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Red Fisher Conference Prelim Round - Minnesota Fighting Saints vs Viking Maniacs

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Old
04-15-2013, 03:58 AM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Red Fisher Conference Prelim Round - Minnesota Fighting Saints vs Viking Maniacs

Minnesota Fighting Saints


GMs: Nalyd Psycho & Mike Farkas
Coach: Pete Green
Captain: Hooley Smith
Alternate Captains: Doug Harvey, Keith Magnuson

#4 Reg Noble-#6 Frank Nighbor-#7 R. J. "Hooley" Smith
#5 Baldy Northcott-#8 Vyacheslav Starshinov-#26 Martin St Louis
#17 Jiri Holik-#20 Pete Mahovlich-#19 John McKenzie
#9 Zach Parise-#13 Ken Linseman-#71 Mike Foligno

#2 Doug Harvey-#14 Fern Flaman
#26 Dave Burrows-#16 Ted Green
#29 Reijo Ruotsalainen-#3 Keith Magnuson

#31 Billy Smith
#1 Roberto Luongo

#10 Albert "Dubbie" Kerr
-#11 Allen Cameron-#17 Billy Taylor-#44 Chris Phillips

PP1: Starshinov-Nighbor-Smith-Harvey-Ruotsalainen
PP2: Northcott-Mahovlich-St Louis-Noble-Green

PK1: Nighbor-Smith-Harvey-Flaman
PK2: Mahovlich-St Louis-Burrows-Magnuson

VS

VIKING MANIACS

Coach: Jacques Demers
Captain: Bob Gainey
Ass. captains:
Viacheslav Fetisov
Guy Carbonneau


Please obeserve that my third line will play the most, and the fourth very sparingly 5-on-5. Complete chart down below.

Brendan Shanahan-Max Bentley-Dany Heatley
Daniel Sedin-Vladimir Petrov-Claude Lemieux
Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-BÅ Gustafsson/Lemieux(See chart below)
Marcel Bonin-Simon Gagne-Bobby Schmautz
Gagne played some center early in his career, will do it here for two shifts per period.


Second and third pairing players will play roughly equally much, in total with special team duty. This to maximize the first ones performance. Again, please see the chart below.

Viacheslav Fetisov-Ulf Samuelsson
Gary Suter-Ken Morrow(RHS)
Alexei Gusarov-James Patrick(RHS)


Glenn Hall
Vladimir Dzurilla

Reserves: Tiger Williams(LW), Andy Hebenton(RW/C)
Paul Reinhart, Jeff Brown(RHS)

POWER PLAY:
All players with PP-stats available there has been linked to Hockey-Reference for easy access to PP-fruitivity.

1st unit will play a 1-3-1 power-play with Shanahan on the goalie and prime Heatley as mainly a central sniper, the other ones doing passing lanes between them, and taking shots, and in especially Bentleys case obviously taking one-on-one action:

Shanahan(RHS)
Petrov(RHS)-Heatley-Bentley
Fetisov
---------------------------------------
This unit will play a simple power-play on the outside with Lemieux on the goalie:

Sedin-Lemieux(RHS)-Gagne
Patrick(RHS)-Suter

BOX PLAY:

Gainey-Carbonneau
Fetisov-Samuelsson
-----------------------------
Bonin-Gustafsson
Morrow-Gusarov


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-17-2013 at 12:49 AM.
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Old
04-15-2013, 11:12 AM
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Darth Yoda
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I will work my lineup concerning this particular opponent some time tonight.

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04-15-2013, 01:24 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I will work my lineup concerning this particular opponent some time tonight.
I'll edit the OP accordingly.

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04-15-2013, 10:40 PM
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Darth Yoda
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It's been a long night. Firstly, i appologise for by accident posting far from complete line-ups earlier. Now it's just about finished and it's been quite the partial overhaul here partly becouse of the team we're up against, partly becouse we probably should have done some of these changes for the regular season allready. I've also added bios to some of the more perhaps obsqure, but oh still important players. Also updated some others, but when it comes to still active players and a certain HoF snub last summer i've just linked to Hockey-Reference for now, very good to see not the least Power-Play scoring.

VIKING MANIACS

Coach: Jacques Demers
Captain: Bob Gainey
Ass. captains:
Viacheslav Fetisov
Guy Carbonneau


Please obeserve that my third line will play the most, and the fourth very sparingly 5-on-5. Complete chart down below.

Brendan Shanahan-Max Bentley-Dany Heatley
Daniel Sedin-Vladimir Petrov-Claude Lemieux
Bob Gainey-Guy Carbonneau-BÅ Gustafsson/Lemieux(See chart below)
Marcel Bonin-Simon Gagne-Bobby Schmautz
Gagne played some center early in his career, will do it here for two shifts per period.


Second and third pairing players will play roughly equally much, in total with special team duty. This to maximize the first ones performance. Again, please see the chart below.

Viacheslav Fetisov-Ulf Samuelsson
Gary Suter-Ken Morrow(RHS)
Alexei Gusarov-James Patrick(RHS)


Glenn Hall
Vladimir Dzurilla

Reserves: Tiger Williams(LW), Andy Hebenton(RW/C)
Paul Reinhart, Jeff Brown(RHS)

POWER PLAY:
All players with PP-stats available there has been linked to Hockey-Reference for easy access to PP-fruitivity.

1st unit will play a 1-3-1 power-play with Shanahan on the goalie and prime Heatley as mainly a central sniper, the other ones doing passing lanes between them, and taking shots, and in especially Bentleys case obviously taking one-on-one action:

Shanahan(RHS)
Petrov(RHS)-Heatley-Bentley
Fetisov
---------------------------------------
This unit will play a simple power-play on the outside with Lemieux on the goalie:

Sedin-Lemieux(RHS)-Gagne
Patrick(RHS)-Suter

BOX PLAY:

Gainey-Carbonneau
Fetisov-Samuelsson
-----------------------------
Bonin-Gustafsson
Morrow-Gusarov

Offense Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Shanahan 13 4.5 0 17.5
Bentley 13 4.5 0 17.5
Heatley 13 4.5 0 17.5
Sedin 13 2.5 0 15.5
Petrov 13 4.5 0 17.5
Lemieux 16 2.5 0 18.5
Gainey 15 0 4.5 19.5
Carbonneau 15 0 4.5 19.5
Gustafsson 12 0 2.5 14.5
Bonin 5 0 2.5 7.5
Gagne 5 2.5 0 7.5
Schmautz 5 0 0 5
TOTAL 138 25.5 14 177.5

Defense Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Fetisov 18 4.5 4.5 27
Samuelsson 18 0 4.5 22.5
Suter 14 2.5 0 16.5
Morrow 14 0 2.5 16.5
Gusarov 14 0 2.5 16.5
Patrick 14 2.5 0 16.5
TOTAL 92 9.5 14 115.5

I'll have a further look on my opponents team when i've slept, having trouble digesting aforemost all the old dudes on his first line.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-16-2013 at 06:11 AM.
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04-21-2013, 04:01 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Sorry for waiting so long to post...

The strategy is as such.

The Nighbor line will match against the Bentley line. Nighbor will effectively neutralize Bentley's ability to carry the puck in the zone. Smith and Noble can physically match-up with Shanahan and Heatley. And the physicality of our defense and astute decision making or Harvey will make dump and chase ineffective. The line can also counter attack effectively against the unit.

After that, there is a clear offensive edge to Minnesota. St. Louis is the best offensive player in the bottom 9. While the Viking team has more defensively poor players like Sedin, Gagne (Out of position too) etc... The 3rd line of Viking may be great defensively, but their lack of offense will make them ineffective against a team that does not rely heavily on any one line for offense and has superior team defense.

The only advantage Viking has on the blueline is Suter. Harvey is better than Fetisov, Flaman than Samuelsson, Burrows over Morrow, Magnusson over Patrick and Ruotsalainen over Gusarov.

Hall is obviously better than Smith, but, in a series where the lockdown defensive abilities of the teams will be the driving force, one bad goal could turn the series, and Smith is less likely to let in a bad goal.

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04-21-2013, 05:04 PM
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Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Sorry for waiting so long to post...

The strategy is as such.

The Nighbor line will match against the Bentley line. Nighbor will effectively neutralize Bentley's ability to carry the puck in the zone. Smith and Noble can physically match-up with Shanahan and Heatley. And the physicality of our defense and astute decision making or Harvey will make dump and chase ineffective. The line can also counter attack effectively against the unit.

After that, there is a clear offensive edge to Minnesota. St. Louis is the best offensive player in the bottom 9. While the Viking team has more defensively poor players like Sedin, Gagne (Out of position too) etc... The 3rd line of Viking may be great defensively, but their lack of offense will make them ineffective against a team that does not rely heavily on any one line for offense and has superior team defense.

The only advantage Viking has on the blueline is Suter. Harvey is better than Fetisov, Flaman than Samuelsson, Burrows over Morrow, Magnusson over Patrick and Ruotsalainen over Gusarov.

Hall is obviously better than Smith, but, in a series where the lockdown defensive abilities of the teams will be the driving force, one bad goal could turn the series, and Smith is less likely to let in a bad goal.
I dont think their first line is better than mine. Very elite players for their era but, their era was not as elite as later when Shanahan, Bentley and Heatley was all-stars and All-Star Team players. We have great playoff performers here.

Baldy Northcott was not better than Daniel Sedin for the same reason if for no other, Vyacheslav Starshinov was hardly better than Vladimir Petrov, and Martin St Louis i dont think can be seen as a better play-off performer than Claude Lemieux.

Their third line of Jiri Holik, Pete Mahovlich and John McKenzie, against mine with Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau and BÅ Gustafsson sometimes aided by Playoff Claude Lemieux. How are his players better?

His fourth line is Zach Parise, Ken Linseman and Mike Foligno. All quality players, and unfortunately the GM has'nt presented how many minutes his lines are supposed to play, but i can say that my fourth are NOT a complete reference to his becouse mine will only play five minutes even strenght in this matchup. The rest of those minutes are going to be taken most by my third line composed by two Selke Trophy Masters and a stalwart Selke Trophy-vote getter aided by Playoff Claude Lemieux on some shifts to give them some punch.

When it comes to our D i think we at least have very balanced pairings and a rested(Dzurilla supported him during the stretch which was noted) Glenn Hall behind them.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-22-2013 at 03:32 AM. Reason: Misspelling, late here.
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04-21-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Baldy Northcott was not better than Daniel Sedin for the same reason, Vyacheslav Starshinov hardly better than Vladimir Petrov, and Martin St Louis i dont think can be seen as a better play-off performer than Claude Lemieux.
Daniel Sedin is better than Northcott, offensively at least. Overall, there are arguments for both. Petrov is easily better than Starshinov. The gap between St. Louis and Claude Lemieux is gargantuan. Claude Lemieux doesn't have one season of adjusted points greater than 70. St. Louis has 8, and would be on pace for 9 if this current season was a full season. Adjusted points does punish people from his era a bit, but that difference is still very large. Claude Lemieux is one of the worst top 6 forwards offensively in the draft, breaking the 50 mark of VsX just 5 times(59, 59, 58, 55, 50).

Quote:
Their third line of Jiri Holik, Pete Mahovlich and John McKenzie, against mine with Bob Gainey, Guy Carbonneau and BÅ Gustafsson sometimes aided by Playoff Claude Lemieux. How are his players better?
In a vacuum, they are better hockey players. Gustafsson was a solid offensive player for a 3rd liner, but he's next to two guys that don't bring much offensively in Carbonneau and Gainey. I'd say your 3rd line will certainly be more effective than his 3rd line in doing their job though, and there's a difference between that and being "better".

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04-21-2013, 07:25 PM
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Darth Yoda
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Claude Lemieux doesn't have one season of adjusted points greater than 70. St. Louis has 8, and would be on pace for 9 if this current season was a full season. Adjusted points does punish people from his era a bit, but that difference is still very large. Claude Lemieux is one of the worst top 6 forwards offensively in the draft, breaking the 50 mark of VsX just 5 times(59, 59, 58, 55, 50).
This is the playoffs. Claude Lemieux is Claude Lemieux. He has a Conn Smythe, 80 playoff goals, 78 playoff assists in 234 playoff games that stretched over a full career and not some shortened one that St. Louis has experienced. Claude is a somewhat more physical presence than Martin too, to say the least.

Quote:
In a vacuum, they are better hockey players. Gustafsson was a solid offensive player for a 3rd liner, but he's next to two guys that don't bring much offensively in Carbonneau and Gainey. I'd say your 3rd line will certainly be more effective than his 3rd line in doing their job though, and there's a difference between that and being "better".
I did'nt expressively say better, but other than that you are correct. Gustafsson did get some considerable votes for the Selke too though, which can be seen by watching his player profile through his name in the lineup.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-22-2013 at 03:46 AM. Reason: Gustafsson
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04-21-2013, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
This is the playoffs. Claude Lemieux is Claude Lemieux. He has a Conn Smythe, 80 playoff goals, 78 playoff assists in 234 playoff games that stretched over a full career and not some shortened one that St. Louis has experienced. Claude is a somewhat more physical presence than Martin too, to say the least.
By this logic, a team with Danny Briere, Henrik Zetterberg, Jari Kurri, Claude Lemieux, and Dick Duff should be a lock to win the ATD. St. Louis' PPG goes up by .15 in the playoffs. Lemieux's goes up by only .028. Lemieux certainly did it for much longer, but you won't find another GM that would call Claude Lemieux an equal of Marty St. Louis' in the playoffs. At least I hope not.

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04-21-2013, 08:45 PM
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Darth Yoda
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
By this logic, a team with Danny Briere, Henrik Zetterberg, Jari Kurri, Claude Lemieux, and Dick Duff should be a lock to win the ATD. St. Louis' PPG goes up by .15 in the playoffs. Lemieux's goes up by only .028. Lemieux certainly did it for much longer, but you won't find another GM that would call Claude Lemieux an equal of Marty St. Louis' in the playoffs. At least I hope not.
I believe the ATD does take regular season performance for what it is and playoff performance for what that is. If it's the case that Lemieux 234 playoff games with that kind of production, with peak performances, and intangibles is not enough against St. Louis 63 games, i guess Lemieux line with Petrov and Sedin is still quite competitive if put on the table against my opponents second line of Baldicott, Starshinov, St. Louis?


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-21-2013 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Intangibles. Late here, or early. ;)
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04-21-2013, 11:35 PM
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I'll post my minutes chart again since TheDevilMadeMe did'nt include it in the OP, but where several references to it is situated.

Offense Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Shanahan 13 4.5 0 17.5
Bentley 13 4.5 0 17.5
Heatley 13 4.5 0 17.5
Sedin 13 2.5 0 15.5
Petrov 13 4.5 0 17.5
Lemieux 16 2.5 0 18.5
Gainey 15 0 4.5 19.5
Carbonneau 15 0 4.5 19.5
Gustafsson 12 0 2.5 14.5
Bonin 5 0 2.5 7.5
Gagne 5 2.5 0 7.5
Schmautz 5 0 0 5
TOTAL 138 25.5 14 177.5

Defense Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Fetisov 18 4.5 4.5 27
Samuelsson 18 0 4.5 22.5
Suter 14 2.5 0 16.5
Morrow 14 0 2.5 16.5
Gusarov 14 0 2.5 16.5
Patrick 14 2.5 0 16.5
TOTAL 92 9.5 14 115.5

Glenn Hall who got some rest during the stretch in the regular season which was noted. A factual Smythe-winner under similar surroundings.
Vladimir Dzurilla


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-22-2013 at 03:41 AM.
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04-22-2013, 04:06 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Claude Lemieux's Playoff numbers per 82gp.
28g, 27a, 55pts.
Ken Linseman's
31g, 56a, 87pts.

And in fairness to era, Lemieux's numbers if you eliminate his last five playoffs:
30g, 25a, 55pts.

Lets not overstate Lemieux's playoff play. He stepped his game up, but he did not become a star player. He had a lot of average playoffs. And a lot of his games played can be attributed to playing in front of Patrick Roy or Martin Brodeur for the majority of his career.

As for minutes:

Offense Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Noble 13 2.5 1 16.5
Nighbor 13 4.5 4.5 22
Smith 13 4.5 4.5 22
Northcott 12 2.5 0 14.5
Starshinov 12 4.5 0 16.5
St. Louis 12 2.5 2.5 17
Holik 12 0 0 12
Mahovlich 12 2.5 2.5 19
McKenzie 12 0 0 12
Parise 9 0 0 9
Linseman 9 0 0 9
Foligno 9 0 0 9
TOTAL 138 23.5 15 176.5

Defense Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Harvey 17 4.5 4.5 26
Flaman 16 0 4.5 20.5
Green 16 2.5 0 18.5
Burrows 16 0 2.5 18.5
Ruotsalainen 13 4.5 0 17
Magnuson 14 0 2.5 17
TOTAL 92 11.5 14 117.5

I wouldn't say that my 3rd line has better players, I said they are offensively superior. Your 3rd line is an offensive blackhole.

You may think that giving your 4th line barely any minutes hides there flaws, but all it does is increase the grind on your top players in what will inevitably be a physical series.

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04-22-2013, 04:37 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I'll post my minutes chart again since TheDevilMadeMe did'nt include it in the OP, but where several references to it is situated.
I didn't include a link to the minutes charts in any of the OPs I did - if the OPs get too long, nobody can make any sense of them. If you want, I can add a link to your minutes chart in the OP, but I would like to think that GMs are reading the whole thread before voting.

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04-22-2013, 08:36 PM
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Darth Yoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Claude Lemieux's Playoff numbers per 82gp.
28g, 27a, 55pts.
Ken Linseman's
31g, 56a, 87pts.

And in fairness to era, Lemieux's numbers if you eliminate his last five playoffs:
30g, 25a, 55pts.

Lets not overstate Lemieux's playoff play. He stepped his game up, but he did not become a star player. He had a lot of average playoffs. And a lot of his games played can be attributed to playing in front of Patrick Roy or Martin Brodeur for the majority of his career.
What does Ken Linseman have to do with Claude Lemieux vs. Martin St. Louis? It's possible that people think St. Louis short playoff-career in his prime are superior to Lemieux 234 games with peak performances i believe are in St. Louis class, i dont know. Lemieux do bring other intangibles though that St. Louis does not.
Maybe you mean that that Parise-Linseman-Foligno line are supposed to play against Sedin-Petrov-Lemieux line? Good matchup, but i think you'll be at minus when all is said and done. You wont be able to get the puck off the europeans and Lemieux will run Parise over.

Quote:
I wouldn't say that my 3rd line has better players, I said they are offensively superior. Your 3rd line is an offensive blackhole.
I hav'nt said you did, it was BillyShoe that said that i did say mine was better.

Quote:
You may think that giving your 4th line barely any minutes hides there flaws, but all it does is increase the grind on your top players in what will inevitably be a physical series.
If you believe 17-19 minutes on my first three lines are too much i think you are judging it wrong, in that case you should worry more about your two guys getting 22 minutes. When it comes to my fourth lines flaws i think you are overcalling them, not the least in the playoffs. Both Bobby Schmautz and Marcel Bonin have peak performances not to be ashamed of, but short careers. I give them five minutes at ES.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 04-22-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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04-23-2013, 08:13 PM
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Minnesota wins in 5 Games.

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