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Old
04-21-2013, 06:24 PM
  #26
Ice Poutine
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Last time we brought up a rookie with close to no NHL experience it was some guy who had played only a measly six regular-season games!! And look at the mess it did!!


Good thing it was Ken Dryden tho...

Yes; I'd take a chance with Tinordi.

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04-21-2013, 06:27 PM
  #27
Mats NAslund
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Would love to see Tinordi play and step in the lineup with Markov.

Tinordi Markov
Subban Gorges
Diaz Boullion
Weber Drewiskie

PP1

Subban Markov

PP2

Subban Diaz

Subban should stay on for the full two minutes......

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04-21-2013, 06:28 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
Last time we brought up a rookie with close to no NHL experience it was some guy who had played only a measly six regular-season games!! And look at the mess it did!!


Good thing it was Ken Dryden tho...

Yes; I'd take a chance with Tinordi.
Last time it was Subban. 2 games of NHL experience.

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04-21-2013, 06:28 PM
  #29
Grant McCagg
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For those questioning bringing up a "big dman" for the playoffs and how it might hurt his development....Habs brought up another big rookie for the playoffs a couple of years after Dryden, a big rookie dman by the name of Robinson. Didn't hurt his development at all.

Late note - Ok - Larry split that season in the AHL/NHL and it was his second pro season...but close. Hey - it was 40 years ago. :-)

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Old
04-21-2013, 06:30 PM
  #30
habtastic
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I wanted Tinordi the whole time, but not because I thought he'd be dishing checks like Emelin. He is not a replacement for Emelin. In fact he has mostly different skills which I think COME from him being a rookie and keeping it simple. He made good passes, he helped retrieve the puck and had a pretty decent shot (remember the one tipped by Plek?) that was at the net. He might be able to move bodies, but we don't know for sure since he played when teams weren't at playoff intensity, it was awhile ago. Thing is, Habs wanted to fix the PP so they brought up lazy ass beaulieu (he'll fix that, but it is one of his weak points) and it ate up all the experience and practice time.

Now it's too late. Habs screwed up when they should have been training tinordi for this and didn't. I don't think it's wise to have him step into this situation and even if he played the last 3 games, imagine him playing his next to, hopefully, a wild bell centre. PK is the exception to the rule and even then, we had Hammer to be the stay at home guy, PK was brought in for other talents. He learned to play D later, but was still already good enough to play in the playoffs, albeit from the Pitt series onwards. Not sure we make that 1-3 comeback without Markov vs WSH.

I think LJV is playing well and I've never really felt that way. He's obviously learned from practicing with the team year in and year out. I believe he is still +/- 0, which says a lot given this team's performances.
MB got Drewiskie specifically for this, to be a solid 6th. That's what Tinordi is. NOT a hitter, not an experienced crease clearer yet, just a guy who will play a simple game. Drewiskie hasn't been able to do that consistently, which makes me wonder what Dudley was thinking, but playoffs are full of surprises that make us eat crow. So either LJV or Drew depending on the circumstance I guess. This ONLY cuz they wasted their time to train Tinordi. He can't just step in - he will quickly have a thread dedicated to him, and it won't be flattering, and it won't be his fault.

I don't think it'll hurt his development (why would it if he plays well???) - it'll hurt the Habs.

Please, let's not get carried away with comparisons to Big Bird. Who else played on that team BTW? Same as this team?

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04-21-2013, 06:34 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I did not say bring him in and throw him to the wolves for the playoffs.....I said audition him one last time for the playoffs. If he sucks...go to Plan C. Back in 1971..I recall a Habs rookie being auditioned before the playoffs..ended up winning the Conn Smythe. ;-)
Good point. If that is the case then I fully agree with your suggestion!

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04-21-2013, 06:34 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Emelin's presence is missed more than perhaps anyone could have predicted given the team's supposed defensive depth and overall consistency before his injury.

Markov and Emelin were the top pairing, but it's inherently obvious that things have not been the same since Emelin went down. He was a threat defensively in more ways than one. He kept the opposing forwards honest

Drewiski obviously wasn't the answer...just not enough talent there to make up for having no physical dimension. Not overly big or physical, less than average skater...he was picked up as a press box guy with character...a number one cheerleader, not someone thrust into a key role as he was after the injury to Emelin.

That said...with Weber and Diaz in the lineup, like last night... is there a shorter overall blueline in the league? Not a lot of size there..in fact no one who would be mistaken for a crease clearer. PK is capable of producing the odd big hit when he's mobile, but as far as standing in front of the net and clearing people out..he is not among the league's elite, and nor should he be expected to play that role...hell...he may win the Norris Trophy, and that would predominantly be because his offensive abilities.

It is important to have defencemen with long reach when it comes to defensive situations, in particular the power play. Just like the offensive lineman in football, defensive defencemen are in an advantageous position if they have a long wingspan; if you're 5-8 and have a 50-inch chest like the Cube you can't crosscheck a guy two feet away from you

This team is reeling...not coincidentally since Emelin was felled by injury. Gally and Chucky have given the team a boost at several pivotal points during the season with their rookie enthusiasm...

It's time to bring back the rookie who was solid on the point when he got his callup....in fact I thought he should never have been sent back. Tinordi brings elements to the position that this team seriously lacks at this time.

Price's confidence is shot right now...namely because no one is clearing the front of the net. Well....when you dress 6 dmen under 6-2 in today's NHL.....that is not going to win you a Cup, let alone a couple of playoff series no matter how much offensive talents they may possess.

Bring up the kid for this season-ending road trip and hand him the shutdown role. Pair him up with Gorges on the PK, hand him the keys and see what he does with it. If the Habs start giving up seven goals a game as opposed to the five or six they've had a propensity for allowing of late, then it's a failed experiment, and they go with the guys they've been crashing and burning with for the playoffs.
You describe the situation as it is. Very good points, exellent post. Agree with bringing Tinordi, so far anybody else failed miserably to replace Emelin.

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04-21-2013, 06:36 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
Last time we brought up a rookie with close to no NHL experience it was some guy who had played only a measly six regular-season games!! And look at the mess it did!!


Good thing it was Ken Dryden tho...

Yes; I'd take a chance with Tinordi.
Just because it has worked with some rookies in the past, like Ken Dryden, who turned out to be an elite goaltender... it doesn't mean that will always be the case for all defensemen.

Regardless, Grant was saying we should audition him for these last three games and see how that goes, and I fully agree with that proposal.

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04-21-2013, 06:40 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Emelin's presence is missed more than perhaps anyone could have predicted given the team's supposed defensive depth and overall consistency before his injury.

Markov and Emelin were the top pairing, but it's inherently obvious that things have not been the same since Emelin went down. He was a threat defensively in more ways than one. He kept the opposing forwards honest

Drewiski obviously wasn't the answer...just not enough talent there to make up for having no physical dimension. Not overly big or physical, less than average skater...he was picked up as a press box guy with character...a number one cheerleader, not someone thrust into a key role as he was after the injury to Emelin.

That said...with Weber and Diaz in the lineup, like last night... is there a shorter overall blueline in the league? Not a lot of size there..in fact no one who would be mistaken for a crease clearer. PK is capable of producing the odd big hit when he's mobile, but as far as standing in front of the net and clearing people out..he is not among the league's elite, and nor should he be expected to play that role...hell...he may win the Norris Trophy, and that would predominantly be because his offensive abilities.

It is important to have defencemen with long reach when it comes to defensive situations, in particular the power play. Just like the offensive lineman in football, defensive defencemen are in an advantageous position if they have a long wingspan; if you're 5-8 and have a 50-inch chest like the Cube you can't crosscheck a guy two feet away from you

This team is reeling...not coincidentally since Emelin was felled by injury. Gally and Chucky have given the team a boost at several pivotal points during the season with their rookie enthusiasm...

It's time to bring back the rookie who was solid on the point when he got his callup....in fact I thought he should never have been sent back. Tinordi brings elements to the position that this team seriously lacks at this time.

Price's confidence is shot right now...namely because no one is clearing the front of the net. Well....when you dress 6 dmen under 6-2 in today's NHL.....that is not going to win you a Cup, let alone a couple of playoff series no matter how much offensive talents they may possess.

Bring up the kid for this season-ending road trip and hand him the shutdown role. Pair him up with Gorges on the PK, hand him the keys and see what he does with it. If the Habs start giving up seven goals a game as opposed to the five or six they've had a propensity for allowing of late, then it's a failed experiment, and they go with the guys they've been crashing and burning with for the playoffs.
Emelin's presence isn't missed as much as you're hinting at. He was not the key to our defensive game. Heck, he wasn't even having that good of a season.
He was racking up more points, sure, and getting more ice time, but he was also often caught out of position in our zone.
He did bring a physical element but that has nothing to do with our current bad stretch.

Also, Markov-Emelin weren't the sole shutdown pair, PK-Gorges were used as so as well. Having two reliable pairs was one of our strengths. But that doesn't mean we were one injury away from a complete collapse. We weren't.

Our forwards aren't helping out the Dmen as much, they aren't competing as hard, and most importantly, our goaltending has been garbage.

No, it's not because Emelin isn't clearing the front that Price has no confidence.
Price has no confidence because he let in 3 goals in 4 shots, and two of which were absolute softies with nobody even in front of Price. Since the Leafs game, he's been really off. His butterfly is very weak at the moment, his five hole seems like the grand canyon, his positioning is very off, and his movements are slow. None of this has anything to do with missing Alexei Emelin, the master of our defense.

Yes, it absolutely is a coincidence that we started our bad stretch around the time we lost Emelin. It holds as much water as me saying it's because the guys clinched and they took their foot off the pedal, got their confidence messed up and now look like crap.


I wouldn't mind calling up Tinordi but that's only because I don't think what we have here is necessarily better. It's not because I think Tinordi will change anything.

We need our guys to battle a bit harder, tighten up the coverage, and more importantly, make some freaking saves.

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Old
04-21-2013, 06:42 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I wanted Tinordi the whole time, but not because I thought he'd be dishing checks like Emelin. He is not a replacement for Emelin. In fact he has mostly different skills which I think COME from him being a rookie and keeping it simple. He made good passes, he helped retrieve the puck and had a pretty decent shot (remember the one tipped by Plek?) that was at the net. He might be able to move bodies, but we don't know for sure since he played when teams weren't at playoff intensity, it was awhile ago. Thing is, Habs wanted to fix the PP so they brought up lazy ass beaulieu (he'll fix that, but it is one of his weak points) and it ate up all the experience and practice time.

Now it's too late. Habs screwed up when they should have been training tinordi for this and didn't. I don't think it's wise to have him step into this situation and even if he played the last 3 games, imagine him playing his next to, hopefully, a wild bell centre. PK is the exception to the rule and even then, we had Hammer to be the stay at home guy, PK was brought in for other talents. He learned to play D later, but was still already good enough to play in the playoffs, albeit from the Pitt series onwards. Not sure we make that 1-3 comeback without Markov vs WSH.

I think LJV is playing well and I've never really felt that way. He's obviously learned from practicing with the team year in and year out. I believe he is still +/- 0, which says a lot given this team's performances.
MB got Drewiskie specifically for this, to be a solid 6th. That's what Tinordi is. NOT a hitter, not an experienced crease clearer yet, just a guy who will play a simple game. Drewiskie hasn't been able to do that consistently, which makes me wonder what Dudley was thinking, but playoffs are full of surprises that make us eat crow. So either LJV or Drew depending on the circumstance I guess. This ONLY cuz they wasted their time to train Tinordi. He can't just step in - he will quickly have a thread dedicated to him, and it won't be flattering, and it won't be his fault.

I don't think it'll hurt his development (why would it if he plays well???) - it'll hurt the Habs.

Please, let's not get carried away with comparisons to Big Bird. Who else played on that team BTW? Same as this team?
I'm glad someone else has a similar mindset. I agree with your concern for playing Tinordi in the playoffs. I also agree with your point in that we made a mistake in not training him for the playoffs, although to be fair, the Habs management didn't know which of the three rookie defensemen would have the best NHL showing.

Sure, Tinordi has the potential to be successful in the playoffs... I just don't see it being likely.

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04-21-2013, 06:45 PM
  #36
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OP said it well, play Tinordi and sooner than later please. He's our future not Drew or Weber. AND, he's a different flavour for the blueline menu. Can't put together a playoff meal with three courses of leafy salad ffs.

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04-21-2013, 06:51 PM
  #37
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I really don't think the team has much better choice but to recall him.

Yes Kriss E..Emelin really IS missed defensively. I'm not saying Tinordi is the answer...but right now he is the best choice I think. It cannot hurt to give him another audition. i thought he looked good first time around....I do know the team wasn't letting in 6 gpg when he was playing that's for sure.

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04-21-2013, 06:55 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
Last time we brought up a rookie with close to no NHL experience it was some guy who had played only a measly six regular-season games!! And look at the mess it did!!


Good thing it was Ken Dryden tho...

Yes; I'd take a chance with Tinordi.
Actually it was PK

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04-21-2013, 07:05 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Emelin's presence isn't missed as much as you're hinting at. He was not the key to our defensive game. Heck, he wasn't even having that good of a season.
He was racking up more points, sure, and getting more ice time, but he was also often caught out of position in our zone.
He did bring a physical element but that has nothing to do with our current bad stretch.

Also, Markov-Emelin weren't the sole shutdown pair, PK-Gorges were used as so as well. Having two reliable pairs was one of our strengths. But that doesn't mean we were one injury away from a complete collapse. We weren't.

Our forwards aren't helping out the Dmen as much, they aren't competing as hard, and most importantly, our goaltending has been garbage.

No, it's not because Emelin isn't clearing the front that Price has no confidence.
Price has no confidence because he let in 3 goals in 4 shots, and two of which were absolute softies with nobody even in front of Price. Since the Leafs game, he's been really off. His butterfly is very weak at the moment, his five hole seems like the grand canyon, his positioning is very off, and his movements are slow. None of this has anything to do with missing Alexei Emelin, the master of our defense.

Yes, it absolutely is a coincidence that we started our bad stretch around the time we lost Emelin. It holds as much water as me saying it's because the guys clinched and they took their foot off the pedal, got their confidence messed up and now look like crap.


I wouldn't mind calling up Tinordi but that's only because I don't think what we have here is necessarily better. It's not because I think Tinordi will change anything.

We need our guys to battle a bit harder, tighten up the coverage, and more importantly, make some freaking saves.
I agree, goaltending has been average and calling up Tinordi will probably make little difference, but it's worth a shot. It's the year of the rookies, who ever thought gallagher would be playing on the first line this season?

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04-21-2013, 07:20 PM
  #40
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I don't think Emelin is missed for his stats. He is missed because Markov needs a physical presence to back him up and because without him opposing forwards go into the zone with their heads down, no fear.

I suspect a number of other players are banged up, though. Plekanec is key and he hasn't been doing much lately. Gorges is not his usual self. Markov is having problems, but then he really needs a hitter (get Komisarek if the Leafs will split his salary) to balance his play. Subban is no where near as involved the last half dozen games, he got some points but he did not play physically on defence or carry the puck, either Therien has neutered him or he's hurt. Prust is nowhere near the presence he was before his injury.

I'd suggest putting pretty much all of the above on IR and recalling whoever is necessary from Hamilton to make up the difference. Give Plekanec, Prust, and pretty much the whole defence other than Diaz who needs ice time a rest. If you're going to get blown out at least do it while resting the key guys for the playoffs. Plus give Ellis a try, let Tinordi and Pateryn see some more NHL action. It can't hurt considering the results the last few games.

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04-21-2013, 07:29 PM
  #41
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For the last 3 games of the season, what could it possibly hurt? If it doesn't work out, you send him back. I do, however, agree that he's probably the best shot we have at some physicality and size on the blue line. We're not going to get it from Weber or Whiskey.

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04-21-2013, 07:42 PM
  #42
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When he went down Emelin had about the same number of hits as Markov, Subban and Gorges combined. Those three combined. How about that? And these were hits that generally rattled opponents and separated them from the puck. Sorry but I can't accept the argument that a small team losing their main physical presence on D is no big deal. And we have been outscored terribly without Emelin.

Tinordi is no Emelin but I hope he gets the call -- what do we have to lose?

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04-21-2013, 07:46 PM
  #43
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Markov-Subban
Gorges-Diaz
Bouillon-Tinordi

Do it.

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04-21-2013, 07:47 PM
  #44
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It is amazing to me how management has not been able to realize that size and toughness is needed on the back end. Say what you want, but Gainey did add Gill and Hamr as well as Mara (didn't work out, but at the time was a good signing). Gauthier got rid of all of them and replaced them with softer, smaller players. Now Bergie has had trouble addressing this as well.

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04-21-2013, 07:49 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I really don't think the team has much better choice but to recall him.

Yes Kriss E..Emelin really IS missed defensively. I'm not saying Tinordi is the answer...but right now he is the best choice I think. It cannot hurt to give him another audition. i thought he looked good first time around....I do know the team wasn't letting in 6 gpg when he was playing that's for sure.
It's one thing to say we're missing his physical presence, it's another thing to say he's the reason why we allowed 25goals in 5 games. He's not the reason why we suck now, he simply isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLP View Post
When he went down Emelin had about the same number of hits as Markov, Subban and Gorges combined. Those three combined. How about that? And these were hits that generally rattled opponents and separated them from the puck. Sorry but I can't accept the argument that a small team losing their main physical presence on D is no big deal. And we have been outscored terribly without Emelin.

Tinordi is no Emelin but I hope he gets the call -- what do we have to lose?
Again, it's not because we're missing his physicality that he's the reason why we've been playing horribly.
That's absolutely ridiculous.

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04-21-2013, 08:04 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Emelin's presence is missed more than perhaps anyone could have predicted given the team's supposed defensive depth and overall consistency before his injury.

Markov and Emelin were the top pairing, but it's inherently obvious that things have not been the same since Emelin went down. He was a threat defensively in more ways than one. He kept the opposing forwards honest

Drewiski obviously wasn't the answer...just not enough talent there to make up for having no physical dimension. Not overly big or physical, less than average skater...he was picked up as a press box guy with character...a number one cheerleader, not someone thrust into a key role as he was after the injury to Emelin.

That said...with Weber and Diaz in the lineup, like last night... is there a shorter overall blueline in the league? Not a lot of size there..in fact no one who would be mistaken for a crease clearer. PK is capable of producing the odd big hit when he's mobile, but as far as standing in front of the net and clearing people out..he is not among the league's elite, and nor should he be expected to play that role...hell...he may win the Norris Trophy, and that would predominantly be because his offensive abilities.

It is important to have defencemen with long reach when it comes to defensive situations, in particular the power play. Just like the offensive lineman in football, defensive defencemen are in an advantageous position if they have a long wingspan; if you're 5-8 and have a 50-inch chest like the Cube you can't crosscheck a guy two feet away from you

This team is reeling...not coincidentally since Emelin was felled by injury. Gally and Chucky have given the team a boost at several pivotal points during the season with their rookie enthusiasm...

It's time to bring back the rookie who was solid on the point when he got his callup....in fact I thought he should never have been sent back. Tinordi brings elements to the position that this team seriously lacks at this time.

Price's confidence is shot right now...namely because no one is clearing the front of the net. Well....when you dress 6 dmen under 6-2 in today's NHL.....that is not going to win you a Cup, let alone a couple of playoff series no matter how much offensive talents they may possess.

Bring up the kid for this season-ending road trip and hand him the shutdown role. Pair him up with Gorges on the PK, hand him the keys and see what he does with it. If the Habs start giving up seven goals a game as opposed to the five or six they've had a propensity for allowing of late, then it's a failed experiment, and they go with the guys they've been crashing and burning with for the playoffs.
I agree with almost everything you say but Drewiske is listed at 6'2 and 220 pounds. He may not play like it but he does have the size. I know he has his limitations but when you compare him to Gorges, there isn't a lot to pick and choose. Gorges has more experience and has a lot more opportunity to play but Drewiske has made better decisions with the puck, in many cases, than Gorges. He would be a good #7 guy to have on the team.

I know Gorges is a heart and soul guy but he is also a tweener... not big, not particularly physical, not a great passer, he shot rarely gets through but he gives it his all and blocks a lot of shots... a great skill set for a 3rd pairing defenseman and a PK specialist but he plays top four minutes and gets paid for top four minutes.

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04-21-2013, 08:05 PM
  #47
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OP said it well, play Tinordi and sooner than later please. He's our future not Drew or Weber. AND, he's a different flavour for the blueline menu. Can't put together a playoff meal with three courses of leafy salad ffs.

He's not a different flavour than Drewiskie at this point in his career and has less experience. Not saying one is definitely better than the other, but I think going with a more veteran guy is the way to go. Tinordi was awesome, but he also didn't face a ton of adversity. The team was playing well and while you could argue it was because of it, it was simply because everyone was on the same page and helping out. I really think if you put Drew in the same position, he would be a hell of a lot better than he has been. Some of the goals he's blown in coverage - I don't see an AHL Tinordi necessarily making. We're salivating a little too early. He COULD be the guy, for sure, but I don't think it's wise to risk it. Go with the dude who's exactly the same but with more NHL experience and btw who can shoot from the blueline.


That's IF you're looking for the stay at home simple pass guy and not what LJV brings.

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04-21-2013, 08:06 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Markov-Subban
Gorges-Diaz
Bouillon-Tinordi

Do it.
Do you mean for the balance of this year or for next year. It's probably not a bad option for the rest of this year but I hope we can do better for next year.

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04-21-2013, 08:10 PM
  #49
HCH
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Originally Posted by dcyhabs View Post
I don't think Emelin is missed for his stats. He is missed because Markov needs a physical presence to back him up and because without him opposing forwards go into the zone with their heads down, no fear.

I suspect a number of other players are banged up, though. Plekanec is key and he hasn't been doing much lately. Gorges is not his usual self. Markov is having problems, but then he really needs a hitter (get Komisarek if the Leafs will split his salary) to balance his play.
The Leafs will probably buy out Komi. If you really want him you could probably get him cheap this summer (maybe a contract like Redden's) but do you really want him. Until then, we can't get him. The trading deadline is past.

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04-21-2013, 08:17 PM
  #50
JLP
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's one thing to say we're missing his physical presence, it's another thing to say he's the reason why we allowed 25goals in 5 games. He's not the reason why we suck now, he simply isn't.

Again, it's not because we're missing his physicality that he's the reason why we've been playing horribly.
That's absolutely ridiculous.
I think it is more logical than ridiculous. If you say "we suck now" and then look for reasons why, that process will not illuminate a single shining path that leads to Emelin's loss, I agree.

But this is a Tinordi thread and the idea seems to be we could use a physical D to compensate for Emelin's loss. Hits are important I think you will agree, and as I posted above Emelin had about as many hits as Subban, Gorges and Markov's combined total. That's huge. Also believe we'd have to agree that come playoffs the games' physical aspect ramps up.

Ergo we hope Tinordi can fill the Emelin void, as Weber et al can't.

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