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Bozak commanding over 5 million

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Old
04-20-2013, 09:48 AM
  #501
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Zack Smith can skate just as well as Bozak, is better defensively and is much better at cycling the puck. Would you pay him anywhere near five million?

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04-20-2013, 09:49 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Who would you rather centering our first line?
-Grabovski for more money than Bozak??
-The under-sized and under-experienced Nazem Kadri??
-Stephen Weiss, who's going to cost substantially more, coming off a major injury, with no guarantee that he wants to be here.
-Joe Colborne??!

You pay a guy a certain amount of money because it's better for your team to pay him that kind of money than to not have him, end of story.
We're clearly not in a position to let him go but if he truly wants $5M per year then offer him that on a 1 year deal and keep searching for a replacement. If he wants more years, the AAV should be going down with every year added. And if he doesn't agree to those terms then let him friggin' go.

I honestly don't think the guys you mentioned would do much worse. I mean, all they need to do is win faceoffs and hustle. Putting up half the PPG as your elite linemates shouldn't be too difficult. Clearly you can see that I don't think very high of Bozak. Maybe you'd like to provide me an argument as to why he's a legit top-6 threat without basis of that argument being chemistry?

My worry is that keeping Bozak around long-term, at a top-6 centers price, is just making sure the Leafs remain mediocre. I'd feel really comfortable betting that Bozak will never be a top-6 center on a championship caliber team. So, do fans want Toronto to become a championship team or do they want them to be a playoff bubble team?

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04-20-2013, 09:50 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Zack Smith can skate just as well as Bozak, is better defensively and is much better at cycling the puck. Would you pay him anywhere near five million?
It's about more than skating, it's about being able to keep up with him in terms of puck skills as well, and that's sorely lacking.

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04-20-2013, 09:51 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Zack Smith can skate just as well as Bozak, is better defensively and is much better at cycling the puck. Would you pay him anywhere near five million?
Good comparison.

Would anyone want to pay him $5M dollars? Thereby ensuring his role on your team is that of a $5M dollar player for the foreseeable future? Thats a grim future if you ask me.

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04-20-2013, 09:52 AM
  #505
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But Kessel doesn't need a puck skill center. He needs a mucker/grinder.

Edit: And I don't think you're giving Smith enough credit. He's a very solid third line center.

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04-20-2013, 09:55 AM
  #506
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
It's about more than skating, it's about being able to keep up with him in terms of puck skills as well, and that's sorely lacking.
Except Bozak doesn't actually have much puck skills.. 29 assists (career high) on a line where his wingers scored in excess of 60 goals doesn't scream playmaker, and a roughly 16 goal average while spending lots of time on the PP doesn't scream goal-scorer either. He's always fumbling passes as well.

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04-20-2013, 09:57 AM
  #507
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
We're clearly not in a position to let him go but if he truly wants $5M per year then offer him that on a 1 year deal and keep searching for a replacement. If he wants more years, the AAV should be going down with every year added. And if he doesn't agree to those terms then let him friggin' go.

I honestly don't think the guys you mentioned would do much worse. I mean, all they need to do is win faceoffs and hustle. Putting up half the PPG as your elite linemates shouldn't be too difficult. Clearly you can see that I don't think very high of Bozak. Maybe you'd like to provide me an argument as to why he's a legit top-6 threat without basis of that argument being chemistry?

My worry is that keeping Bozak around long-term, at a top-6 centers price, is just making sure the Leafs remain mediocre. I'd feel really comfortable betting that Bozak will never be a top-6 center on a championship caliber team. So, do fans want Toronto to become a championship team or do they want them to be a playoff bubble team?
Ok, but what if he wants $5m on a multi-year deal, and has the market demand to support it? What do we do then, trade Kessel and go back into rebuilding???

The guys I mentioned would do much worse. Kadri is terrible on draws, and not much better than Kessel in the corners. The line would spend substantially less time in the offensive zone, and that's already their biggest problem. According to our coach, Grabovski is a substantially inferior linemate to Kessel, and he makes more money with 4 years remaining. Colborne is nowhere near ready, if he's ever going to be, to take on such a role.

Bozak isn't an offensive threat. He's a guy who facilitates Kessel and JvR being offensive threats. In a perfect world, it would be nice to get a guy who can do that and be an offensive threat himself, but that just isn't available to us. We've gotta work with what we have.

I'd be worried about the Leafs being mediocre if they give Bozak $5m for multiple years, but I'm a lot more worried about the Leafs being terrible, further perpetuating the culture of losers in Toronto, because they weren't prepared to keep their #1 centre at fair market value.

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04-20-2013, 09:57 AM
  #508
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Even factoring in the overpayment of most UFA's 5 million a year for Bozak is way over the top. Only reason i think he could be deemed worth even close to this much by his agent is the overpayment of Grabo and the contract Travis Zajac just got. I like Bozak, but he's basically been the Leafs version of Steve Rucchin.

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04-20-2013, 09:57 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
But Kessel doesn't need a puck skill center. He needs a mucker/grinder.

Edit: And I don't think you're giving Smith enough credit. He's a very solid third line center.
Exactly right. For that reason Bozak fits. He wins faceoffs and puts in an honest effort cycling the puck down low.

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04-20-2013, 09:58 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
But Kessel doesn't need a puck skill center. He needs a mucker/grinder.

Edit: And I don't think you're giving Smith enough credit. He's a very solid third line center.
He needs somebody who can do both.

Smith is a solid 3rd line C, that doesn't mean he has any business centering somebody like Kessel on a team's top line.

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04-20-2013, 10:00 AM
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Ok, but what if he wants $5m on a multi-year deal, and has the market demand to support it? What do we do then, trade Kessel and go back into rebuilding???

The guys I mentioned would do much worse. Kadri is terrible on draws, and not much better than Kessel in the corners. The line would spend substantially less time in the offensive zone, and that's already their biggest problem. According to our coach, Grabovski is a substantially inferior linemate to Kessel, and he makes more money with 4 years remaining. Colborne is nowhere near ready, if he's ever going to be, to take on such a role.

Bozak isn't an offensive threat. He's a guy who facilitates Kessel and JvR being offensive threats. In a perfect world, it would be nice to get a guy who can do that and be an offensive threat himself, but that just isn't available to us. We've gotta work with what we have.

I'd be worried about the Leafs being mediocre if they give Bozak $5m for multiple years, but I'm a lot more worried about the Leafs being terrible, further perpetuating the culture of losers in Toronto, because they weren't prepared to keep their #1 centre at fair market value.
Someone could offer me $15,000 for my 97 Ford Explorer. That would mean the market demand is there.

It doesn't mean someone should offer me $15,000 for a 97 Ford Explorer when he could acquire another for $2,500.

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04-20-2013, 10:02 AM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He needs somebody who can do both.

Smith is a solid 3rd line C, that doesn't mean he has any business centering somebody like Kessel on a team's top line.
Neither does Bozak. That's my entire point. Patrick Kane is killing it this year despite having a struggling Bolland and a revolving door of bottom six centers playing as his pivot.

If you want a player with Bozak's skillset to play on your first line, they can be acquired for a HELL of a lot less then five million per.

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04-20-2013, 10:04 AM
  #513
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Ok, but what if he wants $5m on a multi-year deal, and has the market demand to support it? What do we do then, trade Kessel and go back into rebuilding???

The guys I mentioned would do much worse. Kadri is terrible on draws, and not much better than Kessel in the corners. The line would spend substantially less time in the offensive zone, and that's already their biggest problem. According to our coach, Grabovski is a substantially inferior linemate to Kessel, and he makes more money with 4 years remaining. Colborne is nowhere near ready, if he's ever going to be, to take on such a role.

Bozak isn't an offensive threat. He's a guy who facilitates Kessel and JvR being offensive threats. In a perfect world, it would be nice to get a guy who can do that and be an offensive threat himself, but that just isn't available to us. We've gotta work with what we have.

I'd be worried about the Leafs being mediocre if they give Bozak $5m for multiple years, but I'm a lot more worried about the Leafs being terrible, further perpetuating the culture of losers in Toronto, because they weren't prepared to keep their #1 centre at fair market value.
That's fair. I don't disagree with you, except when arguing about how far a step back the Leafs would take if they let Bozak walk. I'm not subscribing to the idea that that Leafs will get much worse without Bozak for all the reasons I've previously listed - I don't think he's all that good to begin with. This might sound a little extreme but I do believe that Jay McClement could provide the same attributes Bozak currently provides to the 1st line.

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04-20-2013, 10:04 AM
  #514
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Someone could offer me $15,000 for my 97 Ford Explorer. That would mean the market demand is there.

It doesn't mean someone should offer me $15,000 for a 97 Ford Explorer when he could acquire another for $2,500.
Therein lies the crux of the arguement. The only way Tyler Bozak is able to demand $5m once UFA hits is if teams cannot acquire a comparable centre for less.

From Toronto's perspective, the next best alternative to Bozak is Mikhail Grabovski, who's paid more and an inferior player for our purposes...and as long as Bozak makes less, he's likely going to be our best alternative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Neither does Bozak. That's my entire point. Patrick Kane is killing it this year despite having a struggling Bolland and a revolving door of bottom six centers playing as his pivot.

If you want a player with Bozak's skillset to play on your first line, they can be acquired for a HELL of a lot less then five million per.
If it could be, Bozak could be acquired for a hell of a lot less than $5m per.

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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
That's fair. I don't disagree with you, except when arguing about how far a step back the Leafs would take if they let Bozak walk. I'm not subscribing to the idea that that Leafs will get much worse without Bozak for all the reasons I've previously listed - I don't think he's all that good to begin with. This might sound a little extreme but I do believe that Jay McClement could provide the same attributes Bozak currently provides to the 1st line.
Wow... Jay McClement has no business in a top 6 role even on a temporary basis, nevermind full time.

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04-20-2013, 10:12 AM
  #515
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Wow... Jay McClement has no business in a top 6 role even on a temporary basis, nevermind full time.
Yes, I know. Neither does Bozak! Thats the point I'm trying to make. They're both bottom-6 players, except that McClement is probably better than Bozak

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04-20-2013, 10:14 AM
  #516
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Yes, I know. Neither does Bozak! Thats the point I'm trying to make. They're both bottom-6 players, except that McClement is probably better than Bozak
The stats suggest otherwise. His line has a goal per game, and it's the top line of a team with a top 5 offence. Could they be better? Absolutely. There's massive consistency and puck possession issues... but there isn't a centre available to us that is likely to help that.

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04-20-2013, 10:17 AM
  #517
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The stats suggest otherwise. His line has a goal per game, and it's the top line of a team with a top 5 offence.
Now we're just spinning our wheels.

Those numbers are indicative of how good his linemates are, and the scoring depth that the team has, not how good Bozak is.

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04-20-2013, 10:18 AM
  #518
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He is worth $3.5 mil. If he wants $5+ mil, he can go **** himself. He's a 3rd line centre on a lot of teams, and should be paid like one. There is absolutely no way we should pay him anything close to $5 mil per year, that would clearly be a TERRIBLE contract.

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04-20-2013, 10:19 AM
  #519
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..thats why we're discussing the merit of Bozie earning $5M in the first place

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04-20-2013, 10:19 AM
  #520
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Now we're just spinning our wheels.

Those numbers are indicative of how good his linemates are, and the scoring depth that the team has, not how good Bozak is.
Those numbers are indicative of how the line has performed as a collective. If you're offering a suggestion as to who the Leafs can replace Bozak with to be more effective, or similarily effective for less money, I'm all ears.

Zack Smith and his career high of 26 points is not a reasonable solution, nor is Jay McClement and his career high of 36 points 6 years ago. BTW, why are we talking about Zack Smith anyways? He's under contract for the next 4 years.


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04-20-2013, 10:27 AM
  #521
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Zack Smith can skate just as well as Bozak, is better defensively and is much better at cycling the puck. Would you pay him anywhere near five million?
Eye test folks. Eye test...

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04-20-2013, 10:29 AM
  #522
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Those numbers are indicative of how the line has performed as a collective. If you're offering a suggestion as to who the Leafs can replace Bozak with to be more effective, or similarily effective for less money, I'm all ears.

Zack Smith and his career high of 26 points is not a reasonable solution, nor is Jay McClement and his career high of 36 points 6 years ago.
Tyler Bozak has a career high of 47 points and would likely never have eclipsed 35 if he wasn't playing with elite linemates.

Antropov, Cullen and Weiss are all free agents and would likely be similiarly, if not more, effective as Bozak. Come to think of it, I would welcome Matt Cullen onto this team if Bozak demanded $5M per year on a long-term deal and Cullen could come at a price of, say, $3.5M over two years.

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04-20-2013, 10:33 AM
  #523
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Tyler Bozak has a career high of 47 points and would likely never have eclipsed 35 if he wasn't playing with elite linemates.

Antropov, Cullen and Weiss are all free agents and would likely be similiarly, if not more, effective as Bozak. Come to think of it, I would welcome Matt Cullen onto this team if Bozak demanded $5M per year on a long-term deal and Cullen could come at a price of, say, $3.5M over two years.
Based on what?? Bozak's sample size away from Kessel, and the top defensive matchups, is non-existent. If he wasn't playing with elite linemates, he wouldn't have been facing the top defensive matchups.

We've been through the Antropov crap already. He still can't skate properly. Weiss is going to cost more than Bozak (if he even becomes available). Cullen has been on a steady decline the last few years, is inferior to Bozak at this point in his career, doesn't fit at all into our team, and does a real nice job of writing Kessel's 1-way ticket out of town. $1.5m more for Bozak is a no-brainer, and we'll worry about the length of the contract in a couple of years when he's only got 1 or 2 left.

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04-20-2013, 10:34 AM
  #524
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Curious.

Does anyone want to guess which NHL team would pay this guy $5 million?

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04-20-2013, 10:36 AM
  #525
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Curious.

Does anyone want to guess which NHL team would pay this guy $5 million?
Toronto, for one.

When the next best alternative is Mikhail Grabovski for more money and lesser performance on the top line, it's a real no-brainer.

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