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Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You

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Old
04-19-2013, 07:52 PM
  #801
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Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember my once deeply reviled arch nemeses (Wings fan here).




In the new realignment being implemented for next season, they will be in the Central grouping and thus Western Conference.

I know, I meant, the Jets played in a less then perfect section for them. I should've specify.

Same could apply for the Nordiques.

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04-19-2013, 08:01 PM
  #802
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The thing that still gets me about QC is the recently approved realignment. Do they just tell Detroit the deal is off and back to the Western Conf with them?
Detroit actually voted for the NHL's 2011 proposed alignment. Move Colorado to the Pacific, Detroit+Columbus to the Central (I mean CTZ here), and slot QC into Northeast, and you get something very close to the 2011 alignment. That's what SHOULD happen. I think what will happen is...
  • 2013-2014 season... "pull a Winnipeg"; i.e. QC in Pacific, due to lack of time to adjust
  • 2014-2015 season... QC and Colorado will swap divisions. Actually better for Colorado, and QC will be only playing 1 hour later on local TV for road games
  • 2015-2016 season (or maybe 2016-2017)... an expansion franchise in Seattle

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04-19-2013, 08:08 PM
  #803
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Nope, he is still afraid that the $20 million is HRR.
Nope! I'm thinking, Bettman being a lawyer, he's wondering or has already or previously determined that if the NHL takes the overly generous management fee, it could be argued the NHL was in fact complicit in breaking the Arizona gift clause law by knowing or should have knowing what the law is and what the industry management standard is / was (and, adding for a bit of humour, taking advantage of a supposedly uninformed CoG clown-cil). This considering the CoG has already admitted they may be paying $6.5 million in the upcoming AMA with whatever arena management company puts in a bid.

If the AMA comes in at $6.5 million plus or minus say 250K, GWI could step in and say that everyone involved knew that the annual $25 million AMA cost over the past 2 years was in fact an enoumous gift. By not taking the $25 million for year 2, the average NHL management fee would drop to only $12.5 million per year over the two years, still over the $6.5 CoG believes they may be paying but a bit more easily explained away.....

And if that's the case what recourse would the CoC have against Skeete, Beasley, the mayor and those councillors who voted for the AMA which was approximately 400% over industry standard or 200% if the NHL decides not to take advantage of the misinformed?

So..... even if and when the hockey part of this most excellent reality show ends, there should be a thread on the legal proceedings that may take place....


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04-19-2013, 11:07 PM
  #804
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Real dumb question here TL... but why would Westgate need parking garages beyond really the convenience of locale? As in the garage, a multi-tiered affair, like a wedding cake, a maze that would still take you forever to find your car?. Its not like the Sonoran Deserts like the Sahara with Sand Genies, like in Hidalgo or the Brendan Fraser Mummy movies and sand storms. Faces & everything. Why dont they just build lots on all that vacant land surrounding the joint? Doesnt make any sense to me. $25M for a frikin "garage" in the desert? Why bother? Just grade & pave the desert. Like, is there a problem with snakes and spitting gila monsters or something?
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Jumping chollas. Now those things are nasty.
Nyah..... biggest pest in these parts are bark scorpions.



They're everywhere and get into everything.

Killy.... Westgate is barely a quarter the size of its original plan. At full build-out all that land around it would have something built on it. All the other plots of land surrounding Westgate we also destined for development. So parking garages would definitely been required in the end.

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04-19-2013, 11:46 PM
  #805
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The thing that still gets me about QC is the recently approved realignment. Do they just tell Detroit the deal is off and back to the Western Conf with them?
This is what baffles me too.

Detroit has lobbied long and hard to move to the Eastern Conference. Columbus has competed with Detroit in that too.

I would have thought QC would be the logical destination for the Coyotes in the immediate future: most likely next season, or at worst the season after that. If that were the case, the current realignment makes absolutely no sense.

So, if the NHL were to move the Coyotes to QC, how would they go about putting the Genie back in the bottle in one of Detroit or Columbus?

Doesn't the NHL have enough old problems without making up new problems too?

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that the Coyotes to QC is not nearly as likely nor imminent as I thought it had been.

Not seeing a lot of other options either. I really am completely lost and don't know what to think here.

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04-20-2013, 12:38 AM
  #806
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This is what baffles me too.

Detroit has lobbied long and hard to move to the Eastern Conference. Columbus has competed with Detroit in that too.

I would have thought QC would be the logical destination for the Coyotes in the immediate future: most likely next season, or at worst the season after that. If that were the case, the current realignment makes absolutely no sense.

So, if the NHL were to move the Coyotes to QC, how would they go about putting the Genie back in the bottle in one of Detroit or Columbus?

Doesn't the NHL have enough old problems without making up new problems too?

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that the Coyotes to QC is not nearly as likely nor imminent as I thought it had been.

Not seeing a lot of other options either. I really am completely lost and don't know what to think here.
It's simple: the decision on realingment had nothing to do with the decision on relocation!

These are two different problems.

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04-20-2013, 12:44 AM
  #807
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Nyah..... biggest pest in these parts are bark scorpions.

They're everywhere and get into everything.
Including parking garages.

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Originally Posted by Mork View Post
This is what baffles me too.

Detroit has lobbied long and hard to move to the Eastern Conference. Columbus has competed with Detroit in that too.

I would have thought QC would be the logical destination for the Coyotes in the immediate future: most likely next season, or at worst the season after that. If that were the case, the current realignment makes absolutely no sense.

So, if the NHL were to move the Coyotes to QC, how would they go about putting the Genie back in the bottle in one of Detroit or Columbus?

Doesn't the NHL have enough old problems without making up new problems too?

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that the Coyotes to QC is not nearly as likely nor imminent as I thought it had been.

Not seeing a lot of other options either. I really am completely lost and don't know what to think here.
I think they stay put, or it's Seattle.

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04-20-2013, 01:03 AM
  #808
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Nyah..... biggest pest in these parts are bark scorpions.
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Including parking garages.
Ya, see, Fugu's got a point there. Youd get Scorpions, Gilas', Copperheads, Jackalopes, Cholla's & Sonoran Cryptids wandering into those garages seeking & then hidden by the shade. You'd very easily step right on any one of them having a snooze, and that right there my friend is when the screaming really begins.... now, I do understand that all that vacant land was earmarked for buildout but in the interim, Id be inclined to pave some of it for parking.

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04-20-2013, 01:11 AM
  #809
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RE: realignment: maybe the nhl is good with a lame duck season next year and then relocation can coincide with expansion, evening things out a bit?

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04-20-2013, 01:17 AM
  #810
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Ya? A short way of saying you actually went to a school that didnt have barbed wire & Guards armed with Tasers unlike the Grifters involved with Beacon. Even at the hyper-inflated rate of 275 bucks an hour for some kid still reeking of Sunlight Soap & the playing grounds of PS123 how do you justify not only that rate but for the Love of God near on $2K an hour for Beacons' Branzoids?... You cant. So whats your point aqib? That the Worlds so ***** up that companies like PWC in setting an insane precedent, that Flim Flammers like Beacon should just replicate that model? Does that make it right? Everythings normal, just all Hunky-Dory?.
The point is simple. When you hire consultants to do something that you can't do in house its really freaking expensive. Same occurs when you hire a mechanic, lawyer, doctor, etc. Heck why are arenas so expensive? Its not just steel and concrete that you are paying for. Its the architects, construction managers, bankers to underwrite the bonds, etc.

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04-20-2013, 03:07 AM
  #811
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This is what baffles me too.

Detroit has lobbied long and hard to move to the Eastern Conference. Columbus has competed with Detroit in that too.

I would have thought QC would be the logical destination for the Coyotes in the immediate future: most likely next season, or at worst the season after that. If that were the case, the current realignment makes absolutely no sense.

So, if the NHL were to move the Coyotes to QC, how would they go about putting the Genie back in the bottle in one of Detroit or Columbus?

Doesn't the NHL have enough old problems without making up new problems too?

The only logical conclusion I can draw is that the Coyotes to QC is not nearly as likely nor imminent as I thought it had been.

Not seeing a lot of other options either. I really am completely lost and don't know what to think here.
I think the point of the realignment is that there will be 16 teams in the east. That (at the moment) means Detroit in the east.

When Detroit gets bumped back West they at least have a better schedule than before.

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04-20-2013, 07:02 AM
  #812
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I think the point of the realignment is that there will be 16 teams in the east. That (at the moment) means Detroit in the east.

When Detroit gets bumped back West they at least have a better schedule than before.
I think once PHX gets settled and the plan to 32 teams gets unveiled. I think the league going back to the 4 conference aligment that the board approved December of 2011.

With 32 seats it will actually makes sense, so when you add QC bumping Detroit over won't be an issue with them since they'll be in a 'central/mid west' conference as opposed to the 'west'.

if you need to move the Yotes to QC (assuming Seattle falls through), something crazy such as a QC, Col divisional swap, or a 17-13 split could be arranged since expansion can be brought uo making this look temporary.

Waiting for the next shoe to drop....

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04-20-2013, 08:20 AM
  #813
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COYOTES END OF SEASON WATCH:

I believe that the Coyotes' playoff hopes could be dead as early as Monday night. Reason: Regulation losses to Chicago and Detroit would leave them 3 games remaining, and a 50 point max. Should Detroit defeat Vancouver tonight, and Columbus defeat San Jose tomorrow, both of those teams would then have 51 points.

So, the countdown begins.....

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04-20-2013, 08:23 AM
  #814
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I think once PHX gets settled and the plan to 32 teams gets unveiled. I think the league going back to the 4 conference aligment that the board approved December of 2011.

With 32 seats it will actually makes sense, so when you add QC bumping Detroit over won't be an issue with them since they'll be in a 'central/mid west' conference as opposed to the 'west'.

if you need to move the Yotes to QC (assuming Seattle falls through), something crazy such as a QC, Col divisional swap, or a 17-13 split could be arranged since expansion can be brought uo making this look temporary.

Waiting for the next shoe to drop....
MG -
I know I am advocating my own theory here, but PHX > QC and then swap them to the CTZ division and put COL in the MTZ/PTZ division makes the most sense for a temp arrangement. It would make more sense than Winnipeg playing in the SE for 2 years.

I agree with the poster who said that realignment and what to do with the Coyotes are 2 separate issues, and one should not read anything into the Yotes future from the alignment.

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04-20-2013, 09:23 AM
  #815
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Nyah..... biggest pest in these parts are bark scorpions.



They're everywhere and get into everything.

Killy.... Westgate is barely a quarter the size of its original plan. At full build-out all that land around it would have something built on it. All the other plots of land surrounding Westgate we also destined for development. So parking garages would definitely been required in the end.
Interesting. Maybe that's why I never quite understood the big fuss about spending so much money to "save Westgate". To me, it just looked like a dozen bars and restaurants, a movie theater and a few small retail stores. I was puzzled how that collection of businesses could ever come close to support a $25 million annual subsidy to the Coyotes (via the CFD). I was also puzzled as to why the COG would commit over $300 million to preserve that small cluster of businesses.

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04-20-2013, 10:42 AM
  #816
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... now, I do understand that all that vacant land was earmarked for buildout but in the interim, Id be inclined to pave some of it for parking.
Some Westgate perspective: The center corridor is completed, exception being the four additional office complexes, north of the movie theatres. The other perimeter projects have pretty much failed.

Where Tanger Outlets are (westside), there was suppose to be two anchor stores, restaurants and a hotel. There is 'paved parking' (northeast corner) for the 'loss' of parking, due to Tanger, for the Cardinals. That area was suppose to be a grocery store with another anchor store/hotel, and more restaurants.

The one of the three projected office complexes built (eastside) sits empty.

The Coyotes staying are the least of Glendale's worries.

Be seeing you!

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04-20-2013, 10:48 AM
  #817
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Interesting. Maybe that's why I never quite understood the big fuss about spending so much money to "save Westgate" ... I was also puzzled as to why the COG would commit over $300 million to preserve that small cluster of businesses.
The "save Westgate" stuff is just more mindless hyperbole from the mountain of excrement produced by the city on the Coyotes subsidy.

There is simply no evidence that arenas are economic engines to begin with. The seminar at Marquette that generated the Leipold quote offered even more academic research showing that "public financing of sports facilities never generates an economic return". The study " ... failed to uncover a single case of a professional sports team boosting its host community's economy."

Of course, these academic studies are in conflict with the reports produced by consultants that project huge economic gains from teams. But then again, no academic researcher has ever been brought up on federal fraud charges for intentionally misrepresenting arena returns. Whereas, Glendale consultant Tom L Hocking has.

However, from a political perspective, working with a pro sports franchise equals headlines, trips to NYC, and networking with millionaires. As long as you have the moral flexibility of an Ed Beasley and you are spending someone else's money to do it, there's probably some appeal to that. There's no dinner in Manhattan for keeping the public library open...

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04-20-2013, 10:53 AM
  #818
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Some Westgate perspective: The center corridor is completed, exception being the four additional office complexes, north of the movie theatres. The other perimeter projects have pretty much failed.

Where Tanger Outlets are (westside), there was suppose to be two anchor stores, restaurants and a hotel. There is 'paved parking' (northeast corner) for the 'loss' of parking, due to Tanger, for the Cardinals. That area was suppose to be a grocery store with another anchor store/hotel, and more restaurants.

The one of the three projected office complexes built (eastside) sits empty.

The Coyotes staying are the least of Glendale's worries.

Be seeing you!
This make dumping so much money even more of a stupid idea. I never heard of a city willing to throw so much money after a bad private investment before. Usually when something this ridiculous take place somebody got seriously greased. Either directly or indirectly.

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04-20-2013, 11:12 AM
  #819
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Interesting. Maybe that's why I never quite understood the big fuss about spending so much money to "save Westgate". To me, it just looked like a dozen bars and restaurants, a movie theater and a few small retail stores. I was puzzled how that collection of businesses could ever come close to support a $25 million annual subsidy to the Coyotes (via the CFD). I was also puzzled as to why the COG would commit over $300 million to preserve that small cluster of businesses.
Ya, the Sports Mecca & Shopping Strategy, following in the pattern of what urban planners & sociologists refer to as Edge Cities called for just over 8,000,000 sq ft of retail & commercial space. In 2006 when it opened, Phase 1, only 510,000 sq ft had been developed with Phase 2 never being implemented which would have added another 500,000+ sq ft to its overall footprint of app 230 acres. No idea where it sits now what with Tanger's new superstore however as that addition falls outside of the primary blueprints anyway rather moot. Ellman was being fined by the COG each & every month that he'd fallen behind of course, and unlike most major developments of this nature whereby its backed by heavy hitters & investors, Ellmans primary source of funding was Jerry Moyes, and of course he'd roped in Credit Suisse & iStar Financial. The former providing credit facilities to the tune of $500M, iStar I believe somewhere in the $200M range. I could carry on & on & go right back to the building of the UofP Stadium & the Bidwells etc, but you get the picture. Nowhere near what was planned, promised.

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04-20-2013, 11:24 AM
  #820
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The "save Westgate" stuff is just more mindless hyperbole from the mountain of excrement produced by the city on the Coyotes subsidy.

There is simply no evidence that arenas are economic engines to begin with. The seminar at Marquette that generated the Leipold quote offered even more academic research showing that "public financing of sports facilities never generates an economic return". The study " ... failed to uncover a single case of a professional sports team boosting its host community's economy."

Of course, these academic studies are in conflict with the reports produced by consultants that project huge economic gains from teams. But then again, no academic researcher has ever been brought up on federal fraud charges for intentionally misrepresenting arena returns. Whereas, Glendale consultant Tom L Hocking has.

However, from a political perspective, working with a pro sports franchise equals headlines, trips to NYC, and networking with millionaires. As long as you have the moral flexibility of an Ed Beasley and you are spending someone else's money to do it, there's probably some appeal to that. There's no dinner in Manhattan for keeping the public library open...
To piggyback on what CF said, I encourage people to read Chaper 12 in Soccernomics if they want more information on the economic impact of stadiums and arenas. The biggest reason why they don't generate the expected economic impact is that people don't go to areas surrounding the sports venues unless there is an event. If Jobing.com Arena is open for an event 65 nights a year, what is the surrounding area doing the other 300 nights a year? It's not getting the needed customers, that's for sure. A good anchor tenant, like a department store, will draw people in every day. A restaurant or the other stores need a consistent flow of customers to keep it's doors open. Restaurants may make most of their profit on Friday and Saturday, when most people go out to dinner, but it needs enough customers Sunday through Thursday to break even those days.

In addition, I see the master plan for Westgate was going to have some residential units. The problem with this is no one wants to live next to a sports venue. They bring in a lot noise and traffic on game nights. Generally, people want to be about 10-15 minutes away. Close to get there in a short time, far enough away that you don't have to deal with the noise and traffic if you aren't attending an event.

Now there are valid reasons to build sports venues for reasons that are more than economic. Modern sports venues bring better events and experiences to a local area that wouldn't happen without the sports venue. For example, someone may not be a sports fan, but they may still use the sports venue to go to a concert, a circus, etc. But those other reasons don't apply to Glendale either. The people of Glendale already had the US Airways Center to experience those sorts of events.

I can remember a quote from someone on the COG that they weren't expecting the arena to break even when it first opened. But it was supposed to spur economic development for the area. It just seems to me that Westgate was a poorly envisioned concept from the beginning and it's failure so far shouldn't come as a surprise.


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04-20-2013, 12:23 PM
  #821
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In addition, I see the master plan for Westgate was going to have some residential units. The problem with this is no one wants to live next to a sports venue. They bring in a lot noise and traffic on game nights. Generally, people want to be about 10-15 minutes away. Close to get there in a short time, far enough away that you don't have to deal with the noise and traffic if you aren't attending an event.
Yes this is very true. The other problem you have is that the Valley itself is over-saturated with shopping mall destinations most with considerably more offerings, while Glendale already has one in Arrowhead which for the size of the place is actually ample. Westgate itself is completely disconnected from Main Street, which pretty much emptied of independent retailers & service providers from the 60's onward when malls were going up everywhere & shopping habits changed. Ellman sold Westgate to Glendale as the "New City Centre", promising a Scottsdale like shopping destination, up-scale, major league sports as the anchor and with UofP Stadium already on the books not a hard sell. As CasualFan notes, the benefits of stadium & or arena development subsidized by the public sector are negligible to non-existent, here a glaring example of just how badly it can go all wrong.

Had Glendale gotten creative, intelligent, they could have mapped out a far more attractive future for themselves based on their formerly agrarian communal roots from Main Street on out. Most of these Edge Cities combining sports & shopping destinations are based on the development in Irvine CA back in the late 50's through the 60's, one of the anchors there being the University of California at Irvine. You had/have considerable wealth already pre-existant in Orange County. In a place like Glendale, you dont have that, yet sardonically, you have Bidwells and the University of Phoenix Stadium as if to somehow intimate that Glendale is convenient to any of their campuses, a town of academia not unlike Irvine or say an Ann Arbour. Bidwell's did in fact have plans mapped out for a massive single family home development with golf courses, pools, schools, the whole 9 yards called Sportsmans Park. So ya, extensive residential was forecast, planned to be taking place.

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04-20-2013, 12:30 PM
  #822
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This make dumping so much money even more of a stupid idea. I never heard of a city willing to throw so much money after a bad private investment before. Usually when something this ridiculous take place somebody got seriously greased. Either directly or indirectly.
Yeah, that's the elephant in the room. I too have a feeling that there are a few Swiss bank accounts that have been filled in this whole mess.

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04-20-2013, 12:49 PM
  #823
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The point is simple. When you hire consultants to do something that you can't do in house its really freaking expensive. Same occurs when you hire a mechanic, lawyer, doctor, etc. Heck why are arenas so expensive? Its not just steel and concrete that you are paying for. Its the architects, construction managers, bankers to underwrite the bonds, etc.
No, its not that "simple". I've personally got over 3 decades worth of working as a "Consultant" under my belt. Dealing with primarily entertainment but so too some sports properties and Im talking serious stuff, global, big stages. I dont need to be lectured by you or anyone else as to what constitutes "reasonable fee structures", be it venue assessment, marketing, legal. Sure Im aware of others in my industry grossly over-charging, bad apples everywhere, in every sector. I suppose I could triple, quadruple my rates for whatever. Just sit around in a Fez smoking a Hookah all day & wait for the phone to ring. Not.... I sometimes wonder if


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04-20-2013, 12:51 PM
  #824
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In addition, I see the master plan for Westgate was going to have some residential units. The problem with this is no one wants to live next to a sports venue. They bring in a lot noise and traffic on game nights. Generally, people want to be about 10-15 minutes away. Close to get there in a short time, far enough away that you don't have to deal with the noise and traffic if you aren't attending an event.

Now there are valid reasons to build sports venues for reasons that are more than economic. Modern sports venues bring better events and experiences to a local area that wouldn't happen without the sports venue. For example, someone may not be a sports fan, but they may still use the sports venue to go to a concert, a circus, etc. But those other reasons don't apply to Glendale either. The people of Glendale already had the US Airways Center to experience those sorts of events.
I wouldn't say "no one" in Toronto apartments around the Air Canada Centre are pretty pricey. My cousin has a place in Maple Leaf square right next door to the arena, and I kid her and her husband that they paid a huge premium for that location vs places a few blocks away and neither of them is a sports fan.

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04-20-2013, 12:57 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
I wouldn't say "no one" in Toronto apartments around the Air Canada Centre are pretty pricey. My cousin has a place in Maple Leaf square right next door to the arena, and I kid her and her husband that they paid a huge premium for that location vs places a few blocks away and neither of them is a sports fan.
Perhaps I should say no one would want to do that in a suburban environment. Wrigleyville in Chicago is another example of people willing to deal with the problems of living near a ballpark. People would be willing to do it in a trendy part of the city, mostly because the traffic and noise isn't going to have a big difference on a game day versus a non game day.

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