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The Carey Price Discussion Thread (part 2)

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:12 AM
  #401
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Here's the numbers as it was last week, he was tied for 6th. Quick qualified btw, Price was better. Rinne also qualified...

Hillier and Halak have barely been starters.


Goalies since 07-08 with 275 games played minimum:

Vokoun .921
Rinne .920
Lundqvist .920
Luongo .919
Backstrom .918
Price .916 (tied)
Miller .916 (tied)
Still... why 275 and since 2007-2008 (Rookie season of Price) it take out Niemi, Howard, Halak, Hiller. Of course taking the highest number of GP Possible that include Price will be at his advantage.

I could choose to set the minimum at 600 career GP and say that Nabokov is among the top 5 and Theodore 6th.

And why Thomas isnt there? he didnt retire yet.

What about Anderson and Quick?

do you know the meaning of chery picking? Because your posted example look like a good definition of it.

Well, my other issue is: there are a lot of other goalie between .910 and .915%

a .001-005% difference mean somewhere between 2-12 goals allowed over a complete season and doesn't warrant a 6 500 000$ contract. Better to invests the money elsewhere: A 6 500 000$ forward/defenseman are in average more dominant vs average player than 6 500 000$ goalie vs average goalie.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-21-2013 at 12:20 AM.
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Old
04-21-2013, 12:13 AM
  #402
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How about this trade proposition:

To Montreal
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Jeff Petry

To Edmonton
Carey Price

To Montreal
Jonathan Bernier

To Los Angeles
Dustin Tokarski
Louis Leblanc

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:15 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

Quick has had one great season though. That's it. He's older and he's played less games. No doubt he played out of his mind last season but overall Price plays more and has had better numbers.

At least until this week anyway..
If you say Quick had one great season, then you can say Price had one good season. They have the same career save %. Both are having dreadful seasons. One has a good reason for it though.

He doesn't have better numbers.

Also Price is 11th for save % amongst active goalies with more than 200 games played. You can't say he's top 5 unless you cherry pick insanely in between a certain period of time and a hugely arbitrary number of games played.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:19 AM
  #404
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I do like Price, and I think Price is much better than what he has been in the last few weeks. But fact is fact:

Habs is one of the top team but Price ranks:
- 40th in GAA
- 48th in SV%

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:22 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
If you say Quick had one great season, then you can say Price had one good season. They have the same career save %. Both are having dreadful seasons. One has a good reason for it though.

He doesn't have better numbers.

Also Price is 11th for save % amongst active goalies with more than 200 games played. You can't say he's top 5 unless you cherry pick insanely in between a certain period of time and a hugely arbitrary number of games played.
Not only has Price been consistently better, he's played far more games at a younger age. Quick was amazing last year and that's it.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:24 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Still... why 275 and since 2007-2008 (Rookie season of Price) it take out Niemi, Howard, Halak, Hiller. Of course taking the highest number of GP Possible that include Price will be at his advantage.

I could choose to set the minimum at 600 career GP and say that Nabokov is among the top 5 and Theodore 6th.

And why Thomas isnt there? he didnt retire yet.

What about Anderson and Quick?

do you know the meaning of chery picking?

Well, my other issue is: there are a lot of other goalie between .910 and .915%
The very definition of cherry picking.

The truth is that Price is not top 5. Not under any definition known to man.

Quote:
a .001-005% difference mean somewhere between 2-12 goals allowed over a complete season and doesn't warrant a 6 500 000$ contract. Better to invests the money elsewhere: A 6 500 000$ forward/defenseman are in average more dominant vs average player than 6 500 000$ goalie vs average goalie.
So true. The day that contract was announced I didn't understand it. Why did we bend over like this on both term and money ? If we're going to give him a 5-6 year deal, we should have gotten a big discount. But instead we paid a premium.. I don't get it at all. We just gave him everything. More than Quick !!! Absolutely mind boggling. We paid purely on potential.

It's true that amongst all active goalies in the top 15 in save%, he's the youngest with Quick being one year older. But I think, if anything, he's the one we should have insisted on another bridge deal with. Goalies are ridiculously flaky in their performances. I just wish we had been more careful with such a risky deal.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:26 AM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Not only has Price been consistently better, he's played far more games at a younger age. Quick was amazing last year and that's it.
You can stop with the younger age because Quick is only one year older.

Consistently better yet both have the same career save %.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:27 AM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Still... why 275 and since 2007-2008 (Rookie season of Price) it take out Niemi, Howard, Halak, Hiller. Of course taking the highest number of GP Possible that include Price will be at his advantage.

I could choose to set the minimum at 600 career GP and say that Nabokov is among the top 5 and Theodore 6th.

And why Thomas isnt there? he didnt retire yet.

What about Anderson and Quick?

do you know the meaning of chery picking? Because your posted example look like a good definition of it.

Well, my other issue is: there are a lot of other goalie between .910 and .915%

a .001-005% difference mean somewhere between 2-12 goals allowed over a complete season and doesn't warrant a 6 500 000$ contract. Better to invests the money elsewhere: A 6 500 000$ forward/defenseman are in average more dominant vs average player than 6 500 000$ goalie vs average goalie.
Again, Quick's save percentage was less than Price's (at least it was.) And he's played 277 games so he qualifies.

Craig Anderson has played more than 40 games in a season exactly once. He's a backup for the most part. That's why you put minimum games in dude. It's a hell of a lot harder to keep your save percentage up over the long haul. It's unfair to compare guys who are playing twice as many games to those who aren't starters.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:29 AM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
You can stop with the younger age because Quick is only one year older.
Why should we ignore this? Esp when you look at the games played...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Consistently better yet both have the same career save %.
Yes, consistently better. Again, when you have a year like Quick does it improves the overall number. On a year by year basis Price is better.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:33 AM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Why should we ignore this? Esp when you look at the games played...
1 year is not a big difference. Not at the age they both are at now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yes, consistently better. Again, when you have a year like Quick does it improves the overall number. On a year by year basis Price is better.
Price had a huge year that inflated his numbers as well.

The only difference is that Price's best season wasn't nearly as good as Quick's.

Basically the 2 main differences between the two is that Quick has shown he can do it in the playoffs. And he has shown he can elevate his game to a level Price has yet to attain.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:42 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Again, Quick's save percentage was less than Price's (at least it was.) And he's played 277 games so he qualifies.

Craig Anderson has played more than 40 games in a season exactly once. He's a backup for the most part. That's why you put minimum games in dude. It's a hell of a lot harder to keep your save percentage up over the long haul. It's unfair to compare guys who are playing twice as many games to those who aren't starters.
Why not at the end of the season taking all goalies with a minimum of 190gp, and calculate their saves% since 2008-2009 (past 5 years including this season).

I will tell you why not: it would exclude the good first season of Price in 2007-2008 and include the current bad season. Also more goalies would make the cut and Price would not be a top 5 anymore.

We have excellent reasons to use stats since 2007-2008, not include the past bad streak of Price, and make the cut at a minimum 275gp, because if we wouldn't, Price would not be in the top anymore.

Also what is your definition of "Exactly once"? Anderson played 71 games in 2009-2010, 51 in 2010-2011 and 63 in 2011-2012. And lead any other senators goalies this season with 21gp despite his injury. In my book he is a starter.

since 2009-2010 Anderson played 206 games, Price played 215 games. Anderson career saves% (.916) is similar to Price (.915). But for some obscure reason Anderson "is a backup for the most part." and Price is an elite top 5 starter. Well, i guess the explanation must be something about our defense.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-21-2013 at 01:01 AM.
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Old
04-21-2013, 12:42 AM
  #412
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He is not this bad and hopefully he recovers by the playoffs.

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Old
04-21-2013, 01:20 AM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I think you're wrong
He cherry picks stats to prove his point...which is carey price is elite.

I think i'm right.

Some people were sold to the Carey Price being our savior idea and it hurts their ego to admit they were wrong and now they try by all means to convince them selfs that hes still is an elite.

I already knew Carey Price was not our goalie and guess what 1-2 weeks later he ***** the bed in 3 out of 4 games

He calls that being a hater or/and a troll. I call it being a visionary and a rational thinker. Yea we were winning before but not because of Price. Mainly the team was solid. He wasen't spectacular, he was decent.

He has a hard time seing Price's flaws because he chosed not to see them.

Also he always states that most people around the league would want Price in their team. Yet he brings no evidence to prove his argument.

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04-21-2013, 01:46 AM
  #414
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Price = MAF

High drafted goalie with impressive resume but overated

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04-21-2013, 01:50 AM
  #415
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So who is "the Habs" goalie in your eyes? Since you are a visionary and rational thinker? Yet you can't see the forest through the trees.

I can't wait until the Nordiques come back so this fan base loses about 3/4 of the "rational thinkers."

Team gives up 3+ odd man rushes a game...leaves people open in the slot yet lets blame the goalie. No wonder Patrick wanted the **** out.

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04-21-2013, 02:06 AM
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compile View Post
So who is "the Habs" goalie in your eyes? Since you are a visionary and rational thinker? Yet you can't see the forest through the trees.

I can't wait until the Nordiques come back so this fan base loses about 3/4 of the "rational thinkers."

Team gives up 3+ odd man rushes a game...leaves people open in the slot yet lets blame the goalie. No wonder Patrick wanted the **** out.
So if i understand well....

When Price have good stats, he is incredible because his team gives up 3+ odd man rushes a game and Price stop most of them, he get all the glory.

But if Price have bad stats he is still incredible because his team gives up 3+ odd man rushes a game and Price cant stop them all, he is not to blame.

If the goalie is not to blame and cant do nothing because his team gives up 3+ odd man rushes a game, then why not having a cheap average goalie and invest the saving$ in defense/forward.

I understand that as a backup he doesn't face the same opposition and pressure, but Budaj didn't do that bad when Price isn't there.


Last edited by palindrom: 04-21-2013 at 02:27 AM.
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Old
04-21-2013, 02:11 AM
  #417
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Saw the highlights. If we want to find excuses, we can say things like "It was Ovechkin", "There was a guy in front.", "It was a perfect shot.", etc. We can find excuses for most goals and pretend that it's not the goalie's fault. But as far as I'm concerned, Price was bad for 3 goals last night. And he's been playing very average in the last month.

You can bring up stats all you want. If a goalie plays great for two months, had it easy for another month and then stinks for a month, chances are his stats will still look decent. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he stunk for a month. Stats don't tell the whole story.

Maybe some of us have too high an expectation with Price. But for me, his performance fluctuates too much, with disconcerting lows.

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04-21-2013, 02:13 AM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compile View Post
So who is "the Habs" goalie in your eyes? Since you are a visionary and rational thinker? Yet you can't see the forest through the trees.

I can't wait until the Nordiques come back so this fan base loses about 3/4 of the "rational thinkers."

Team gives up 3+ odd man rushes a game...leaves people open in the slot yet lets blame the goalie. No wonder Patrick wanted the **** out.
So many assumptions... Why are you acting racist now? Are you saying the only reasons to not like price is because your french and you are a Nordiques fan?

FYI Michel Bergeron was Nordiques coach an he always defends Price.

Why do we so closely assossiate Price with Canadiens. You can indeed be a habs fan and hate Price.

To answer you question the goalie i woul see hes not in the organisation. To me in this era succesful goalies are the ones that have everything to prove. Goalies that are already established with massive contracts before winning any cup usually they underachieve. So I would never sign a goalie long term unless he has proven his value in the series otherwise its a huge gambling.

So I really enjoyed caps goalie last night. I want a goalie like him. I dont have a name in particular to give you. Another goalie I enjoy looking at is Ducks goalie.

But if you ask me who would i pick to sign long term at this moment I would go with Rask

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04-21-2013, 02:43 AM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Bieber fever View Post
Price = MAF

High drafted goalie with impressive resume but overated
I tend to agree. Price reminds me a little of Theodore, pressure playing here is in his head now, a trade best for both parties.

Don't need a great goalie, look at the Black Hawks? Ray Emery and Corey Crawford? More important to have strenght at center. Toews and Sharp. They have a good defense probably give them edge as best team in league. Pitt don't have great goalie neither, but same as Chicago they are strong at center. Letang is having great year.

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Old
04-21-2013, 03:07 AM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Still... why 275 and since 2007-2008 (Rookie season of Price) it take out Niemi, Howard, Halak, Hiller. Of course taking the highest number of GP Possible that include Price will be at his advantage.

I could choose to set the minimum at 600 career GP and say that Nabokov is among the top 5 and Theodore 6th.

And why Thomas isnt there? he didnt retire yet.

What about Anderson and Quick?

do you know the meaning of chery picking? Because your posted example look like a good definition of it.

Well, my other issue is: there are a lot of other goalie between .910 and .915%

a .001-005% difference mean somewhere between 2-12 goals allowed over a complete season and doesn't warrant a 6 500 000$ contract. Better to invests the money elsewhere: A 6 500 000$ forward/defenseman are in average more dominant vs average player than 6 500 000$ goalie vs average goalie.
was thinking about this the other day and well, you can also add the fact that (top of my head) not a single 6Mil+ goalie won a cup in the last decade or so...

the biggest problem I think is fact that when you have a goalie making so much, it pretty much guarantees you a 1Mil/1.5Mil back up, usually one you can't really count on if your starter is in a bad stretch or injured.

When your 6Mil+ goalie is in a funk, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose while when your 6Mil forward is in a funk, one or a few of the eleven other forwards can step up as they are also playing while the high priced forward is.

might be a good time to get rid of the Patrick Roy syndrome.

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Old
04-21-2013, 03:18 AM
  #421
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The way Price is playing now, he is untradeable anyway.

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04-21-2013, 03:41 AM
  #422
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I never thought I would see the day where price and trade were in the same sentence on a serious basis. Some of you should seriously get checked for mental stability issues, cause it isn't normal to be this bipolar.
I honestly feel embarrassed to be a fan of this franchise sometimes just because we have some of the most ignorant, ridiculous, short sighted, knee jerk reaction fans in the entire league.

I would love to see what would happen to some of you if we ended up like Toronto and missed the playoffs for 7 years... Suicide rates would go through the roof...

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Old
04-21-2013, 04:06 AM
  #423
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Sandman, there are idiot sportfans everywhere.

Be embarrassed of human nature, not the Habs.

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Old
04-21-2013, 04:15 AM
  #424
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It seems almost as if Price is the Messi sent from god.

Speaking of Messi... Now THAT guy is worth every penny they pay him.

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04-21-2013, 05:06 AM
  #425
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Aside from the 5-1 leafs loss Price hasn't been the problem. Our D is shredded Swiss cheese.
He's hasn't been great but he's not the problem. If people can't see that he's gonna be around for a while then you're out of your minds. He needs a real Defence in front of him.

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