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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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Old
04-21-2013, 03:25 PM
  #301
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I did, did you not read my post, here it is again.



All 3 things come into play, Wayne's skill, the Oilers system of all out offense and who cares about defense and the running up of scores all goes to explaining it.

It's kind of like Orr's domiance and video game states, part skill, part team and league situation.

I won't break down the parts as it's impossible to do so, but it's fair to say that skill was the major factor for both guys.
And apparently you missed Phil's response which all but negates yours

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I was being a tad sarcastic as the PPG thing is more often than not thrown in the face of Sid, and probably will be for those that don't appreciate him that much, for the rest of his career.

Of course the more important PPG reference to Sid is his contemporaries which is still excellent.

And I'll state it again both Mario and Wayne were better offensive talents than Sid was and ever will be, but the difference is amplified by the scoring differences in the eras as well.

Throw in 2 way play and Sid narrows the gap quite a bit as well.
Like hell it does! You can barely make a case for Dats in his absolute prime to hold close to the same value as Gretzky in his LA years.
Now you believe Sid's defensively responsible play (NOT 2-way play) makes up that much ground on Gretz and Mario...


Quote:
We will have to wait for Sid's career to wind out, there still is a good 10 plus years left and he has a very good chance of top 5 of all time, and a chance to pass Mario for overall value, health permitting IMO.
Yeah.....that ship has already sailed.
By Mario's 8th season (only up to 91/92), he already had 2 Cups, 3 Art Ross', 2 Conn Smythe's and 2 Pearson's and would have, if it was around, had 2 Rocket Richard's. This was all while competing with Gretzky, not OV, not Malkin, not Thornton, not the Sedin's!!!

He had 1014 points to Sid's 665 and 408 goals to Sid's 238.
Adjusted for era or not, it's not close.

Not to mention Sid still has a long way to go to even be in the same conversation with the likes of Richard, Beliveau and Hull for "overall value". Let alone with the Big 4!

And people wonder why some think Sid is overrated heh
Mario however, is NOT overrated. Which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about BTW!!!


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-21-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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Old
04-21-2013, 04:17 PM
  #302
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Shockingly, this turned into a Mario vs. Wayne debate. The answer to the actual question is no. At the very worst, he's "overrated" by about 4 spots on the all-time list.

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04-21-2013, 04:21 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by JWells16 View Post
Shockingly, this turned into a Mario vs. Wayne debate. The answer to the actual question is no. At the very worst, he's "overrated" by about 4 spots on the all-time list.
It's not really all that shocking. The only way Mario is overrated is if he's being put over Wayne but threads like this will ALWAYS bring out the handful of partisans that who do.

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04-21-2013, 04:32 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by madinsomniac View Post
As was said before by Bowman... Lemieux was the most physically talented player ever. He wasnt the most driven, like Crosby, or the greatest, like Gretzky. He was probably the most dangerous goal scorer ever, was playing against teams tackling him since 89. was constantly hacked and hit late without the protection that other superstars got. He certainly didnt work out or take well to coaching. Once he refered to his diet as holding off on the ketchup with his fries... He ran bowman out of town and straight to Detroit. He was far from the perfect hockey player, But he was built to play in any era and his hockey sense was as good as anyone who ever played.

Note that he was 3rd all time in goals per game and 1st all time in goals per game in the playoffs, and he played a serious amount of time injured in the dead puck era...
Except for Gretzky....who was miles ahead.

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04-21-2013, 04:35 PM
  #305
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Having followed Lemieux's entire career, I think it's ridiculous to suggest he's overrated. Lemieux is rated right where he should be - among the greatest players to ever play the game, and a legitimate challenger to Gretzky as the greatest talent to ever play. I remember Gretzky even saying himself, that talent wise, no player touches Lemieux.

It should be noted that Lemieux lost some prime years due to his battle with cancer. And when comparing numbers, during his time the league average scoring was actually down from the early 80's where Gretzky racked up his best years.

Here's a discussion breaking down the stats during that time, and a comparison of Gretzky and Lemieux:

http://suite101.com/article/the-grea...emieux-a106266

Quote:
Whether one prefers Gretzky or Lemieux is a matter of opinion. What can’t be argued is Gretzky dominated in an era when it was far easier to score goals. And when the stats are adjusted to reflect the changing league conditions, Lemieux’s numbers are superior. If not for Lemieux’s troubled health, there would be no debate.
That's not to say that Lemieux should be considered greatest ever over Gretzky. To achieve that recognition, health and durability have to be part of the equation. But when it comes to talent and talent alone, there's definitely an argument for Lemieux.

Take away the health concerns, and switch their careers - Lemieux playing in the early 80s, and on the stacked Oilers teams where Gretzky put up those unbelievable numbers, and Lemieux could well be the statistical leader in all the categories that Gretzky holds. He was truly an unbelievable player.

for the record, I'm biased here as well, as Lemieux was my favorite player growing up, and often argued with the "Gretzky-lovers" that Lemieux was the better player.

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04-21-2013, 04:38 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
While I totally agree that we shouldn't expect a 35 year old Lemieux to play like a 27 year old Lemieux, or heck even post cancer, completely battered '97 lemieux, if any other player went from scoring at a 1.77ppg pace (and to be fair, there are NONE) to just under 0.95 during the most significant stretch of games, it would be considered a disappointment. Not a BAD disappointment, but one would conclude that that player performed below expectations. And it's not like he made up for it with Datsyuk like defensive work either. Again, I DON'T mean to pick on Lemieux at all, I think he's worthy of GOAT talk and I know it's not all about stats, but with Lemieux, part of his greatness comes from his statistical dominance over his peers, so I guess it's worth mentioning as a cursory exercise in rhetoric.
Yes, I would have liked to have seen him take things over a bit more in 2001. No question. It doesn't bother me as much as, say, 1996 or 1993. Those were years the Pens lost to downright mediocre teams. That bothers me about him more than 2001.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Unless one is a "all eras are equal" type of guy adjusted stats helps us put into context of "how great" Wayne's goal scoring was.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_season.html

Wayne still has two top 10 placings here but it helps to show how era can inflate or deflate raw counting stats.

See, here's the thing when it comes to adjusted stats. According to these stats, Hejduk's 2003 season where he scored 50 goals is equal to Grtezky's where he scored 73 in 1985 and 71 in 1983. Stamkos in 2012 is equal to Gretzky in 1982? And on the same level as Gretzky in 1984? Come on, that's just shortchanging them. Stamkos had a wonderful season last year and 60 goals but he beat out Malkin, more of a playmaker by 10 goals while Gretzky beat out Bossy by 28 goals and Goulet by 31 goals the other year. Maybe Malkin is equal in the goal scoring parade to Goulet, but not Bossy. That's where adjusted stats fail - big time. You are far better off to look at how a player performed that particular season against his peers and WHO he outperformed. That tells you what a great season he had. Other than that we are left to believe with adjusted stats that Jonathan Cheechoo in 2006 has the same amount of adjusted goals as some guys who are just flat out better than he was.

Just look at how Gretzky was lapping the rest of the field time and time again. That's just unheard of. Adjusted stats can spin things whichever way they want but at the end of the day the people who were there know what they saw and they know that no one has done that quite like Gretzky since.

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04-21-2013, 04:45 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Just look at how Gretzky was lapping the rest of the field time and time again. That's just unheard of. Adjusted stats can spin things whichever way they want but at the end of the day the people who were there know what they saw and they know that no one has done that quite like Gretzky since.
Yeah but Stamkos was lapping the field as well last year. Malkin ten back is one thing, the rest of the field had what, 41?

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04-21-2013, 05:03 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Phil, the 80's goalies couldn't stop as many pucks as later on, looking at save % and the number of 50 goal scorers will tell you that.

In the first 7 seasons since the lockout there have been exactly 17 50 plus goal scorers.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

From 80-86 Wayne start in the league there were 57.

Quite simply it was easier to score goals in the 80's due to the conditions of the NHL at the time.

Wayne was the most skilled player of the time and also played in a system that let him play all out offense and even run up scores on teams.

Some guys who weren't really the greatest of all time scored over 5o goals in the 80's as well as stars.
Yes. But the point is.... How many scored 92? 87? 50 goals in 39 games? 153 points in 50 games to start a season? 100 goals in one season including playoffs? AVERAGED over 200 points for 6 seasons

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04-21-2013, 07:53 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
Here's a discussion breaking down the stats during that time, and a comparison of Gretzky and Lemieux:

http://suite101.com/article/the-grea...emieux-a106266

Whether one prefers Gretzky or Lemieux is a matter of opinion. What can’t be argued is Gretzky dominated in an era when it was far easier to score goals. And when the stats are adjusted to reflect the changing league conditions, Lemieux’s numbers are superior. If not for Lemieux’s troubled health, there would be no debate.
That article is ludicrous.

Giving Lemieux perfect health lets him catch up because of Gretzky's 682 post 1991 games where he had already suffered the back injury and was over 30. Even then, using HR's adjusted points, Wayne Gretzky would have better adjusted PPG career numbers than Mario Lemieux, if he had retired in 1998 instead of 1999, despite playing 612 post 1991 games, which is far more than Lemieux played over 30 (under 30 too come to think of it...)

If you were to give Lemieux 80 games at the adjusted PPG pace for every season he played, and toss in another 48 games at his 1996 pace to compensate for 1995, (to give him the benefit of the higher season between 1994 and 1996) FantasyLemieux gets 2288 points in 1408 games. Through 1998 Gretzky scored 2405 adjusted points through 1417 games.

If FantasyLemieux played 80 games every year maintaining his AdjPPG pace for the whole year in a constant scoring environment, he couldn't match a real life Wayne Gretzky who has to deal with injuries through 1400 games played.

Using HR's numbers, Gretzky's best Adjusted PPG season (1983-84) would still beat Lemieux's (92-93). To suggest there would be no debate when peak Gretzky's the better point scorer is a stretch to say the least. It's akin to saying Mike Bossy's a better goal scorer than Wayne and Mario and there can be no debate because the other two had their GPG averages drop due to age.

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04-21-2013, 08:09 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And apparently you missed Phil's response which all but negates yours
Actually Phil has an opinion and didn't address 2 parts of the wayne equation that I brought up.

Just becasue you agree with him doesn't negate anyone's opinion.



Quote:
Like hell it does! You can barely make a case for Dats in his absolute prime to hold close to the same value as Gretzky in his LA years.
The case is very strong that Dats was more valuable overall from age 28 on compared to Wayne.

Once again your focus on only one part, offensive, is what's clouding your judgment and evaluation here IMO.


Quote:
Now you believe Sid's defensively responsible play (NOT 2-way play) makes up that much ground on Gretz and Mario...
So are you trying to say that Sid's two way play, defensive play, whatever you want to call it has no value?

Once again this isn't only about scoring points, that's good for fantasy hockey, in the NHL everything matters for actually winning.

I think sid has lost too much time to injuries to make up the entire gap on Wayne but Mario isn't considered as much of a winner as Wayne is and has time missed as well.

Sid certainly could close the gap on Mario as a player.

As a fantasy hockey legend probably not.















Quote:
He had 1014 points to Sid's 665 and 408 goals to Sid's 238.
Adjusted for era or not, it's not close.
Let's adjust it for era shall we?

Both players after their 1st 7 seasons.

Sid 470-239-395-634
Mario 453-302-427-729

After Mario's first 7 seasons he played only 76,70, 67,64,60 in his 4 most healthy seasons.

In the playoffs sid has a line of 68-33-57-90 plus 19, Mario in 2 years has 34-28-35-63 plus 13.

Mario has a great 8th season with a 64-44-87-131 line (39-77-116 adjusted) and his 2nd and last SC with a great 15-16-18-34 line (we ahve yet to see Sid's line.

The fact of the matter is that Sid has made the playoffs in 7 of his first 8 seasons compared to Mario only making it in his 5th,7th and 8th seasons.

Sid has lots of time to make up that gap.

Quote:
Not to mention Sid still has a long way to go to even be in the same conversation with the likes of Richard, Beliveau and Hull for "overall value". Let alone with the Big 4!
Yes sid does but he is arguably ahead of all 3 of those guys at the same age in time so it's not like it's impossible or even unlikely.

Quote:
And people wonder why some think Sid is overrated heh
Mario however, is NOT overrated. Which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about BTW!!!
Mario is over rated IMO because people tend to only look at his offensive stats and not his overall game.

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04-21-2013, 08:24 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
Having followed Lemieux's entire career, I think it's ridiculous to suggest he's overrated. Lemieux is rated right where he should be - among the greatest players to ever play the game, and a legitimate challenger to Gretzky as the greatest talent to ever play. I remember Gretzky even saying himself, that talent wise, no player touches Lemieux.

It should be noted that Lemieux lost some prime years due to his battle with cancer. And when comparing numbers, during his time the league average scoring was actually down from the early 80's where Gretzky racked up his best years.

Here's a discussion breaking down the stats during that time, and a comparison of Gretzky and Lemieux:

http://suite101.com/article/the-grea...emieux-a106266



That's not to say that Lemieux should be considered greatest ever over Gretzky. To achieve that recognition, health and durability have to be part of the equation. But when it comes to talent and talent alone, there's definitely an argument for Lemieux.

Take away the health concerns, and switch their careers - Lemieux playing in the early 80s, and on the stacked Oilers teams where Gretzky put up those unbelievable numbers, and Lemieux could well be the statistical leader in all the categories that Gretzky holds. He was truly an unbelievable player.

for the record, I'm biased here as well, as Lemieux was my favorite player growing up, and often argued with the "Gretzky-lovers" that Lemieux was the better player.
That article is guilty of using "half truth" and "spin" to twist the perception of the reader. One example: it uses Gretzky's record 215 point season as his "Standard PPG average of 2.69" -- when we know that is is not his best PPG average year (which was 2.77 PPG in 83-84). In fact, in 83-84, he had a 3 PPG average before his injury at the end of his 51 game point scoring streak. If he hadn't been injured, he "may have had" 240 points in 80 games.....just like Lemieux "may have had" broken Gretzky's scoring records if he had not been injured. See, this is the problem: If we are to give Lemieux the "what ifs", we have to give Gretzky the "what ifs" as well....and fantasy Gretzky destroys fantasy Lemieux any way you slice it.

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04-21-2013, 08:54 PM
  #312
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Mario might have been more Aesthetically pleasing than Wayne to some, but as far as most effective. He doesn't come close, really. If we give Mario the benefits of not being injured he still comes up short.

To answer the question, no he is not overrated. He is the 3rd best forward ever, perhaps 2nd, however, he has no case for first. That belongs to the great one.

To me, if you use the balance of longevity, dominance over peers, career, peak, prime. Not even Orr can unseat Gretzky. Their peaks are comparable and even if I agree that Orr had the higher peak, which I don't, Gretzky's career value doubles his. If we to use the same criteria for all players, I think even Howe and perhaps Mario have a case over Orr, but if the question is who was the better player at their best, Orr could perhaps usurp the great one. Not in my opinion, but I'm not greatly opposed to those who view it this way, but if we're doing an all-time list and scoring players based on the same criteria, ie combination of peak/prime, career, longevity, there is no way Orr comes out ahead.

Gretzky's peak is only matched by Orr, Gretzkys career is only bested by howe. Gretzky leads in every other category and is at worst 1b in those he loses imo.

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04-21-2013, 09:20 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Actually Phil has an opinion and didn't address 2 parts of the wayne equation that I brought up.

Just becasue you agree with him doesn't negate anyone's opinion.
I post a lot on this board so I don't always keep track, but tell me, what 2 points weren't addressed?

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah but Stamkos was lapping the field as well last year. Malkin ten back is one thing, the rest of the field had what, 41?
If we're going to do that and ignore the next best goal scorer..............
1982 - Gretzky 92 Maruk 60
1983 - Gretzky 71 Bossy 60
1984 - Gretzky 87 Kerr 54
1985 - Gretzky 73 Bossy 58
1987 - Gretzky 62 Lemieux/Kurri 54

Now I think you know you are fishing a bit here when you bring up stuff like that.

Stamkos had a fine year last year from a goal scoring perspective. However he's going to need a ton more of those to ever get lumped with the Great One even from a goal scoring level

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04-21-2013, 10:12 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The case is very strong that Dats was more valuable overall from age 28 on compared to Wayne.
...
Mario is over rated IMO because people tend to only look at his offensive stats and not his overall game.
I agree with Phil about adjusted points overcompensating for era among the leaders from Gretzky's era. But let's give Datsyuk some help and use them anyways.

Gretzky scored 1.77 adjPPG from 1989-91. Pavel Datsyuk scored 1.21 adjPPG from 2008-10, or 45 adjPPG per 82 games.

Unless you can convince me that Pavel Datsyuk, and Pavel Datsyuk alone, was personally responsible for preventing 45 adjGA each season, I don't see how you have a case.

In 2008 (45adjGA=43GA) that means the Wings, who had Lidstrom/Rafalski/Zetterberg et al, with Osgood and Hasek in net, would have surrendered 227 GA instead of a league low 184, which is a huge increase (a fall from 1st to 15th).

It means the 1991 Kings only allow an NHL-low 202 GA (45adjGA=52 GA), Kelly Hrudey wins the Jennings, and Datsyuk has half as many TGA as Gretzky did (58 instead of 110).

I don't think either of those scenarios makes sense. The Oilers saw no huge improvement in GA to compensate for lost GF after Gretzky was traded. Faulting Lemieux and Gretzky for high GA numbers on teams that were giving up high GA numbers anyways seems like it's the wrong approach. They could play the exact same way as individuals and allow fewer GA if Nick Lidstrom and Domink Hasek were behind them. That would tell us very little about their individual play though.

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04-22-2013, 12:00 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I post a lot on this board so I don't always keep track, but tell me, what 2 points weren't addressed?



If we're going to do that and ignore the next best goal scorer..............
1982 - Gretzky 92 Maruk 60
1983 - Gretzky 71 Bossy 60
1984 - Gretzky 87 Kerr 54
1985 - Gretzky 73 Bossy 58
1987 - Gretzky 62 Lemieux/Kurri 54

Now I think you know you are fishing a bit here when you bring up stuff like that.

Stamkos had a fine year last year from a goal scoring perspective. However he's going to need a ton more of those to ever get lumped with the Great One even from a goal scoring level
Yeah but come on man, Malkin is ONE player. Better to go by the field and by doing that Stamkos had almost 50 percent more goals. That is lapping the field. By this i dont mean Stamkos was a better player than Gretzky, but rather i'd like to direct everbody back to that Hockey-Reference link somebody posted with the all-time single season adjusted goals top-list. Gretzky's goal scoring was nothing compared to what those hard number huggers makes it out to be. Same of course, but to a significant smaller degree when it comes to points.

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04-22-2013, 12:03 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
Having followed Lemieux's entire career, I think it's ridiculous to suggest he's overrated. Lemieux is rated right where he should be - among the greatest players to ever play the game, and a legitimate challenger to Gretzky as the greatest talent to ever play. I remember Gretzky even saying himself, that talent wise, no player touches Lemieux.

It should be noted that Lemieux lost some prime years due to his battle with cancer. And when comparing numbers, during his time the league average scoring was actually down from the early 80's where Gretzky racked up his best years.

Here's a discussion breaking down the stats during that time, and a comparison of Gretzky and Lemieux:

http://suite101.com/article/the-grea...emieux-a106266



That's not to say that Lemieux should be considered greatest ever over Gretzky. To achieve that recognition, health and durability have to be part of the equation. But when it comes to talent and talent alone, there's definitely an argument for Lemieux.

Take away the health concerns, and switch their careers - Lemieux playing in the early 80s, and on the stacked Oilers teams where Gretzky put up those unbelievable numbers, and Lemieux could well be the statistical leader in all the categories that Gretzky holds. He was truly an unbelievable player.


for the record, I'm biased here as well, as Lemieux was my favorite player growing up, and often argued with the "Gretzky-lovers" that Lemieux was the better player.
If my mother would have balls she would be my father.

The bolded part is just plain ridiculous. You can't just switch other players career years, teams, health etc. and expect that conclude in to any kind of reasonable result. That was the same kind of attempt when some poster took out Ovechkin's best year thus far and tried to prove him to be equal offensive player to Kovalchuk and Heatley. Your's was just worse.

In real life, Lemieux is behind Gretzky in career, prime and peak. There is arguments to be made that for a short stretch of games Lemeiux could have been better. I don't think that, but there is a real argument. But when you expand the games to one full season it comes painfully obvious to see which of these two players comes out winning.

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04-22-2013, 12:20 AM
  #317
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I post a lot on this board so I don't always keep track, but tell me, what 2 points weren't addressed?
The team and league situation.

you have later addressed the adjusted scoring situation but you don't seem to like it because of the players it affects.

That's a bit of a problem IMO as there is no way around the league scoring average. One player or even one team can't affect it all that much, it's a sign of the times and if we put out prejudices ahead of the actual numbers then it's a problem.

Wayne's skill level is most of the scoring of goals and pints to be sure but it's not like his team situation of trying to simply outscore every other team is the norm for history either.

Add on top of that guys like Denis Maruk hitting 50 (62 his top year) goals 2 times and the league in the 80's was easier to score in, to say otherwise is simply not true. How to measure the 2 things other than Wayne's talent though is very debatable.

Quote:
Stamkos had a fine year last year from a goal scoring perspective. However he's going to need a ton more of those to ever get lumped with the Great One even from a goal scoring level
It's too early to tell but his top 10 finishes and % of 2nd place might get him closer than you think career wise.

There is also the point of him competing in the era with the best of the best for his entire career which might be a small point but it will affect every player at some point in their careers (for Stamkos it will be his entire career for Wayne mostly in his 30's)

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04-22-2013, 12:59 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I agree with Phil about adjusted points overcompensating for era among the leaders from Gretzky's era. But let's give Datsyuk some help and use them anyways.

Gretzky scored 1.77 adjPPG from 1989-91. Pavel Datsyuk scored 1.21 adjPPG from 2008-10, or 45 adjPPG per 82 games.
first of all how about comparing both guys at the same ages instead of Wayne at 28-30 and Dats at 29-31? The PPG is alo benificial to Wayne as his total adjsuted Points over those 3 seasons is 405 which is 135 points/season to dats 293 which is 97, a spread of 42 points.

Most of the point advantage for Wayne is on the PP where he is the focal point in LA, while Detroit plays a more democratic PP.

Either way the league averages and totals for PP scoring was higher in the earlier Wayne time period but about 2% points but not sure how much of an impact we can gather there.

The ESGF and ESGA pretty much suggest that Dats has enough impact to reach your total though.

I don't have the ESGF/ESGA data here, I think I recylcled it, but Wayne is among the worst in LA while Dats is one of the best in Detroit, despite facing other teams top lines.

Quote:
Unless you can convince me that Pavel Datsyuk, and Pavel Datsyuk alone, was personally responsible for preventing 45 adjGA each season, I don't see how you have a case.

In 2008 (45adjGA=43GA) that means the Wings, who had Lidstrom/Rafalski/Zetterberg et al, with Osgood and Hasek in net, would have surrendered 227 GA instead of a league low 184, which is a huge increase (a fall from 1st to 15th).

It means the 1991 Kings only allow an NHL-low 202 GA (45adjGA=52 GA), Kelly Hrudey wins the Jennings, and Datsyuk has half as many TGA as Gretzky did (58 instead of 110).
The first part of detroit letting in that many GA less is improbable I will give you that, but are you trying to tell me that it wasn't other factors other than Wayne that lead to the Kings being 4th in GA in 91 after being 18th in GA in 90?

Don't try to tell me that at age 30 Waqne found a defensive game, there were other factors in play for the turn around.

Quote:
I don't think either of those scenarios makes sense. The Oilers saw no huge improvement in GA to compensate for lost GF after Gretzky was traded. Faulting Lemieux and Gretzky for high GA numbers on teams that were giving up high GA numbers anyways seems like it's the wrong approach. They could play the exact same way as individuals and allow fewer GA if Nick Lidstrom and Domink Hasek were behind them. That would tell us very little about their individual play though.
Jimmy Carson was the only position player that played with the Kings that went over to Edmonton in the trade.

going to LA was Gretzky, McSorley and Krushelnyski, it would be unexpected to see the Oilers GA decrease with those 3 guys going over and Jimmy Carson going back to Edmonton.

I know Marty Gelinas was part of the trade and I like him as a player but........

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04-22-2013, 05:39 AM
  #319
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Another one of these threads being hi-jacked?

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Old
04-22-2013, 07:24 AM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Actually Phil has an opinion and didn't address 2 parts of the wayne equation that I brought up.

Just becasue you agree with him doesn't negate anyone's opinion.
Ummm...I'm pretty sure Phil DID cover your points.
First, the Oiler's weren't the only team playing wide open hockey so that negates the league thing.
Second, the Isle's scored a whopping 385 goals (only 32 behind Edmonton btw) and all Bossy mustered during that was 64 goals to Gretzky's 92. Negating the team thing.


Quote:
The case is very strong that Dats was more valuable overall from age 28 on compared to Wayne.

Once again your focus on only one part, offensive, is what's clouding your judgment and evaluation here IMO.
No, that data only showed that Dats has a case for being more valuable overall in the one year.
The rest of it only showed that Dats had a better ES ratio, it does NOT show that he was more valuable overall the other 2.
And what happened to apples to apples? You're isolating Gretzky's non-peak years in LA vs Dats absolute peak and you still barely have have a leg to stand on other than Gretzky's 89/90 year where he played injured and wasn't 100% for half the season hehe


Quote:
So are you trying to say that Sid's two way play, defensive play, whatever you want to call it has no value?
Of course it does, it's just no where near the value you are trying to give it. Not even remotely.
Where was that value last year in that wide open series vs Philly? All I know is that if a team tried to play wide open hockey against Mario or Gretzky in their primes, said team would lose and they would lose bigtime!
Not so much with Sid it seems eh

Sid's defensive value is no where that of Dats even now let alone freakin Dats' peak years and Dats' peak year barely have a leg to stand on even against the LA King Gretzky.
Please tell me how Sid makes up much ground knowing this? For the love of god please tell us!!!

Quote:
Once again this isn't only about scoring points, that's good for fantasy hockey, in the NHL everything matters for actually winning.
Scoring goals gets you wins PERIOD!!!
Preventing goals gets you shootouts!!!


Quote:
I think sid has lost too much time to injuries to make up the entire gap on Wayne but Mario isn't considered as much of a winner as Wayne is and has time missed as well.
Hahahaha seriously? You make it sound like if Sid was healthy, he had a shot at making up the gap with Gretzky in the first place. Not even remotely!
As far as Mario goes, again, that ship sailed a long time ago bud. It's gone, get over it!




Quote:
Let's adjust it for era shall we?

Both players after their 1st 7 seasons.

Sid 470-239-395-634
Mario 453-302-427-729

After Mario's first 7 seasons he played only 76,70, 67,64,60 in his 4 most healthy seasons.

In the playoffs sid has a line of 68-33-57-90 plus 19, Mario in 2 years has 34-28-35-63 plus 13.

Mario has a great 8th season with a 64-44-87-131 line (39-77-116 adjusted) and his 2nd and last SC with a great 15-16-18-34 line (we ahve yet to see Sid's line.

The fact of the matter is that Sid has made the playoffs in 7 of his first 8 seasons compared to Mario only making it in his 5th,7th and 8th seasons.

Sid has lots of time to make up that gap.
And yet, Mario has 2 Cup rings and 2 Conn Smythe's along with all that other regular season hardware that completely dwarfs Sid's. Against Gretzky himself btw.
Two words for you...Daniel and Henrik

Quote:
Yes sid does but he is arguably ahead of all 3 of those guys at the same age in time so it's not like it's impossible or even unlikely.
Arguably for who exactly?
And AGAIN, how the F is Sid ahead when he has barely managed to play 70% of his games thus far???


Quote:
Mario is over rated IMO because people tend to only look at his offensive stats and not his overall game.
********! His offense was so great that his "overall game" even with the defensive lapses was still greater than 99.99999% of the players that have ever played the game, DEFINATELY Crosby included!


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-22-2013 at 07:33 AM.
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Old
04-22-2013, 08:15 AM
  #321
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Ummm...I'm pretty sure Phil DID cover your points.
First, the Oiler's weren't the only team playing wide open hockey so that negates the league thing.
Second, the Isle's scored a whopping 385 goals (only 32 behind Edmonton btw) and all Bossy mustered during that was 64 goals to Gretzky's 92. Negating the team thing.

NYI were definitely a more depth team with huge contributions form 3rd liners, especially in the playoffs and a contrast to the fire wagon hockey that the Oilers played.




Quote:
No, that data only showed that Dats has a case for being more valuable overall in the one year.
The rest of it only showed that Dats had a better ES ratio, it does NOT show that he was more valuable overall the other 2.
And what happened to apples to apples? You're isolating Gretzky's non-peak years in LA vs Dats absolute peak and you still barely have have a leg to stand on other than Gretzky's 89/90 year where he played injured and wasn't 100% for half the season hehe
The comp is an age comp, which is the only fair way to do these things. Wayne is hands down the forward I want until around his age 28 year. the two 3 year comps between Dats and Wayne (ages 28,29,30 and 31,32,33) I'd want Dats if I was building a team plain and simple.




Quote:
Of course it does, it's just no where near the value you are trying to give it. Not even remotely.
Where was that value last year in that wide open series vs Philly? All I know is that if a team tried to play wide open hockey against Mario or Gretzky in their primes, said team would lose and they would lose bigtime!
Not so much with Sid it seems eh

MAF couldn't stop a beach ball last year

Quote:
Sid's defensive value is no where that of Dats even now let alone freakin Dats' peak years and Dats' peak year barely have a leg to stand on even against the LA King Gretzky.
Please tell me how Sid makes up much ground knowing this? For the love of god please tell us!!!

Sid is closer to Dats in the two way department than he is to Wayne, plain and simple.



Quote:
Scoring goals gets you wins PERIOD!!!
Preventing goals gets you shootouts!!!
Nice mantra to describe two different eras.




Quote:
Hahahaha seriously? You make it sound like if Sid was healthy, he had a shot at making up the gap with Gretzky in the first place. Not even remotely!
As far as Mario goes, again, that ship sailed a long time ago bud. It's gone, get over it!
It's always nice to see open minds on the subject, do you actually know how Sid's career is going to go? Heck he could even age better than Wayne, I certainly don't know.






Quote:
And yet, Mario has 2 Cup rings and 2 Conn Smythe's along with all that other regular season hardware that completely dwarfs Sid's. Against Gretzky himself btw.
Two words for you...Daniel and Henrik
Mario is stuck at 2 SC and the Sedin thing is getting really old.


Quote:
********! His offense was so great that his "overall game" even with the defensive lapses was still greater than 99.99999% of the players that have ever played the game, DEFINATELY Crosby included!
For part of Wayne and Mario's career yes, but not all of it and not without the right supporting cast either.

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04-22-2013, 09:27 AM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

The comp is an age comp, which is the only fair way to do these things. Wayne is hands down the forward I want until around his age 28 year. the two 3 year comps between Dats and Wayne (ages 28,29,30 and 31,32,33) I'd want Dats if I was building a team plain and simple.
1993 playoffs. Wayne was age 32. There is no way that Datsyuk is EVER remotely close to that level of play. A 28 year old Wayne Gretzky is better then Every other player in history, short of a healthy Mario or Orr.

Gretzky is underrated his first 6 years in LA. Because he is compared to his first 9 years on the Oiler's.

Gretzky in his 14th NHL season and at age 32 dominated the 1993 playoffs like a force of nature. Like only Mario or Gretzky himself could or has. He literally took an average team on his back to the final.... A bad back by that point.... And lost to Roy at his very, very best.

Datsyuk does not even merit a debate at his very best vs Gretzky at 28-33 years old.

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Old
04-22-2013, 09:46 AM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
first of all how about comparing both guys at the same ages instead of Wayne at 28-30 and Dats at 29-31? The PPG is alo benificial to Wayne as his total adjsuted Points over those 3 seasons is 405 which is 135 points/season to dats 293 which is 97, a spread of 42 points.
Typo. My fault. I was using data from age 28-30 for both.

Quote:
Most of the point advantage for Wayne is on the PP where he is the focal point in LA, while Detroit plays a more democratic PP.

Either way the league averages and totals for PP scoring was higher in the earlier Wayne time period but about 2% points but not sure how much of an impact we can gather there.
1991 Gretzky has 63.2% of his points at ES. 08 Datsyuk was at 57.7%. Even with adjusted points, Gretzky has almost as much production as Datsyuk if he never played a single PP and Datsyuk played what he normally did.

Gretzky was on ice for 70 of 80 PPGF. Datsyuk for 60 of 81 PPGF. That doesn't make up 42 adjPts. (Both teams had exactly 391 PPO. I think that's a level playing field and we don't need to readjust the adjusted points.)

Quote:
The ESGF and ESGA pretty much suggest that Dats has enough impact to reach your total though.
You'll have to elaborate more on this.

Quote:
I don't have the ESGF/ESGA data here, I think I recylcled it, but Wayne is among the worst in LA while Dats is one of the best in Detroit, despite facing other teams top lines.
Using Plus/Minus as a rough guide, Gretzky was +53 from 1989-91, 2nd to Dave Taylor's +54. So he should be above average GF/GA among Kings, even if he isn't playing with the best forwards regularly (Robitaille-Nicholls-Taylor).

Quote:
The first part of detroit letting in that many GA less is improbable I will give you that, but are you trying to tell me that it wasn't other factors other than Wayne that lead to the Kings being 4th in GA in 91 after being 18th in GA in 90?

Don't try to tell me that at age 30 Waqne found a defensive game, there were other factors in play for the turn around.
I don't think he's personally responsible for the good GA totals. I don't think he's personally responsible for the bad GA totals. Same with Datsyuk. ESGA is a team counting stat. Points are an individual counting stat.

Quote:
Jimmy Carson was the only position player that played with the Kings that went over to Edmonton in the trade.

going to LA was Gretzky, McSorley and Krushelnyski, it would be unexpected to see the Oilers GA decrease with those 3 guys going over and Jimmy Carson going back to Edmonton.

I know Marty Gelinas was part of the trade and I like him as a player but........
Jimmy Carson had 16 fewer ESGA in 1989. Was that 0.79 to 1.04 R-on increase a sign of personal defensive growth, or was he almost exactly the same and playing on a better team?

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:00 AM
  #324
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Guys, dial it back. Dial it back now.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:30 AM
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
If my mother would have balls she would be my father.

The bolded part is just plain ridiculous. You can't just switch other players career years, teams, health etc. and expect that conclude in to any kind of reasonable result. That was the same kind of attempt when some poster took out Ovechkin's best year thus far and tried to prove him to be equal offensive player to Kovalchuk and Heatley. Your's was just worse.

In real life, Lemieux is behind Gretzky in career, prime and peak. There is arguments to be made that for a short stretch of games Lemeiux could have been better. I don't think that, but there is a real argument. But when you expand the games to one full season it comes painfully obvious to see which of these two players comes out winning.
My thoughts exactly. Even if, per game, Lemieux was just as good (which I don't think, but whatever), I'm left comparing two guys: one who missed tons of games and even entire seasons where he couldn't help his team, vs one who didn't. Both performed at similar levels, but one did it more each season, and for more seasons. While doing so, he also set every major scoring record ever, won more Hart and Art Ross trophies, and won twice as many championships as the person being compared to him. On a per game bases, sure, they're close. As for who was better over a season, decade, or career? Gretzky in every category.

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