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Should Ducks Retire Paul Kariya Jersey?

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Old
04-18-2013, 04:31 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
How exactly is it flawed (let alone more flawed than PPG numbers)? It reflects on how the players did over a full season against their peers at the time. The fact remains that Teemu Selanne lost two Art Ross trophies to two of the top four offensive forwards of all-time (yep, I went there) - or does that kind of thing only apply to Yzerman? At the same time he finished first or second in goals multiple times. Kariya never lost a statistical trophy to a generational player.

quoipourquoi has done a fantastic job picking apart the PPG argument and why it's so flawed, so I won't bother to repeat that.
I thought we were comparing them as players on the ducks rosters. Finishes is flawed (in this case) since Kariya rarely played a full season which doesnt reflect how good he was compared to selšnne but how durable (and more prone to holdouts) he were compared to selšnne which is completely different things.

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04-18-2013, 10:28 PM
  #102
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I thought we were comparing them as players on the ducks rosters. Finishes is flawed (in this case) since Kariya rarely played a full season which doesnt reflect how good he was compared to selšnne but how durable (and more prone to holdouts) he were compared to selšnne which is completely different things.
Being able (or willing) to play is pretty important in teams perspective.

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04-19-2013, 08:01 AM
  #103
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Being able (or willing) to play is pretty important in teams perspective.
Ofcourse but it still doesnt show the difference in actual playing skill.

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04-19-2013, 08:45 AM
  #104
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Paul Kariya was by far my favorite player growing up in the 90's. My idol. A captain, how he isn't viewed as iconic in the Ducks short history is beyond me. This guy brought cachet and status to the organization upon his arrival and him and Selanne formed one of the most formidable duos of an entire decade.

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04-19-2013, 01:56 PM
  #105
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As a non-ducks fan but one that was the most hockey crazed when the dynamic duo were tearing up the NHL, it pains me to see what many Ducks fans think of Kariya today. Whether or not he was a ****** off ice should have no bearing on his on-ice accomplishments. It's a bit similar of Red Wing-fans view of Fedorov, or Pens fans of Jagr. Shame really.

Here's to the good old times:


Last edited by Cruor: 04-19-2013 at 02:07 PM.
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04-19-2013, 02:38 PM
  #106
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Here's to the good old times:
They sure were something together.

Found each other with some ridiculously nice passes in that clip.

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04-19-2013, 04:37 PM
  #107
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But at the end I dont really think Kariya was outperformed by Oates.
In the playoffs overall, he most certainly was. Kariya essentially had that one moment in the Finals, the OT goal in game 1 of the 1st round (although he did nothing else all game, and it was Jiggy who deserves all the credit for that win), and a 2 goal game against Minnesota (not that the Wild were gonna win that series anyway). Oates was pretty solid throughout the playoffs, and had some brilliant, key assists (like in back to back OT games against Dallas). He had far more impact in that playoff run than Kariya did. Kariya's contributions were more comparable to Sykora's ... just a flash here or there, and a whole lot of nothing.

In any case, when you're paid as one of the 2-3 best players in the game, you can't get shut down for 2 months just because teams are focusing on you. One quiet series, okay. 4 quiet series in a row? That's not a guy who's worth $10m a year.

On the list of Ducks contributors that playoff year, I'd rank Kariya below:
1) Giguere (obviously)
2) Rucchin (key two-way forward)
3) Leclerc (2 game winning goals, several more game winning assists)
4) Oates (faceoffs, playmaking)
5) Carney (defensive rock)
6) Ozolinsh (the Ducks' only real blueline threat)
7) Salei (played the best hockey of his career, was nearly the equal of Carney)

Hell, I might even rank Stumpy Thomas above him in terms of keys to the Ducks going as far as they did. I think you take any of the above out, and it would have had a far bigger impact than removing Kariya from that lineup. Which is sad considering he made nearly as much as most of those players' salaries combined.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
For the previous number of seasons (arguably since the Suter hit), Kariya wasn't the same player. When he was at his peak, he was everything that the guy who started this thread said he was. Kariya was a dynamic talent, amazing on-ice vision, he could score at will, he could stick handle with the best of them and skate like the wind. When Gretzky retired in '99, Kariya was always near the top of the list of players who were catching that torch.

But after the Suter hit and the big contract he signed in 1999, something changed in his game. I don't know if it was the concussions or the money or the constant losing or what, but he didn't seem to have the same fire he had before. Keep in mind, this was when Kariya should have been at his peak in terms of his age, but his production was actually going down. (Of course, Selanne was traded away at this time too and Kariya never had much of a supporting cast). There was talk that for the money, he wasn't bringing enough and that the Ducks should trade him away to help the team.
You really nailed it. From '96-'98, I think he was one of the top 3-5 players in the league. Every shift, whether he scored or not, he was creating havoc, and as a pure offensive player I don't think anyone outside of Jagr was as deadly. Somehow, from around '99 on his impact was much more sporadic ... a couple rushes or some decent plays on the PP, and not much else. And his overall effort, frankly, was often embarrassing for a guy with his salary and held in such high regard.

My opinion is, once he started taking those qualifying offers every year for 1 year at $10m, his primary motivation was to preserve his health because he had no long-term deal, along with a risky health situation. And he knew that based on his play, he wouldn't get anywhere near that much in a multi-year contract (he probably deserved closer to $6-7m per year at best when you look at players with comparable impact).

Young Kariya was fearless ... look at where he was when Suter conked him (in front of the net). And when he busted his teeth to get his 50 goal season (in front of the net). I don't think he ever went that close to the net again with any regularity, which was probably good for his health, but not for being the best player he could be. He went from elite superstar franchise player, to just another good scorer. Not bad, but not what he could have been.

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04-19-2013, 05:50 PM
  #108
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In the playoffs overall, he most certainly was. Kariya essentially had that one moment in the Finals, the OT goal in game 1 of the 1st round (although he did nothing else all game, and it was Jiggy who deserves all the credit for that win), and a 2 goal game against Minnesota (not that the Wild were gonna win that series anyway). Oates was pretty solid throughout the playoffs, and had some brilliant, key assists (like in back to back OT games against Dallas). He had far more impact in that playoff run than Kariya did. Kariya's contributions were more comparable to Sykora's ... just a flash here or there, and a whole lot of nothing.

In any case, when you're paid as one of the 2-3 best players in the game, you can't get shut down for 2 months just because teams are focusing on you. One quiet series, okay. 4 quiet series in a row? That's not a guy who's worth $10m a year.

On the list of Ducks contributors that playoff year, I'd rank Kariya below:
1) Giguere (obviously)
2) Rucchin (key two-way forward)
3) Leclerc (2 game winning goals, several more game winning assists)
4) Oates (faceoffs, playmaking)
5) Carney (defensive rock)
6) Ozolinsh (the Ducks' only real blueline threat)
7) Salei (played the best hockey of his career, was nearly the equal of Carney)

Hell, I might even rank Stumpy Thomas above him in terms of keys to the Ducks going as far as they did. I think you take any of the above out, and it would have had a far bigger impact than removing Kariya from that lineup. Which is sad considering he made nearly as much as most of those players' salaries combined.



You really nailed it. From '96-'98, I think he was one of the top 3-5 players in the league. Every shift, whether he scored or not, he was creating havoc, and as a pure offensive player I don't think anyone outside of Jagr was as deadly. Somehow, from around '99 on his impact was much more sporadic ... a couple rushes or some decent plays on the PP, and not much else. And his overall effort, frankly, was often embarrassing for a guy with his salary and held in such high regard.

My opinion is, once he started taking those qualifying offers every year for 1 year at $10m, his primary motivation was to preserve his health because he had no long-term deal, along with a risky health situation. And he knew that based on his play, he wouldn't get anywhere near that much in a multi-year contract (he probably deserved closer to $6-7m per year at best when you look at players with comparable impact).

Young Kariya was fearless ... look at where he was when Suter conked him (in front of the net). And when he busted his teeth to get his 50 goal season (in front of the net). I don't think he ever went that close to the net again with any regularity, which was probably good for his health, but not for being the best player he could be. He went from elite superstar franchise player, to just another good scorer. Not bad, but not what he could have been.

yeah no question he was a far superior player prior to the Suter Hit. And was getting paid less. IF we are judging Kariya By his Salary, then yeah he doesnt have much a leg to stand on. He made his money, I looked at what he made in the NHL, just his NHL Salary(not endorsements) Kariya made 83 Million, A lot more then Selanne(Selanne who has played more seasons, has made 69 million) If Kariya didnt lose a step with the concussions then yeah what he made would be justifiable. 83 Million, wow.

I got the salaries from this link


http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...earchdbdisplay

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04-19-2013, 06:28 PM
  #109
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yeah no question he was a far superior player prior to the Suter Hit.
There's no question in my mind that if Kariya had continued being the player he was from '96-98 for more than just 2.5 seasons, say closer to 8-10 years, he could have gone down as one of the best LWs of all time. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

By the later part of his Anaheim career (and most of his career after that) he contributed little more than floating around, and a couple times a game skating really fast with the puck up the ice and then settling for a slapshot from the perimeter. For chrissakes, they could have gotten Stephane Richer to do that, for a lot less money. And it was doubly frustrating because we all knew from watching him earlier in his career that he was capable of oh so much more. Early Kariya might have truly been worth $10m a year. Later Kariya I probably wouldn't have offered a penny more than half that amount.

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04-19-2013, 07:16 PM
  #110
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Let's get back to the main point: what is your justification for claiming that sort of gap exists for Kariya over Selanne?
Kariya showed more ability to carry the Ducks offensively and overall before the 2004 lockout. In fact, Selanne was traded because the team felt they could only afford to keep one and thought Kariya was the more valuable and better player.

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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
How exactly is it flawed (let alone more flawed than PPG numbers)? It reflects on how the players did over a full season against their peers at the time. The fact remains that Teemu Selanne lost two Art Ross trophies to two of the top four offensive forwards of all-time (yep, I went there) - or does that kind of thing only apply to Yzerman? At the same time he finished first or second in goals multiple times. Kariya never lost a statistical trophy to a generational player.
If Kariya had played all of 1997-98 at his existing pace (warning, Crosby-style argument) he would have won the Art Ross. Even over Selanne, whose numbers would have been significantly increased if you give him his pace from those same 22 games.

And if we're going to take Jagr, Gretzky, and Lemieux out of the equation in the "what if" Art Ross trophies (not sure whether you're including Howe, Orr, or "other" as #4), that means that the winners from Gretzky's first through Jagr's last would be:

2001 Sakic
2000 Bure
1999 Selanne
1998 Forsberg
1997 Selanne
1996 Sakic
1995 Lindros
1994 Fedorov
1993 LaFontaine
1992 Hull
1991 Hull
1990 Messier
1989 Yzerman
1988 Savard
1987 Messier or Gilmour
1986 Bossy
1985 Hawerchuk
1984 Goulet
1983 Stastny
1982 Bossy
1981 Dionne

Selanne wins two. However, in 1997 (ten points ahead of second-place Kariya) he actually finishes with a lesser PPG than Kariya; this is due to his scoring at a lower rate in games Kariya MISSED (14 points in 13 games) than Kariya scored at in the games he missed (5 points in 4 games). Both players had 95 points in the 65 games they played together, Selanne scoring two more goals. A more durable Kariya (maintaining his scoring pace) results in Kariya winning 1997 and 1998.

Quote:
quoipourquoi has done a fantastic job picking apart the PPG argument and why it's so flawed, so I won't bother to repeat that.
Ok, so what you're saying is that simple scoring is not a good method of player evaluation?

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04-20-2013, 12:30 PM
  #111
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Kariya was a monster in his first 4 years. A superior player to Patrick Kane I would say. Hall of Fame talent no doubt, hall of fame career? I would think so, he's about as borderline as it gets but he doesn't look out of place in the hall. He was THAT good.

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04-20-2013, 01:23 PM
  #112
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Ok to display Kariyas importance to the franchise...

If Kariya wasnt drafted by the ducks... what kind of future would that team have had? Im sure fans would have rallied behind Rucchin, Krygier, Valk and the one who would have been their biggest star, Guy Hebert. Oh, and their 1st round in 93, Chris Gratton or Rob Niedermeyer....

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04-20-2013, 02:49 PM
  #113
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No player should have their # retired. It deflects from the team game that is the base fundamental of hockey. Honour the player instead.

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04-22-2013, 02:19 AM
  #114
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About as likely as Jagr for the Pens, I'd say.

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04-22-2013, 03:08 AM
  #115
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No player should have their # retired. It deflects from the team game that is the base fundamental of hockey. Honour the player instead.
I also like the idea of honoring players more than retiring numbers. Number is a number.

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04-22-2013, 05:19 AM
  #116
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Kariya was literally the face of the franchise for quite some time.

Would be a shame if they didn't retire his and Selanne's numbers.

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04-22-2013, 01:14 PM
  #117
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Kariya was literally the face of the franchise for quite some time.
That would be Wild Wing.




RIP, good buddy.

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04-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #118
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Kariya was literally the face of the franchise for quite some time.
Yeah, but that was almost by default, because they had so little depth. In terms of being a franchise caliber player, he really was only that for about 2-3 years, which isn't really that long.

When your 3rd best player for most years is Steve Rucchin or Guy Hebert, almost any reasonably decent star level player would qualify as "the face of the franchise." And when you throw on top of that the fact that Kariya constantly balked at taking on that role, mostly treating fans like a nuisance, and then the rather unpleasant departure ... well it kind of detracts from what good he brought during his tenure there.

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04-22-2013, 02:23 PM
  #119
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About as likely as Jagr for the Pens, I'd say.
if Jagr took the first step i could see the Pens reciprocating. double J is a mercurial fellow and i think Lemieux et al are all too aware of that facet of his personality. i get the feeling that in Kariya's case, it would take a little more to repair the relationship.

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04-22-2013, 02:24 PM
  #120
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Yeah, but that was almost by default, because they had so little depth. In terms of being a franchise caliber player, he really was only that for about 2-3 years, which isn't really that long.

When your 3rd best player for most years is Steve Rucchin or Guy Hebert, almost any reasonably decent star level player would qualify as "the face of the franchise." And when you throw on top of that the fact that Kariya constantly balked at taking on that role, mostly treating fans like a nuisance, and then the rather unpleasant departure ... well it kind of detracts from what good he brought during his tenure there.
Would it be terrible to suggest to honour Rucchin and Hebert. I loved them when they were ducks and they were terribly underrated.

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04-22-2013, 02:48 PM
  #121
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Would it be terrible to suggest to honour Rucchin and Hebert. I loved them when they were ducks and they were terribly underrated.
Oh they were high quality NHL players for sure. Still, any number of non-franchise level star players could have stood out on those teams just as much as Kariya did, not because Rucchin or Hebert were bad, but because they really shouldn't have been the next-best players on a quality team.

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04-22-2013, 02:54 PM
  #122
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Oh they were high quality NHL players for sure. Still, any number of non-franchise level star players could have stood out on those teams just as much as Kariya did, not because Rucchin or Hebert were bad, but because they really shouldn't have been the next-best players on a quality team.
Rucchin was pretty good I think but maybe more of a second/third liner on a contender (decent #1 during the right conditions like on the ducks)

and Hebert, I thought he was one of the most professional athletes. Well liked and a solid goalie.


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04-22-2013, 04:04 PM
  #123
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Oh they were high quality NHL players for sure. Still, any number of non-franchise level star players could have stood out on those teams just as much as Kariya did, not because Rucchin or Hebert were bad, but because they really shouldn't have been the next-best players on a quality team.
I think it's unfair to compare Kariya to other garden variety star players. He would have been the face of any franchise besides the Pens, Philly, Detroit and Colorado. He was a huge draw.

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04-22-2013, 04:09 PM
  #124
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Hey, i made a thread about this in the Ducks Forum, and it got emotional with the Duck Fans that didnt really see him play in the 90s i found, and then the thread got closed. So i figured to try here and see what you guys think.
Uh... this is just blatantly false.

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04-22-2013, 04:20 PM
  #125
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They gave away Rucchin's #20 and Selanne's #8 a lot faster than they gave away Kariya's #9, so as jarring as it was, we probably should have seen it coming.
I don't expect Rucchin's number to be retired, and you need to remember that Selanne secured his legacy in Anaheim after he returned. Teemu Selanne was always a fan favorite, but I really don't see his jersey being retired if he doesn't return in 2005-2006 and help secure his legacy with the team.

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