams.

At the 29 year level, this is the only year Dats looks better than Gretzky statwise. This is also the year that Gretzky plays injured quite often while trying to "sell" the game in the Southern markets.

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At the 30 year level, this is once again Gretzky's show. He not only matches Dats' ES ratio but also dominates him in on the special teams front once again.
What ES ratio are you talking about?

I will put their respective ESGF/ESGA ratios in bold after said seasons for you. We all know that Wayne scored more points than Dats but he also allowed a ton more goals while he was on the ice as well.


Quote:
Either way, at the end of the day, scoring goals gets you wins.
Preventing goals gets you shootouts.
I know which one is more important in the playoff's
Once again from age 28,29,30 grouping and 31,32,33 it's very close for Pavel and Wayne. Wayne has better offensive production but Dats has excellent production and his defensive game is superb as well.

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04-19-2013, 11:46 PM
  #255
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A meaningless stat that's doubled or trebled is still meaningless.
Well it's not actually meaningless at all when given context and taken with other factors but we all know your evaluation process already.

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04-19-2013, 11:48 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well it's not actually meaningless at all when given context and taken with other factors but we all know your evaluation process already.
+/- is a meaningless stat. As I said, you're the only poster I've seen obsess about it. Everyone else seems to have gotten the memo. Bottom-line is +/- is a team stat that tells you absolutely nothing about an individual player.

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04-20-2013, 12:04 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
+/- is a meaningless stat. As I said, you're the only poster I've seen obsess about it. Everyone else seems to have gotten the memo. Bottom-line is +/- is a team stat that tells you absolutely nothing about an individual player.
Then the fact that Dats, for example led his team in scoring in 08 with 97 points and was 1st in in plus minus with 41 (Lidstrom had 40 then Zetts with 30) and in the playoffs Dats was 2nd on the team in scoring and one of 5 players in 22GP to have double digits in plus/minus tells us nothing?

Like I said before to only look at offensive stats is great for fantasy hockey but not so for real NHL hockey.

Context matters as well but absolute statements like
Quote:
it tells you absolutely nothing about an individual player
only goes to show the seriousness of the one believing such an absolute statement.

For the record pretty much every great player is over rated by some and under rated by others, Mario is no exception in this matter.

A great offensive talent to be sure but not quite the winner one would expect and his overall game lacked completeness.

Guys in fantasy pools couldn't care less about the latter, they only cared about Marios good health and teams with more dedication to overall play won Stanley Cups more often.

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04-20-2013, 12:10 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Then the fact that Dats, for example led his team in scoring in 08 with 97 points and was 1st in in plus minus with 41 (Lidstrom had 40 then Zetts with 30) and in the playoffs Dats was 2nd on the team in scoring and one of 5 players in 22GP to have double digits in plus/minus tells us nothing?

Like I said before to only look at offensive stats is great for fantasy hockey but not so for real NHL hockey.

Context matters as well but absolute statements like only goes to show the seriousness of the one believing such an absolute statement.

For the record pretty much every great player is over rated by some and under rated by others, Mario is no exception in this matter.

A great offensive talent to be sure but not quite the winner one would expect and his overall game lacked completeness.

Guys in fantasy pools couldn't care less about the latter, they only cared about Marios good health and teams with more dedication to overall play won Stanley Cups more often.
And of course in this post you've said absolutely nothing that refutes the fact that +/- is a team stat rather than an individual one. Are you still rating goalies by GAA? It's the same thing: Foolishly using a team metric to try to say something about an individual player.

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04-20-2013, 12:16 AM
  #259
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The only time Lemieux is overrated, is when people say he is better than Gretzky.

Gretzky has more points, more goals, assists, better individual seasons, career, more goals per game at their peak, more cups, more trophies, etc... Gretzky was better and anyone who says otherwise is overrating Lemieux or underrating Gretzky.

In any other way - no - he was a fantastic player and aside from Wayne, he was the best forward to ever lace up skates.

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04-20-2013, 01:39 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Exactly what metric are you using?

Only offensive counting stats no doubt.

In this great season he was on the ice for ESGF/ESGA of 130/100 which really isn't very good at all when one is talking about elite seasons. this is for an LA team that had a 340/254 GF/GA split.

I'll take Dats in either 08 or 09 when he was 29 and 30 and had splits of 84/43 and 84/50 for teams that had splits of 257/184 and 295/244.

It's another metric that is more usefull when grouping seasons together to get a picture rather than just looking at stand alone seasons.

This was brought up before and that's why it's good to look at more than one season at a time and why I did the Dats/Wayne comp over 2 3 season stretches.
Gotcha. So what did you say when people pointed out that from 1991-1993, McSorley had a better +/- than Gretzky?

Or that from 1988-90, Bob Errey beats the apparently highly overrated Mario Lemieux?

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04-20-2013, 05:05 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

I will put their respective ESGF/ESGA ratios in bold after said seasons for you. We all know that Wayne scored more points than Dats but he also allowed a ton more goals while he was on the ice as well.



Once again from age 28,29,30 grouping and 31,32,33 it's very close for Pavel and Wayne. Wayne has better offensive production but Dats has excellent production and his defensive game is superb as well.
You still need to provide the R-on/R-off numbers before it means anything.

And what happened to your +/- aurguments? Do they suddenly not apply now?

One thing I do know without a shadow of a doubt...
It is a HELL of a lot harder for a player to score 100+ ES points and over 160 points in general than it is to score 60 ES points and prevent 40. Adjusted for era or not!

It is ALWAYS easier to prevent goals than it is to score them.
There have been plenty of players that were high scorers and superb defensively in the history of the NHL comparable to Dats.
There has only been one player comparable to Gretzky...the guy this thread is about!!!


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04-20-2013, 05:07 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Then the fact that Dats, for example led his team in scoring in 08 with 97 points and was 1st in in plus minus with 41 (Lidstrom had 40 then Zetts with 30) and in the playoffs Dats was 2nd on the team in scoring and one of 5 players in 22GP to have double digits in plus/minus tells us nothing?
You seem to think that it tells us that:

Datsyuk was directly responsible for 84 ES Goals for
Datsyuk was directly responsible for 43 ES Goals against
Lidstrom was directly responsible for 84 ES Goals for
Lidstrom was directly responsible for 44 ES Goals against
Zetterberg was directly responsible for 72 ES Goals for
Zetterberg was directly responsible for 42 ES Goals against

When truthfully, these players have far less of an impact on every goal for/against than you're trying to tell us. I mean, the Red Wings didn't even score (84+84+72) ES Goals or let in (43+44+42) ES Goals that season, so there is a serious amount of overlap going on. Players get pluses on goals for which they were not a contributor. Players get minuses on goals for which they did their role defensively.

It is an unreliable statistic.

But here's the kicker about Gretzky and Lemieux: They were so extremely talented offensively, they were a greater proximate cause for their pluses than Datsyuk was for his - and since they weren't defenseman or goalies, there's typically going to be someone else on the Kings or Penguins who was a greater proximate cause for their minuses.

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04-20-2013, 09:29 AM
  #263
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I've often said this before, +/- is a side dish. It is a stat meant to be a cherry on top. You are one person on the ice of 6 overall (including the goalie). In Los Angeles the goalie and sometimes the other 4 players didn't do their part.

Steve Shutt has the 6th highest single season +/- of all-time at +88. This was in 1977. No doubt Shutt was a fine player, but are these numbers a reflection of him, or more of a reflection that his linemate was Lafleur, his defenseman was Robinson (+120) and his goalie was Dryden? So you always have to take +/- into context. Stan Mikita won the Art Ross in 1968 and was a -3 on a very good Hawks team. Not to mention there are great players who are a career minus player. Dale Hawerchuk for one. We all know about his offense but most of us would agree he was responsible defensively too. However, when you are the only star on the Winnipeg Jets you are going to have to carry the load. Dallas Smith was a +94 in 1971. Is it because of him, or more or less the cause of Orr and Esposito filling the net?

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04-20-2013, 09:54 AM
  #264
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What is with this emphasis on power play and even strength points? Las time I checked a power play goal helps a team win a game too. Let's split Lemieux's 1989 season up shall we?

Lemieux 1989 - 102 ES points, 79 PP points, 18 SH points

Am I missing something here? What gives? Bottom line is, if we didn't know this already, you put Lemieux on the ice in any situation at any time and he would excel. Shorthanded he was a threat, 5-on-5 and on the power play. Other than when we would see Lemieux dangle his way through defensemen you have to remember that the power play structure was TAILOR MADE for Lemieux. Even at even strength he was able to slow the game down to whatever level he wanted to. On the power play he would often be at the side boards on the left side just daring the defenseman to pressure him. I honestly think the power play situation fit Lemieux better than any other player in NHL history. Gretzky was good on the power play too, but his game was more off the cuff and subtle. Lemieux up until his first retirement was dangerous in all three situations of the game and the stats show it. For whatever reason, it is something a player gets penalized for now.

Plus look at the 57% of his team's goals in 1989 that he was in on. That is just pure dominance and no one else - not Gretzky or Yzerman - carried the load as much as Lemieux did.

The biggest factor in Lemieux not winning either award in 1989 was his reputation at that time. Gretzky's was polished for sure and Lemieux's was not of the favourable kind. He was very much the anti-Gretzky at that time in the eyes of many. Never led his teams anywhere, dove on the ice, complained on the ice, wasn't as friendly to the media at that time. Lots of factors. So considering Gretzky had a season close to Lemieux and Yzerman just so happened to have a season that gave a mild argument for the Hart this is what made Lemieux lose either award. This is a pre-cancer, pre-Cup Lemieux. The media had a much different opinion of him back then. To me, that is the factor here because no one can say Lemieux didn't have the best season or wasthe most valuable player on his team in 1989.

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04-20-2013, 09:54 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Kevin8se7en View Post
The only time Lemieux is overrated, is when people say he is better than Gretzky.

Gretzky has more points, more goals, assists, better individual seasons, career, more goals per game at their peak, more cups, more trophies, etc... Gretzky was better and anyone who says otherwise is overrating Lemieux or underrating Gretzky.

In any other way - no - he was a fantastic player and aside from Wayne, he was the best forward to ever lace up skates.
i'm one of those people. Gretzky came into the NHL ( well, WHA first ) with a stacked team and put up insane numbers. Lemieux came into the NHL on a bottom feeding team that took years before they even became a contender.

while Gretzky was an insanely gifted playmaker and would have most likely not suffered much during the dead puck era - i highly doubt the same can be said about his goalscoring.

and when you come down to the meat of it, with everything that has happened to Lemieux - the only difference is a measly 0.04 PPG difference between the two.

i've seen both play a lot growing up and Lemieux was just on another level to me. he was tall, had a great reach, could at a turn of a dime just burn a defender, he could score from anywhere even during the dead puck era while carrying 2-3 guys on him ( hell, we've seen him score one-handed )...

if he had been able to be healthier, i know without a doubt he would have broken a lot of Gretzky's records.

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04-20-2013, 10:00 AM
  #266
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What is with this emphasis on power play and even strength points? Las time I checked a power play goal helps a team win a game too. Let's split Lemieux's 1989 season up shall we?

Lemieux 1989 - 102 ES points, 79 PP points, 18 SH points

Am I missing something here? What gives? Bottom line is, if we didn't know this already, you put Lemieux on the ice in any situation at any time and he would excel. Shorthanded he was a threat, 5-on-5 and on the power play. Other than when we would see Lemieux dangle his way through defensemen you have to remember that the power play structure was TAILOR MADE for Lemieux. Even at even strength he was able to slow the game down to whatever level he wanted to. On the power play he would often be at the side boards on the left side just daring the defenseman to pressure him. I honestly think the power play situation fit Lemieux better than any other player in NHL history. Gretzky was good on the power play too, but his game was more off the cuff and subtle. Lemieux up until his first retirement was dangerous in all three situations of the game and the stats show it. For whatever reason, it is something a player gets penalized for now.

Plus look at the 57% of his team's goals in 1989 that he was in on. That is just pure dominance and no one else - not Gretzky or Yzerman - carried the load as much as Lemieux did.

The biggest factor in Lemieux not winning either award in 1989 was his reputation at that time. Gretzky's was polished for sure and Lemieux's was not of the favourable kind. He was very much the anti-Gretzky at that time in the eyes of many. Never led his teams anywhere, dove on the ice, complained on the ice, wasn't as friendly to the media at that time. Lots of factors. So considering Gretzky had a season close to Lemieux and Yzerman just so happened to have a season that gave a mild argument for the Hart this is what made Lemieux lose either award. This is a pre-cancer, pre-Cup Lemieux. The media had a much different opinion of him back then. To me, that is the factor here because no one can say Lemieux didn't have the best season or wasthe most valuable player on his team in 1989.

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04-20-2013, 10:14 AM
  #267
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i'm one of those people. Gretzky came into the NHL ( well, WHA first ) with a stacked team and put up insane numbers. Lemieux came into the NHL on a bottom feeding team that took years before they even became a contender.

while Gretzky was an insanely gifted playmaker and would have most likely not suffered much during the dead puck era - i highly doubt the same can be said about his goalscoring.

and when you come down to the meat of it, with everything that has happened to Lemieux - the only difference is a measly 0.04 PPG difference between the two.

i've seen both play a lot growing up and Lemieux was just on another level to me. he was tall, had a great reach, could at a turn of a dime just burn a defender, he could score from anywhere even during the dead puck era while carrying 2-3 guys on him ( hell, we've seen him score one-handed )...

if he had been able to be healthier, i know without a doubt he would have broken a lot of Gretzky's records.
Just to touch on the falsehood of the early Oilers being good.

In 1980 (Gretzky's rookie year) the Oilers finished 16th of 21 teams. Jari Kurri and Paul Coffey are not in the NHL. A rookie Mark Messier scores 33 points. Gretzky still lead the league in points and won the Hart Trophy as a teenager. Who were the other guys on his team? A 94 point Blair MacDonald who's next best season was 43 points. After that it's a 66 point Stanley Weir. Even with Gretzky's help the Oilers are still only 9th in GF.

In 1981 the Oilers finished 13th of 21 teams. Coffey, Kurri, and Messier are all under 80 points. Gretzky dominates the scoring race. His 164 points are more than double the second best Oiler; a 75 point Kurri.

In 1982 the Oilers finally get good; finishing 2nd overall and 1st in GF. Gretzky breaks the point record for a second consecutive season. He doubles the second best Oiler (Anderson at 105 points) and has more goals than anyone, but Anderson had points.

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04-20-2013, 11:41 AM
  #268
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I know Lemieux is deemed untouchable on these boards (as he should be, the guy is a god on skates) but I would say that his 2001 playoff performance was mediocre by his standards. I've never seen any critical discussion of it either (probably because he'd just posted some ridiculous regular season numbers after a 3.5 year layoff and was way too venerated at that point for it to impact his legacy in any direction). I know Pittsburgh played more conservatively in the playoffs that year (I remember Hrdina and Hedberg having more influence on the results) and that neither jagr and kovalev performed up to their abilities, but it's just strange to see a legend like Lemieux drop below a ppg over such a significant stretch of games post retirement or not.


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04-20-2013, 01:00 PM
  #269
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I know Lemieux is deemed untouchable on these boards (as he should be, the guy is a god on skates) but I would say that his 2001 playoff performance was mediocre by his standards. I've never seen any critical discussion of it either (probably because he'd just posted some ridiculous regular season numbers after a 3.5 year layoff and was way too venerated at that point for it to impact his legacy in any direction). I know Pittsburgh played more conservatively in the playoffs that year (I remember Hrdina and Hedberg having more influence on the results) and that neither jagr and kovalev performed up to their abilities, but it's just strange to see a legend like Lemieux drop below a ppg over such a significant stretch of games post retirement or not.
He did good the first two rounds. Dropped a little against New Jersey in the semis. Against Buffalo he scored the tying goal in Game 6 with a minute left. The Pens won in overtime and then won Game 7 in overtime. I guess a lot of it has to do with the fact that this is a 35 year old Lemieux. We saw him play good in the 2002 Olympics and 2004 World Cup. He did very well, but he didn't take things over like a prime Lemieux did. I don't think we should have expected a 2001 Lemieux to have a playoff like he did 10 years earlier.

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04-20-2013, 01:27 PM
  #270
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Gotcha. So what did you say when people pointed out that from 1991-1993, McSorley had a better +/- than Gretzky?

Or that from 1988-90, Bob Errey beats the apparently highly overrated Mario Lemieux?
Well given that Errey was a plus 3 and Rechhi was a plus 6 on a team with everyone else in the top 10 scorers in the minus double digits except Phil Bourque who was minus 7, that team including Mario was pretty lousy 5-5.

Marty was a plus 36 good for 4th on LA while wayne was a plus 24 good for 7th.

Pretty hard to draw any conclusions on players being much better than others at ES without more information.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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04-20-2013, 01:46 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
i'm one of those people. Gretzky came into the NHL ( well, WHA first ) with a stacked team and put up insane numbers. Lemieux came into the NHL on a bottom feeding team that took years before they even became a contender.

while Gretzky was an insanely gifted playmaker and would have most likely not suffered much during the dead puck era - i highly doubt the same can be said about his goalscoring.

and when you come down to the meat of it, with everything that has happened to Lemieux - the only difference is a measly 0.04 PPG difference between the two.

i've seen both play a lot growing up and Lemieux was just on another level to me. he was tall, had a great reach, could at a turn of a dime just burn a defender, he could score from anywhere even during the dead puck era while carrying 2-3 guys on him ( hell, we've seen him score one-handed )...

if he had been able to be healthier, i know without a doubt he would have broken a lot of Gretzky's records.


Somebody needs to go have a look a the highest single season goal totals in the history of the NHL. And while you're at it just take a peak at the career goal totals just for S&G's.

The way some people talk you would think Gretz never even shot the puck.

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04-20-2013, 01:47 PM
  #272
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i'm one of those people. Gretzky came into the NHL ( well, WHA first ) with a stacked team and put up insane numbers. Lemieux came into the NHL on a bottom feeding team that took years before they even became a contender.


The team was not stacked when he came into the league. I mean outside having Gretzky that is.. two seconds on any site would tell you that.

And by the time Gretzky was putting up his first 200 point season he was still more than doubling the next best player on his team in scoring.


Quote:
while Gretzky was an insanely gifted playmaker and would have most likely not suffered much during the dead puck era - i highly doubt the same can be said about his goalscoring.

and when you come down to the meat of it, with everything that has happened to Lemieux - the only difference is a measly 0.04 PPG difference between the two.


And how many more games did Gretzky maintain that pace for?

Quote:
i've seen both play a lot growing up and Lemieux was just on another level to me. he was tall, had a great reach, could at a turn of a dime just burn a defender, he could score from anywhere even during the dead puck era while carrying 2-3 guys on him ( hell, we've seen him score one-handed )...
I also believe Lemieux was probably the best attacking player 1 on 1 ever..

Quote:
if he had been able to be healthier, i know without a doubt he would have broken a lot of Gretzky's records.
Maybe. For Lemieux it depended a lot more on how the rules were being enforced.

He relied on the PP a lot more for his offense than Gretzky did.

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04-20-2013, 01:57 PM
  #273
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You seem to think that it tells us that:

Datsyuk was directly responsible for 84 ES Goals for 56
Datsyuk was directly responsible for 43 ES Goals against
Lidstrom was directly responsible for 84 ES Goals for 35
Lidstrom was directly responsible for 44 ES Goals against
Zetterberg was directly responsible for 72 ES Goals for 55
Zetterberg was directly responsible for 42 ES Goals against

When truthfully, these players have far less of an impact on every goal for/against than you're trying to tell us. I mean, the Red Wings didn't even score (84+84+72) ES Goals or let in (43+44+42) ES Goals that season, so there is a serious amount of overlap going on. Players get pluses on goals for which they were not a contributor. Players get minuses on goals for which they did their role defensively.
For ESGF forwards are indeed more directly responsible for their GF stats.

In bold above I will add the players ESGF points and print them here
Dats 56 of 84 (20 goals)
Zetts 55 of 72 (26 goals)
Lidstrom 35 of 84 (5 goals)

Now we don't have raw stats for all seasons on defensive play but we do know that both Zetts and Dats take playing in their own zone quite seriously, so it would be fair to say that they are involved more in the prevention of goals than players like Mario and Wayne were just given the eye test.

Quote:
It is an unreliable statistic.
It's not as reliable as actual goals but it's usefull in context not a total waste as has been suggested by others here.

Quote:
But here's the kicker about Gretzky and Lemieux: They were so extremely talented offensively, they were a greater proximate cause for their pluses than Datsyuk was for his - and since they weren't defenseman or goalies, there's typically going to be someone else on the Kings or Penguins who was a greater proximate cause for their minuses.
Are Wayne and Mario greater proximate s for their GF?

Dats in the year above was directly involved in 67% of all of his ESGF, Zetts for 77%.

I'll look at 2 years each for Wayne and Mario, their highest scoring year and a later post age 30 year

Wayne at age 30 in 91, his 163 point season had 130 ESGF and 103 ES points good for an 80% direct rate, better than Dats by quite a bit and Zetts a bit.

At age 25 Wayne was directly in on 144 ESP of his 191 ESGF which is 75%

All of this really proves is that Wayne was in on more GF directly than Dats was, it doesn't prove the 2nd part of your assertion that

Quote:
and since they weren't defenseman or goalies, there's typically going to be someone else on the Kings or Penguins who was a greater proximate cause for their minuses.
If anything it's more plausible and likely that players like Dats and Zetts have better defensive numbers because of their actual commitment to defensive play and the high ESGA for Wayne and Mario are representative of their lack of such play.

Given the right peak play of Wayne and Mario, ie younger rather than older and excellent team conditions their offense was quite more valuable in winning games for their teams than later on in their careers when their offense had slipped a it, do to natural aging and it didn't make up for their lack or overall play at some point.

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Old
04-20-2013, 03:52 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Kevin8se7en View Post
In any other way - no - he was a fantastic player and aside from Wayne, he was the best forward to ever lace up skates.
Theres a much better argument for Howe being better than Lemieux as well, Mario should be rated the third best forward. However I can see some arguments for why people would put Mario ahead and a few people saying he is better then Howe wouldnt make me think hes overrated.

There is literally no argument for Mario over Wayne though

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04-20-2013, 04:42 PM
  #275
Kevin8se7en
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Originally Posted by sansabri View Post
i'm one of those people. Gretzky came into the NHL ( well, WHA first ) with a stacked team and put up insane numbers. Lemieux came into the NHL on a bottom feeding team that took years before they even became a contender.

while Gretzky was an insanely gifted playmaker and would have most likely not suffered much during the dead puck era - i highly doubt the same can be said about his goalscoring.

and when you come down to the meat of it, with everything that has happened to Lemieux - the only difference is a measly 0.04 PPG difference between the two.

i've seen both play a lot growing up and Lemieux was just on another level to me. he was tall, had a great reach, could at a turn of a dime just burn a defender, he could score from anywhere even during the dead puck era while carrying 2-3 guys on him ( hell, we've seen him score one-handed )...

if he had been able to be healthier, i know without a doubt he would have broken a lot of Gretzky's records.
99% of the arguments for Mario and against Wayne are all based on that one word.
Forget the IF and I'll take #99 over 99% any day.

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