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WC D1A Budapest, Hungary (Final roster announced)

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04-21-2013, 06:02 PM
  #251
Scarecrow Boat
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Wasn't it once said that a Junior National team couldn't be done in GB?

It was done before:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=4552

just doesn't look like they did it correctly... EPIHL? Bad idea

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04-21-2013, 06:08 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Wasn't it once said that a Junior National team couldn't be done in GB?

It was done before:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=4552

just doesn't look like they did it correctly... EPIHL? Bad idea
Yes it was done before, badly it didn't work

I don't see how it could possibly ever work unless they had the funding to pay the players and possibly a connection to a university.

Anyway the tournament is done now, lets take it to the Hockey in GB thread

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04-22-2013, 05:26 AM
  #253
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According to THF it's "discrimination" to not allow non-British trained dual nationals to play

rofl

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04-22-2013, 05:53 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
According to THF it's "discrimination" to not allow non-British trained dual nationals to play

rofl
Call it discrimination but there's something about it.

If a guy is good enough, and is eligible and wants to play, then that's good enough for me. Be it a guy who was born and raised in Canada and qualifies barely or a guy from Sheffield. If they can help, then it's simply being backwards to say no, let's have some British guy who may be of a lesser quality.

Wasn't the player of the tournament and top points scorer a dual nat?

We've had this discussion before but you should pick from the pool you have not create arbitrary circles of "this is the guys we want" pool. I think it's become evident that Hand will only pick dual nats only if he has to. And if he can pick lesser Brits he will.

You see dual nats in every pro sport and in every national side. Utilise the resources you have.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Hand is the right guy for the job, you need a guy who'll try and play the international game. And to addition to that, if guys want to win in international games, the Elite could benefit in bringing in Euro imports and start changing the style of game from the top.

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04-22-2013, 06:06 AM
  #255
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yeah it may be in the rules but that doesn't make it right, I personally believe it should not be in the IIHF rules.

I believe the Italians were cheating just like we did in the past, they did not produce those players, it's as simple as that.

I don't care about nationality I just want players who were produced by our junior system even if your name is Polak Polski

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04-22-2013, 06:29 AM
  #256
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It didn't bother the English National soccer team to use Owen Hargreaves.
Even though he had never lived in England or had ever played an English league game.
At least those on Italy's team play in Italy,

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04-22-2013, 06:37 AM
  #257
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It's not a quick fix at all.

You use them and you keep on using them. There are more dual nats now than there have ever been and given the genral move towards globalsiation and social movement across international boundaries, the numbers elgigible will continue to grow and grow.

We just need to get smart and start mining the talent from the international motherlode on an industrial scale instead of fiddling around with a bucket and spade in our back garden and hoping to unearth our own Gretzky.

Offer the dual nates scholarships and subsidised places on UK teams. Reward IK teams for hiring dual nats.




These people are just stupid beyond measure

I've seen some really dumb posts on there in my time but this one takes the cake


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04-22-2013, 06:38 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
It didn't bother the English National soccer team to use Owen Hargreaves.
Even though he had never lived in England or had ever played an English league game.
At least those on Italy's team play in Italy,
and he's one of the only ones they've ever used

he was also more "British" than a majority of Dual nationals we've ever used in hockey

Though Hargreaves should have played for Canada, he came through their youth setup so should have played for them, I think that's really unfair they missed out on a great player just because his parents happened to be from another country.


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04-22-2013, 08:22 AM
  #259
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......he came through their youth setup so should have played for them.....
Interesting. Do you feel the same about the 1936 British ice hockey team? Yes many of them were born in the UK but (I believe) only two trained under the UK junior system, as was back then.

Most of you Brits who are taking the 'purist' line seem to also agree that funding is a major issue. Given that funding for UK sports is invariably linked to results and no amount of "snot fair, gonna scream and scream until I make myself sick" is likely to change this then how do you propose the vicious circle is broken.

When a team like Canada is not afraid to use dual-nationals then it is a little absurd when a hockey backwater nation thinks taking some sort of moral stand against the IIHF eligibility rules will ever produce consistent results. Unless of course y'all know of a forthcoming change to world rankings that award teams for being good eggs and not stooping to 'cheating'?

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04-22-2013, 08:31 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
Interesting. Do you feel the same about the 1936 British ice hockey team? Yes many of them were born in the UK but (I believe) only two trained under the UK junior system, as was back then.

Most of you Brits who are taking the 'purist' line seem to also agree that funding is a major issue. Given that funding for UK sports is invariably linked to results and no amount of "snot fair, gonna scream and scream until I make myself sick" is likely to change this then how do you propose the vicious circle is broken.

When a team like Canada is not afraid to use dual-nationals then it is a little absurd when a hockey backwater nation thinks taking some sort of moral stand against the IIHF eligibility rules will ever produce consistent results. Unless of course y'all know of a forthcoming change to world rankings that award teams for being good eggs and not stooping to 'cheating'?
Exactly.

Funding from the various places give it out generally based on results.

I don't care, and I don't think it matters where they come from, if they can help GB get where it needs to be at the WCs then that's all it needs to be.

It's not going to change the long term, but it's the things it brings with it. A good GB team can help bring in some moolah for the game.

The simple mantra for Hand should have been "pick the best available". He didn't.

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04-22-2013, 08:38 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
Interesting. Do you feel the same about the 1936 British ice hockey team? Yes many of them were born in the UK but (I believe) only two trained under the UK junior system, as was back then.

Most of you Brits who are taking the 'purist' line seem to also agree that funding is a major issue. Given that funding for UK sports is invariably linked to results and no amount of "snot fair, gonna scream and scream until I make myself sick" is likely to change this then how do you propose the vicious circle is broken.

When a team like Canada is not afraid to use dual-nationals then it is a little absurd when a hockey backwater nation thinks taking some sort of moral stand against the IIHF eligibility rules will ever produce consistent results. Unless of course y'all know of a forthcoming change to world rankings that award teams for being good eggs and not stooping to 'cheating'?
Yes.

A proper development system put in place will improve the position of the national team in the long term, things are run terribly as of now, funding is nice but it doesn't do much good when the people in charge haven't got a clue and don't seem to care.

Canada don't use dual nationals, they don't need to.

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04-22-2013, 08:41 AM
  #262
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Which current dual nationals could've added something to the team and would've been a better choice over others that played?

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04-22-2013, 08:44 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
The simple mantra for Hand should have been "pick the best available". He didn't.
True he probably didn't pick the best Brits but all of the eligible dual nationals were rightly left out of the team. Sarich was brutal in Latvia, Nielson was injured and Hutchins is past it and had a poor season.

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04-22-2013, 08:57 AM
  #264
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Eligible dual nationals AFAIK:

Corey Neilson
Rod Sarich
Jeff Hutchins
Todd Dutiaume
Greg Chambers
Doug Sheppard
Curtis Huppe
Nathan Rempel
Andrew Sharp
Derek Campbell
Adam Calder (career possibly over)
Jeff Glowa
Pavel Gomeniuk

None of them set the world alight do they, lets be reality. Most of them play in the EPL.

Edit: How could I forget Andre Payette!


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04-22-2013, 08:59 AM
  #265
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What's the point of a national team if the players aren't going to be from that Nation?

Why not call them the EIHL All-Stars and let them wear their club jerseys?

Suggesting dual nationals should play on the Senior Men's team is the most counter productive solution possible. They did it before and it pissed off the best Brits while they were competing at the exact same level that they're competing at right now...

Funny thing is, if the team was loaded with dual nationals and got promoted to the top group, I bet the same people complaining would be saying "Who cares? None of them are British"

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04-22-2013, 09:03 AM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Yes.

A proper development system put in place will improve the position of the national team in the long term, things are run terribly as of now, funding is nice but it doesn't do much good when the people in charge haven't got a clue and don't seem to care.

Canada don't use dual nationals, they don't need to.
PK Subban Owen Nolan...humour....
Many US/Canada but you can't have the worlds largest land border and worlds largest trade relationship with out human cross over.
I'm not saying scour the earth. But those that played for Italy, Korea, Japan at least play their club hockey in those countries.

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04-22-2013, 09:08 AM
  #267
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Dual nationals really wouldn't improve the team at all. It did back in the Super League days because the imports playing here were better than they are now. Also a lot of the EIHL imports don't seem to stick around for very long nowadays, a lot who do don't bother getting citizenship either, you would probably have to nag them to do it to get them to play. Just look at the guys I listed, most of them are past it and/or are only slightly marginally better than the guys who did make the team, so there really is no point.

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04-22-2013, 09:12 AM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
PK Subban Owen Nolan...humour....
Many US/Canada but you can't have the worlds largest land border and worlds largest trade relationship with out human cross over.
I'm not saying scour the earth. But those that played for Italy, Korea, Japan at least play their club hockey in those countries.
PK Subban? His parents moved to Canada in the 1970s he was born and raised in Canada with only the 1 citizenship.

Better example would have been Sean Day (just got exceptional status for the OHL, drafted by Mississauga Steelheads)
-Born in Belgium
-Grew up in USA
-Played all his hockey in USA (summer camps in Toronto)
-Canadian parents & all immediate family
-Never had American citizenship & will play for Canada

that's a bit greasy but the states have stolen many Canadians as well and without these players they're no worse off

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04-22-2013, 09:15 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Dual nationals really wouldn't improve the team at all. It did back in the Super League days because the imports playing here were better than they are now. Also a lot of the EIHL imports don't seem to stick around for very long nowadays, a lot who do don't bother getting citizenship either, you would probably have to nag them to do it to get them to play. Just look at the guys I listed, most of them are past it and/or are only slightly marginally better than the guys who did make the team, so there really is no point.
Well most don't get dual nationalities because they know the national team isn't doing the dual national thing anymore.

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04-22-2013, 09:17 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
PK Subban? His parents moved to Canada in the 1970s he was born and raised in Canada with only the 1 citizenship.

Better example would have been Sean Day (just got exceptional status for the OHL, drafted by Mississauga Steelheads)
-Born in Belgium
-Grew up in USA
-Played all his hockey in USA (summer camps in Toronto)
-Canadian parents & all immediate family
-Never had American citizenship & will play for Canada

that's a bit greasy but the states have stolen many Canadians as well and without these players they're no worse off
If Jamaica had a team...........plus Ho Sang............just yanking the chain
Carry on with-out me

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04-22-2013, 09:27 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Well most don't get dual nationalities because they know the national team isn't doing the dual national thing anymore.
Ok here's a list of guys who have lived here long enough to get citizenship (5 years)

Jeff Legue
Jason Silverthorn
Jade Galbraith
Sylvain Cloutier
Danny Stewart

Ooh, a grand total of 5 players from the EIHLs top 100 point scorers including one who is 39 years old

Legue, Silverthorn and Galbraith are good players but in my opinion would not make a big enough difference to get us to the top division

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04-22-2013, 09:47 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Ok here's a list of guys who have lived here long enough to get citizenship (5 years)

Jeff Legue
Jason Silverthorn
Jade Galbraith
Sylvain Cloutier
Danny Stewart

Ooh, a grand total of 5 players from the EIHLs top 100 point scorers including one who is 39 years old

Legue, Silverthorn and Galbraith are good players but in my opinion would not make a big enough difference to get us to the top division
That's not the point though lol

If you can't represent the country then you're less likely to care if you get citizenship or not & you're less likely to stick around long term.

I don't want dual nationals on the team but if you told, for example, Nick Riopel that he could be the goalie of the future for the GB national team he'd be more inclined to stick around. (That's just an example, don't take it literally)

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04-22-2013, 09:51 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
That's not the point though lol

If you can't represent the country then you're less likely to care if you get citizenship or not & you're less likely to stick around long term.

I don't want dual nationals on the team but if you told, for example, Nick Riopel that he could be the goalie of the future for the GB national team he'd be more inclined to stick around. (That's just an example, don't take it literally)
Maybe, but the teams also seem to be taking a different approach and often want to sign different imports every year.

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04-22-2013, 09:51 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Canada don't use dual nationals, they don't need to.
I'm feeling generous so I'll allow you to double check that and correct yourself before I respond further.

Needless to say, I wouldn't have made that statement if it were not based on fact.

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04-22-2013, 09:56 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
I'm feeling generous so I'll allow you to double check that and correct yourself before I respond further.

Needless to say, I wouldn't have made that statement if it were not based on fact.
Do you even know what we are actually talking about when we say dual national?

We are talking about guys who learned all their hockey in one country then went somewhere else to play pro and got citiezenship there.

We are not talking about people like Dany Heatley.

I've gone through every team Canada WC roster all the way back to 2001 and I haven't found a single player who wasn't Canadian trained.

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