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Old
04-21-2013, 08:18 AM
  #526
GKJ
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Briere probably doesn't have to move at all if he went to the Devils.

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04-21-2013, 08:26 AM
  #527
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There are potential legal reasons to stay close. They may even be written into the custody agreement. Sometimes there are custody issues with moving a certain distance from the ex-spouse, because it makes hardship for the other logistically (who pays for travel, who picks up, if she has first right to custody if Briere can't watch them one night, does he ship them back?). Sometimes they aren't even judgments, per se, but are guidelines determined by the meditator that both parties agree to that never make it to the judge. Those would have to be hammered out before moving. This is easy if you have someone who is amenable. I didn't get that sense from Briere's situation and Briere simply may not want to go through it again.

I'm not talking from a position of ignorance here (unfortunately.)

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Old
04-21-2013, 09:44 AM
  #528
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Well, seeing as to how Holmgren likes to blow things up every off season, I hope he blows it up this off season. The only untouchables should be Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, B. Schenn, Couturier, Laughton, Timonen, L.Schenn, Grossmann and Gustafsson. That's 10 good pieces to build around. I hope he lets Gagne and Fedotenko walk, buys out Briere and Bryzgalov, and ships Coburn out.

With regards to Gagne and Fedotenko, letting them walk frees up $5.25 million in cap space and opens up spots in the lineup full time for Akeson and McGinn.

As for Briere and Bryzgalov, they've sealed their respective fates. Briere's refusal to waive his NMC for the good of the team sealed his fate. As for Bryzgalov, I'm a fan, but he really lost me after the Winnipeg game in which he didn't support Mason replacing him and then his comments about how he doesn't care if he gets released. You never want to see that from a teammate and it's clear that Bryz only cares about Bryz. Free up that $12.17 million from the cap and get rid of the two.

As for Coburn, I have no problems getting rid of Coburn. 8 years in the league and he can't put together one good full season. I get it that he's got a real decent cap hit and when he's on, he's a solid top four guy. With that being said, you never know from game in and game out what Coburn you're going to get. Let someone else give up a top prospect and draft pick for him.

There's only one other move I'd consider if I were Holmgren and that would be seriously shopping Hartnell to see what his value is. I know some will hate the thought of this (and I'm sure Chris Shafer will be seething over the consideration of moving Coburn), but at this point, they need to consider all avenues at retooling the club.

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Old
04-21-2013, 09:47 AM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Briere probably doesn't have to move at all if he went to the Devils.
Good thinking.

Then he has a monster season against us next year.

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04-21-2013, 09:54 AM
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
As for Coburn, I have no problems getting rid of Coburn. 8 years in the league and he can't put together one good full season. I get it that he's got a real decent cap hit and when he's on, he's a solid top four guy. With that being said, you never know from game in and game out what Coburn you're going to get. Let someone else give up a top prospect and draft pick for him.
I'm opposed to moving Coburn at this point--barring some absurd overpayment, of course.

Three reasons:

1) Timonen may well retire at the end of next year, and Meszaros, absent some sort of 180 turn, is likely to be let go. Letting Coburn go as well would leave us with Grossmann and Schenn and a bunch of young guys.

2) I believe Coburn can and will rebound next year if paired with a proper PMD. Our priority, I think, should to be acquire / draft / develop a partner for Coburn. For example, the most likely "blockbuster" move, in my opinion, would be something around Couturier + for Yandle--and Yandle and Coburn would be a very strong 2nd pairing--really a 1B type.

3) Trading Coburn now would be selling at an all-time low. Even if you don't think he's going to ever be the shutdown #2 that we hoped, he's still an effective 2nd pairing defensemen with above average mobility.

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04-21-2013, 10:08 AM
  #531
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Coburn's injury is one he should recover 100% from, while Grossmann's concussion could linger. It's not a good time to deal Coburn.

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Old
04-21-2013, 10:39 AM
  #532
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The Flyers right now have 260+ man games lost due to injury. That equates to close to 6 roster players out on average per game. Over an 82 game season they would be over 465 man games lost pro-rated. No team could win with the amount of injuries this team has endured this year. This year was a right-off..treat it that way.

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Old
04-21-2013, 10:43 AM
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Well, seeing as to how Holmgren likes to blow things up every off season, I hope he blows it up this off season. The only untouchables should be Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, B. Schenn, Couturier, Laughton, Timonen, L.Schenn, Grossmann and Gustafsson. That's 10 good pieces to build around. I hope he lets Gagne and Fedotenko walk, buys out Briere and Bryzgalov, and ships Coburn out.

With regards to Gagne and Fedotenko, letting them walk frees up $5.25 million in cap space and opens up spots in the lineup full time for Akeson and McGinn.

As for Briere and Bryzgalov, they've sealed their respective fates. Briere's refusal to waive his NMC for the good of the team sealed his fate. As for Bryzgalov, I'm a fan, but he really lost me after the Winnipeg game in which he didn't support Mason replacing him and then his comments about how he doesn't care if he gets released. You never want to see that from a teammate and it's clear that Bryz only cares about Bryz. Free up that $12.17 million from the cap and get rid of the two.

As for Coburn, I have no problems getting rid of Coburn. 8 years in the league and he can't put together one good full season. I get it that he's got a real decent cap hit and when he's on, he's a solid top four guy. With that being said, you never know from game in and game out what Coburn you're going to get. Let someone else give up a top prospect and draft pick for him.

There's only one other move I'd consider if I were Holmgren and that would be seriously shopping Hartnell to see what his value is. I know some will hate the thought of this (and I'm sure Chris Shafer will be seething over the consideration of moving Coburn), but at this point, they need to consider all avenues at retooling the club.
I agree with you on everything except I would prefer to keep Gagne, and I wouldn't buy out Bryz unless there's a move in place to get someone like Bernier. Last time I read they wanted a top 6 winger for him, so I would definitely consider moving Hartnell there. Laughton I'd also consider moving at the draft, but only if we've already made our pick and someone like Zadorov or Ristolainen is still on the board. But I'm hoping the flyers will just take Zadorov with their pick so that won't be an issue. I'd still move him for Risto though, even if we've already taken a dman with our pick.

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Old
04-21-2013, 11:50 AM
  #534
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[QUOTE=Jack de la Hoya;64379711]I'm opposed to moving Coburn at this point--barring some absurd overpayment, of course.

Three reasons:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
1) Timonen may well retire at the end of next year, and Meszaros, absent some sort of 180 turn, is likely to be let go. Letting Coburn go as well would leave us with Grossmann and Schenn and a bunch of young guys.
If Timonen and Meszaros are gone after the 2014 season, there's still plenty of good defensemen available via free agency. Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Letang, Hjalmarsson, Seidenberg, Girardi, Niskanen, Nikitin, Mark Stuart, Mark Fayne, Raphael Diaz are just some of the guys available. I'd be comfortable if the Flyers managed to sign two of those guys to add to Grossmann, Schenn, Gustafsson and whoever they acquire this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
2) I believe Coburn can and will rebound next year if paired with a proper PMD. Our priority, I think, should to be acquire / draft / develop a partner for Coburn. For example, the most likely "blockbuster" move, in my opinion, would be something around Couturier + for Yandle--and Yandle and Coburn would be a very strong 2nd pairing--really a 1B type.
Here's the thing with Coburn. I don't buy that he can rebound with a PMD. He showed in the playoffs that he could be partnered with a guy like Grossmann and be effective. Every year that Coburn has been in Philadelphia, I look at the partners he's played with and not one of them have been able to help him get over the hump and be a consistent defenseman game in and game out. He's played with guys like Derian Hatcher, Jason Smith, Kimmo Timonen as well as Pronger and most recently, Nick Grossmann. At some point, one would expect Coburn to put it all together and he just hasn't, what ever the reason is. Will partnering Coburn with a guy like Yandle help him get over the hump? I don't think so and it's simply because Coburn hasn't shown the ability to play in a consistent manner for an entire season. At some point, you've got to cut bait. Yes, I get that he's got a decent cap hit and that he can play in a top four role. But at the same time, you've got to shelter Coburn and he can't be a lead pairing defenseman or else he just falls apart. He's not capable of being a lead guy and with the money that Coburn makes, that's what a lead pairing defenseman makes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
3) Trading Coburn now would be selling at an all-time low. Even if you don't think he's going to ever be the shutdown #2 that we hoped, he's still an effective 2nd pairing defensemen with above average mobility.
I don't think selling Coburn now would be selling at a low. There's going to be some team out there that will be enticed by the package he brings and that they'll want to take a chance on him. Hey, I love the skillset that Coburn brings. For a big man, he can really skate and when he's on, he can handle the puck and he can play like he's an all star. The problem with Coburn is that he doesn't do this consistently - strike shortened season or not. For 8 years, I know that myself and other fans have been waiting for the real Coburn to emerge and for 8 years, he's consistently disappointed. Just when you think he's about to turn the corner, he falls back into a rut.

I'd love to see him put it all together, but he'll never put it together here. He's never been the same player since he took the puck in the face in that Pittsburgh series. He needs a change of scenery and it's time for him to go.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:07 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
snip
I would love it if Hartnell is traded maybe for a 1st + a good prospect. I also wouldn't mind Coburn being traded if the deal is a good one. Kinda sucks Briere wouldn't waive his NMC, but that is within his rights to do that so don't really blame him for that. I guess the two amnesties will be used on Briere and Bryz then.

I really hope the Flyers don't trade for Yandle. Most likely the price would be Couts++. I hope the Flyers draft a d-man instead and be patient for once.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:12 PM
  #536
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Couts has more value then Read to us, but maybe not to other clubs.

So I think Read++ would be a good deal for Yandle. Would like to see Read and Mez involved in a deal, simply because it might be a little hard to replace Coburn compared to Mez.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:26 PM
  #537
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I guess I'm just less inclined to blow the team up than others:

- Not eager to trade Read--I'd do it for a young NHL PMD (and add if necessary--but not for draft picks or project prospects. You can always take a crack at re-signing him next year, and if he's going to be too expensive, move him at the deadline.

- Not interested in trading Coburn for all the reasons I've sketched above--there's too much long-term uncertainty about our defensive corps, Coburn has had one bad year, but has otherwise performed as a steady if unspectacular 2nd pairing D, and trading him now would be selling low, IMO. Obviously if a deal came along for a true top defenseman that required his inclusion in a package, I'd be open to it, but not interested in flipping him for a defensive prospect with a top-4 projection or a mid-1st.

- If Edmonton wants to trade us something of significant value for Hartnell and he's willing to waive, I'd listen, but based on HF standards, the offer is likely to be Musil or Marincin + 3rd.

I'd rather see the team take a less dramatic approach this offseason. This year went off the tracks from the start. Give the younger guys an offseason to develop and the veterans an offseason to get healthy. I'd also bring Laviolette back. Give Laviolette a shorter leash, but definitely bring him back.

After 20 or so games in 2013-2014, reevaluate. If things aren't going well, then we can take more drastic steps.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:32 PM
  #538
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I would love it if Hartnell is traded maybe for a 1st + a good prospect. I also wouldn't mind Coburn being traded if the deal is a good one. Kinda sucks Briere wouldn't waive his NMC, but that is within his rights to do that so don't really blame him for that. I guess the two amnesties will be used on Briere and Bryz then.

I really hope the Flyers don't trade for Yandle. Most likely the price would be Couts++. I hope the Flyers draft a d-man instead and be patient for once.
I agree, I really really hope we don't trade away out future for one d-man who may or may not even work out here. I don't think Yandle is going to be the guy that turns the team around and suddenly makes us a playoff/cup contender and we'd have to give up more for him than it's worth. If we draft a d-man and develop him we'd don't have to give up Couts+ and we'll still have pretty good depth in the prospect pool.

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Old
04-21-2013, 12:40 PM
  #539
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What about something like Coburn for Clendening + Brookbank?

Would be nice to acquire another stay at home defender on Hawks to pair with Oduya fulltime on 3rd pair next season (Also provides security if Hammer leaves as UFA in summer of 2014)

Clendening fits the PMD prospect with top 4 potential that your board has been looking for. Kid wont get a chance in Chicago with Nick Leddy here though. Brookbank is just a cheap 1 year bottom pairing defender for Flyers but would need to move salary wise for Hawks

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04-21-2013, 01:13 PM
  #540
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What about something like Coburn for Clendening + Brookbank?

Would be nice to acquire another stay at home defender on Hawks to pair with Oduya fulltime on 3rd pair next season (Also provides security if Hammer leaves as UFA in summer of 2014)

Clendening fits the PMD prospect with top 4 potential that your board has been looking for. Kid wont get a chance in Chicago with Nick Leddy here though. Brookbank is just a cheap 1 year bottom pairing defender for Flyers but would need to move salary wise for Hawks
Brookbank serves no purpose to the Flyers. They have Gus and Gervais already for the bottom pair. Gervais isnt that good but either is Brookbank.

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Old
04-21-2013, 01:22 PM
  #541
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I'd like to see lines something like this (have an obvious 1st line but essentially have two 2nd lines, then an obvious 4th line):

xxx - Giroux - Voracek
Hartnell - B. Schenn - xxx
Read - Couturier - Simmonds
Rinado - Laughton - Talbot
Rosehill, etc.

Timonen - Coburn
Gustafsson - L. Schenn
Grossmann - xxx
Gervais, etc.

...

OUT: Briere, Fedotenko, Shelley, Knuble, Walker, Foster, Huskins, Meszaros ...
POSSIBLY BRING BACK: Gagne, Hall ...

That list of players gone (or possible gone) after the season is music to my ears. The team looks waaaayyyy better IMO. Could use another PMD type defenseman to pair with Grossmann ... Nikita Zaitsev anyone?

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Old
04-21-2013, 01:32 PM
  #542
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It would probably be something more like Clendening or Fournier and your 1st this year. Prospects are still unestablished players and the 1st this year is going to most likely be between 27 and 30. You guys would get the more established player that could help your lineup now and we'd end up with 2 good prospects with potential but aren't elite talent and are going to need a few years of development.

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04-21-2013, 01:48 PM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Brookbank serves no purpose to the Flyers. They have Gus and Gervais already for the bottom pair. Gervais isnt that good but either is Brookbank.
You would actually want Gus and Gervais on the bottom pairing? I can see Gus being there but not with Gervais, Gervais shouldn't even be in the league. I personally like Foster, Huskins and the Great Dane better than him. It sucks we are stuck with his contract for another season.

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04-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #544
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Could you imagine a line of Voracek/Giroux/Jagr? The puck control on that line would be amazing. You rarely ever see any of those players lose a puck battle along the boards. I would also love to bring in Elias for a season to teach the ins and outs of being a center in the league to Giroux/Schenn/Couts/Laughton. I just don't know if he would actually consider leaving the Devils. Jagr and Elias would be great for this team and it wouldn't handicap the future re-signings of Read/Giroux. I also like Gus better than Mez at this point for what they both bring to the table. I never agreed with So Cyred on here about Gus, but he has shown me something this year with his offensive skill and his defensive awareness.

Voracek/Giroux/Jagr
Hartnell/Elias/Schenn
Read/Couts/Simmonds
Talbot/Laughton/Rinaldo
Rosehill

Schenn/Kimmo
Streit/Coburn
Gus/Grossmann
Huskins

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04-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #545
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You would actually want Gus and Gervais on the bottom pairing? I can see Gus being there but not with Gervais, Gervais shouldn't even be in the league. I personally like Foster, Huskins and the Great Dane better than him. It sucks we are stuck with his contract for another season.
He's not that bad as a 6/7 defensemen. He was playing way more minutes than he could handle up until his injury due to other defensemen being out of the lineup. In the beginning of the year when we had a healthy defense and he was playing bottom pairing minutes he was fine.

At this point he's a better option than Foster and Laurdisen but that's not saying much.

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Old
04-21-2013, 02:07 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm opposed to moving Coburn at this point--barring some absurd overpayment, of course.

Three reasons:

1) Timonen may well retire at the end of next year, and Meszaros, absent some sort of 180 turn, is likely to be let go. Letting Coburn go as well would leave us with Grossmann and Schenn and a bunch of young guys.

2) I believe Coburn can and will rebound next year if paired with a proper PMD. Our priority, I think, should to be acquire / draft / develop a partner for Coburn. For example, the most likely "blockbuster" move, in my opinion, would be something around Couturier + for Yandle--and Yandle and Coburn would be a very strong 2nd pairing--really a 1B type.

3) Trading Coburn now would be selling at an all-time low. Even if you don't think he's going to ever be the shutdown #2 that we hoped, he's still an effective 2nd pairing defensemen with above average mobility.
Agree on this one. Coburn hasn't had a good year, but he's big, fast, and has proven to be a horse who can log huge minutes on a good team.

I'd prefer finding a really good LD to play with Luke Schenn, reunite Coburn with Timonen and then decide if Gus is good enough to partner Grossmann. Keep Gervais as #7 and the D is set.

Now, who is the LD? UFA like Streit? Trade for Yandle? That's the $64,000,000 question.

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04-21-2013, 02:35 PM
  #547
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This is what I'd like to see. It's not perfect, but it's all I can hope for in a vague game plan:

Buyout Briere, get rid of Bryzgalov.
Acquire a PMD via trade, using Read, Laughton and Meszaros as assets.
Draft someone like Lindholm with our high 1st. Let him develop.
Target a veteran UFA winger to replace Briere on the 2nd line.
Sign a FO specialist who can play on the PK for the 4th line.
Sign a 1B goalie for Mason.
Re-sign Gagne and Hall for cheap.
Fire Laviolette, bring in a new coach to change identity.

Hypothetical lineup:

Hartnell - Giroux - Voracek
(Morrow) - Schenn - Simmonds
(Gagne) - Couturier - Talbot
McGinn - (Gordon) - Rinaldo
(Hall)

Coburn - (Yandle)
Timonen - Schenn
Gustafsson - Grossmann
Gervais

Mason
(Khudobin)

The toughest part is trading for a PMD, but I believe it's do-able. It really depends on what players are available and what kind of return the other teams want, and outsiders like us can only speculate what the market is like.

Also goaltending is still a gigantic question mark, but forcing a solution turns out poorly more often then not. If an opportunity presents itself (like Luongo being bought out, for instance), the Flyers need to jump on it and try their best to stabilize the position.

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04-21-2013, 03:13 PM
  #548
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I think Gustafsson would make a solid pairing with Grossmann on the 3rd pairing. I do think it's possible to grab a guy to either play with Coburn or Schenn. I do think Homer will make a play for Streit on a 3 year deal (should get a two year but Homer will have to get a 3rd year out of it to get him).

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Grossmann-Gustafsson

Gotta think that's a solid defense.

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Old
04-21-2013, 03:54 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
This is what I'd like to see. It's not perfect, but it's all I can hope for in a vague game plan:

Buyout Briere, get rid of Bryzgalov.
Acquire a PMD via trade, using Read, Laughton and Meszaros as assets.
Draft someone like Lindholm with our high 1st. Let him develop.
Target a veteran UFA winger to replace Briere on the 2nd line.
Sign a FO specialist who can play on the PK for the 4th line.
Sign a 1B goalie for Mason.
Re-sign Gagne and Hall for cheap.
Fire Laviolette, bring in a new coach to change identity.

Hypothetical lineup:

Hartnell - Giroux - Voracek
(Morrow) - Schenn - Simmonds
(Gagne) - Couturier - Talbot
McGinn - (Gordon) - Rinaldo
(Hall)

Coburn - (Yandle)
Timonen - Schenn
Gustafsson - Grossmann
Gervais

Mason
(Khudobin)

The toughest part is trading for a PMD, but I believe it's do-able. It really depends on what players are available and what kind of return the other teams want, and outsiders like us can only speculate what the market is like.

Also goaltending is still a gigantic question mark, but forcing a solution turns out poorly more often then not. If an opportunity presents itself (like Luongo being bought out, for instance), the Flyers need to jump on it and try their best to stabilize the position.
If I am trading Laughton and read it better be in a package for a proven #1 like weber or for #1 overall to select jones. I have no problem giving up a lot of assets for those two guys but not for yandle

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04-21-2013, 03:55 PM
  #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I think Gustafsson would make a solid pairing with Grossmann on the 3rd pairing. I do think it's possible to grab a guy to either play with Coburn or Schenn. I do think Homer will make a play for Streit on a 3 year deal (should get a two year but Homer will have to get a 3rd year out of it to get him).

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Coburn
Grossmann-Gustafsson

Gotta think that's a solid defense.
I would be on board with that for sure. Should be a very solid defense

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