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Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:03 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Rack rate for large consulting firms vary but a senior manager rack rate is usually around 700 per hour. A consultant around 400 per hour. Independent or small firms rack rates are much less than that. I know you can go out and find them for 150 an hour for independent consultants at the consultant level. Still, at 150 an hour, along with 2,500 per week for travel, gets you 300 hours of time. Double the travel and the per hour and it comes down even more.

Are we talking McKinsey & Co. here or Beacon?

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04-21-2013, 12:17 AM
  #852
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There are all kinds of one-man-shop type shops charging $250/hr. His higher price range is consistent with any number of name brand firms, in my experience.

 
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04-21-2013, 12:17 AM
  #853
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As for the final deliverable produced by Beacon, the CoG accepted the deliverable so they must have thought it was OK. Personally, if i turned something like that in, I would have been embarrassed but every person, regardless of their employer, have different viewpoints and standards for the work.
... there ya go. And nice to hear you say that Tommy.

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04-21-2013, 12:22 AM
  #854
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
There are all kinds of one-man-shop type shops charging $250/hr. His higher price range is consistent with any number of name brand firms, in my experience.

Well, a Beacon isn't exactly in the same league as a name brand of McKinsey, now is it? Or any number of other 'name brand' firms. I think the discussion has devolved into the theoretical and what 'consultants' can charge, with no further qualification based on type of consultancy, firm, industry and project types/scope.

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04-21-2013, 12:26 AM
  #855
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I don't honestly know what the discussion is about anymore, lol. As far as I can tell, Beacon was hired to do a specific prix-fix job, and they did that job satisfactorily well for a price well in line with industry pricing.

 
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04-21-2013, 12:28 AM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Glacial View Post
Ok, looking at their schedule:

Monday- @ Detroit
Wednesday- home vs. Sharks
Friday- home vs. Avalanche
Saturday- @ Anaheim (Huh? Last home game isn't televised in AZ? Just says KCOP, which is LA. Do they know something we don't? Or does Fox Sports AZ hold the Coyotes in such low regard they won't even bother to televise their final game of the season and perhaps as a team based in AZ?)
AFAIK.... the only game they originally were NOT going to broadcast this year was the 4/10 Edmonton game, but they added it in the week prior.

According the to the original press release the final regular season games was to be televised on the NHLNetwork. NHLN may have changed that.

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=650885

EDIT: Looking at NHLN's site now they don't show any TV listing for the game.


Last edited by TheLegend: 04-21-2013 at 12:38 AM.
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Old
04-21-2013, 12:29 AM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I don't honestly know what the discussion is about anymore, lol. As far as I can tell, Beacon was hired to do a specific prix-fix job, and they did that job satisfactorily well for a price well in line with industry pricing.

That's the point of contention. Which industry and type of consultancy? Just because a white shoe name brand firm can charge X doesn't mean that Beacon is worth that amount-- assuming anyone was dumb enough to pay Beacon a McKinsey rate.

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04-21-2013, 12:32 AM
  #858
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That's the point of contention. Which industry and type of consultancy? Just because a white shoe name brand firm can charge X doesn't mean that Beacon is worth that amount-- assuming anyone was dumb enough to pay Beacon a McKinsey rate.
Is there an invoice? Can we see (see, not speculate) how many hours Beacon billed?

 
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04-21-2013, 12:33 AM
  #859
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Forget Seattle they are not ready. Its going to be very hard to go another season in Glendale IMO. Quebec is probably the answer. And we all know that its not by choice.
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Why not?
  • Consider the Atlanta-to-Winnipeg transfer. TNSE had an AHL franchise (the Manitoba Moose) in an almost new facility (opened Nov 16, 2004). Even so, TNSE was working almost 24x7 from June through early October to upgrade their facilities from AHL level to NHL level.
  • Key Arena is nowhere near AHL level, let alone NHL level. The highest level of hockey it has hosted is WHL (Settle Thunderbirds). It was opened April 21, 1962 for the Seattle World's Fair. And its most recent renovation (1995) was basketball-specific. There is a lot more work to do to get to NHL standards.
  • La Colisee in Quebec actually was an NHL rink until 1995. They need only to match upgrades in NHL standards since then. A significant amount of work was done last summer, and the rest has been budgeted for this summer, contingent on the Coyotes moving in. They're also planning to RENT higher-capacity ice-making equipment for the spring of 2014 and 2015. Although winters get really cold, it can get up to 30 to 33 C (approx 85 to 90 F) in April/May http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc....tml?stnID=5251 Apparently, their current equipment is not able to keep the ice surface up to snuff to handle a spring heatwave.

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04-21-2013, 12:33 AM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
His higher price range is consistent with any number of name brand firms, in my experience.
Ya. Cheating the Polygraph.



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04-21-2013, 12:37 AM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Is there an invoice? Can we see (see, not speculate) how many hours Beacon billed?

I think that ship has sailed, no?

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04-21-2013, 12:40 AM
  #862
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I think that ship has sailed, no?
I have no idea, I'm not the one contending Beacon is overpriced.

 
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04-21-2013, 12:42 AM
  #863
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I have no idea, I'm not the one contending Beacon is overpriced.

You've then taken a position that they are appropriately priced.

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04-21-2013, 12:47 AM
  #864
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You've then taken a position that they are appropriately priced.
My position is:

(a) the value of their work to the client was worth far more than the $50k the client paid for it
(b) without seeing an actual invoice, it's impossible to discern what their billing rate actually was, so all discussion along those lines will "devolve" into meandering speculation

 
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04-21-2013, 12:50 AM
  #865
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Is there an invoice? Can we see (see, not speculate) how many hours Beacon billed?
Its on the record. $48,000 for tripe. $2000 less than the maximum Beasley was allowed to award without receiving Council approval. Beacon hired upon the recommendation of Michael Reinsdorf with whom he & they have history, and it aint pretty. You'll find it in the library here. Few pages back I believe CF linked it. If you think that firms top-end, worth that kind of money for the 3 days they spent in putting it together, have actually read the thing, well, dunno what to say to you. If lets say SportsCorps an 8 out of 10 & worth those kinds of fee's, a company like Beacon would be about a 3.5, maybe a 4 out of 10.

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04-21-2013, 12:53 AM
  #866
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
My position is:

(a) the value of their work to the client was worth far more than the $50k the client paid for it
You come to this conclusion how? That the arena mgt fees can range between $6-15 MM (or whatever the appropriate number), thus paying $50K for a revenue potential study is fair?

That may be the case but that doesn't mean what Beacon delivered had that value.

Is that a correct characterization of your opinion?

Quote:
(b) without seeing an actual invoice, it's impossible to discern what their billing rate actually was, so all discussion along those lines will "devolve" into meandering speculation
We don't have their billing rate, but we do know the total amount paid, and the contents of the study, correct? Would you pay $50K for that report if you had make a determination on what to pay in arena management fees?

I do agree that the speculation has indeed meandered.

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04-21-2013, 01:04 AM
  #867
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Is that a correct characterization of your opinion?
**** me. Was thinking about something else entirely - total brain fart - disregard everything I said on this subject this evening.

Gah.

 
Old
04-21-2013, 01:20 AM
  #868
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**** me. Was thinking about something else entirely - total brain fart - disregard everything I said on this subject this evening.

Gah.
Oh boy. You probably should have signed off after your Nucks took out my Wings.

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Its on the record. $48,000 for tripe. $2000 less than the maximum Beasley was allowed to award without receiving Council approval. Beacon hired upon the recommendation of Michael Reinsdorf with whom he & they have history, and it aint pretty. You'll find it in the library here. Few pages back I believe CF linked it. If you think that firms top-end, worth that kind of money for the 3 days they spent in putting it together, have actually read the thing, well, dunno what to say to you. If lets say SportsCorps an 8 out of 10 & worth those kinds of fee's, a company like Beacon would be about a 3.5, maybe a 4 out of 10.

Here's the CF post:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=701

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04-21-2013, 01:23 AM
  #869
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Here's the CF post:
I'm not commenting until I get a proper night's sleep.

 
Old
04-21-2013, 02:07 AM
  #870
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Are we talking McKinsey & Co. here or Beacon?
Not sure if McKinsey has a group that does this type of work. This is a very narrow area with few players so the supply of firms is very limited.

But back to the topic. The Coyotes have 4 games left and are only 3 points out. They could still sneak in. Mondays game against Detroit is likely a make or break for them. However they most likely won't be officially eliminated before the last home game, so don't expect an announcement of any kind before that.

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04-21-2013, 08:07 AM
  #871
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There's one aspect of the urban experience that's missing from those developments: diversity. Part of the reason I prefer urban living to suburban living is the diversity, in multiple aspects. I enjoy having people in my neighborhood that do not necessarily come from the same life background as me, whether it is racially/ethnically, socioeconomically, politically, etc. City neighborhoods will have wealthy blue-bloods and working-class immigrants living side-by-side, interacting, sending their kids to school together, etc. That is something I enjoy that "suburban lifestyle developments" don't have.
Not sure what you mean. I live in the suburbs (and I'm white) and among my neighbors as long as I've lived here are/were whites (high-class, redneck, Irish, Italian, German, English, Polish, etc), blacks (African-Americans and African immigrants), Filipinos, Hispanics, Koreans. To anyone driving by with a stereotype of suburbs, I'm sure the streets and well-tended lawns would seem like a sea of whiteness, but while whites are the majority, there is quite a diversity of races/backgrounds in it.

And back in the late '80s thru '90s when I was mostly in K-12, while the schools were still majority white (about 75% IIRC), there were loads of African-Americans, Hispanics (more as the '90s went on), quite a few Indians (#3 ethnic group by size til Latinos really started immigrating), Filipinos, Eastern Europeans (Poles, Croatians, Slovaks... or were they Slovenes? I distinguish them because they came over in the '80s or '90s, as opposed to Polish-Americans who have been here for 80+ years by the time the kids were born), and smaller numbers of Chinese, Koreans, Arabs, Africans. Even saw one Sikh at high school.

The experience you painted of suburbs was an experience my mom described to me of what suburbs were like when she was a kid and in school (she's a Baby Boomer)- all white, only a select few European nations as countries of origin, one token minority kid (not one group, just one kid). I wouldn't like to live in a conformist enclave fearful of anyone of a different race/class and enjoyed growing up with people from so many different parts of the world originally. I feel it made me more well-adjusted to demographic changes and less fearful/suspicious towards other ethnic groups. I live and have lived in a major metro in the Midwest, so my late 20th/early 21st suburban experience might be different from other metro areas.

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04-21-2013, 08:09 AM
  #872
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For needing an answer by the playoffs, we sure are close without any kind of idea of resolution

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04-21-2013, 09:59 AM
  #873
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For needing an answer by the playoffs, we sure are close without any kind of idea of resolution
Pretty cazy isnt it? Hard to say what the leagues' going to do. If the Coyotes do manage to make the playoff's I doubt the NHL will say anything at all, maintain radio silence until the Stanley Cup Finals are done & over with, as they wouldnt want the negativity in some quarters that the announcement of a relocation would engender re-directing peoples attentions on their problems. Alternatively, if the Coyotes dont make the playoffs', its possible they might move them during the lull between the end of the regular season & the start of the playoffs or alternatively just wait none the less. The only other possibility is that they just stay pat, renew their AMUL through 13/14, ask for and will likely receive the $6M in Arena Management Fee's Glendales earmarked for them regardless, announce that their still hopeful a deal can get done, possibly even give it a Deadline of December 31st. One final option, Suspension of the Franchise does exist however that I think is beyond remote. A PR nightmare. Dispersal Draft, carrying & servicing the debt until such time as they sell the franchise to whomever.... or maybe by some miracle Gosbee, Pastor or Mystery Buyer #4 miraculously rides in at the last minute & saves the day. Absolutely no idea.

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04-21-2013, 10:48 AM
  #874
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Not sure if McKinsey has a group that does this type of work. This is a very narrow area with few players so the supply of firms is very limited.
McKinsey will do any type of work. They may not be experts but they'll happily bill for it.

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04-21-2013, 12:01 PM
  #875
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You come to this conclusion how? That the arena mgt fees can range between $6-15 MM (or whatever the appropriate number), thus paying $50K for a revenue potential study is fair?

That may be the case but that doesn't mean what Beacon delivered had that value.

Is that a correct characterization of your opinion?

We don't have their billing rate, but we do know the total amount paid, and the contents of the study, correct? Would you pay $50K for that report if you had make a determination on what to pay in arena management fees?

I do agree that the speculation has indeed meandered.
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McKinsey will do any type of work. They may not be experts but they'll happily bill for it.
First of all, this was a fixed fee contract to produce a deliverable or set of deliverables for 48k. There is no rate charged. The original comment was along the lines of "they only spent a week out in Arizona and only talked to x number of people".

My point is 50k for a consulting firms gets you about 4-6 weeks worth of work from 1 person depending on their level and the amount of travel they need to do. This is regardless of the firm or the type of work. If it was an individual independent consultant doing the work from say Account Temps you would get more hours but not sure of the expertise....

My other point is that the interviewing done is not the only hours being spent on the project. There is other research that gets done such as pouring over the numbers being spent on various items such as rent and comparing that to the market in the area, what other teams are doing, what the situation is for other arenas, etc, and then just writing the deliverable and going through the editing process of it with the client.

My third point is that the it doesn't matter what you think of the quality of the deliverable, it was delivered to CoG's old guard and accepted by them. The quality goes straight to that, not what Beacon is capable of producing.

I read through the RFP and it was pretty good. Not necessarily how I would have structured it but if you ask 50 different firms you will get thousands of different answers, kinda like asking a lawyer a question.

Lastly, a 50k contract typically results in a simple diagnostic and is designed to point to a path, not do a full study on earnings potentials, revenue generations, alternatives on anchor tenants, renegotiation of contracts, etc.

Anyone thinking the 50k deliverable was going to provide any significant insight to a solution is kidding themselves. DI it set them on the right path? Sure, it said the arena was being mismanaged and not utilized to its potential.

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