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Interview Dave Feschuk talks about his last article in the Star. Burke wants credit

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Old
04-21-2013, 09:02 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Burke inherited teenage players drafted 5th overall and 13th overall.
He then had 4 straight bottom 10 finishes in a row (7th overall, 2nd overall, 9th overall, 5th overall)
And that doesn't even include other players such as Grabo, Kulemin, and Reimer.

Do you really think it would be hard to get some good players trading/drafting with those picks?

Once again... 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) would be the bare minimum of expectations for making the playoffs.
You seem to think that 5 seasons minus 2 months was spectacular.
So, under that line of reasoning, would you be saying that Burke did a "pretty good job" if it took him 9 years to make the playoffs?
Would you be saying the same things as you are now? "Given the poor players he inherited, Burke still did a pretty good job."

And none of this even takes into account Burkes dramatic financial advantages over the majority of other teams that struggled to make the playoffs the past few seasons.
At what point are your expectations just too low for the highest paid gm in the league.
Remember the good ol days he wasn't doing it right, like Edmonton and their rapid ascent With the right draft picks?

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04-21-2013, 09:07 PM
  #327
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Is the title of this thread Burke wants all credit?

Because you'd have to be pretty ridiculous to argue he deserves none

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04-21-2013, 09:46 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Burke inherited teenage players drafted 5th overall and 13th overall.
He then had 4 straight bottom 10 finishes in a row (7th overall, 2nd overall, 9th overall, 5th overall)
And that doesn't even include other players such as Grabo, Kulemin, and Reimer.

Do you really think it would be hard to get some good players trading/drafting with those picks?

Once again... 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) would be the bare minimum of expectations for making the playoffs.
You seem to think that 5 seasons minus 2 months was spectacular.
So, under that line of reasoning, would you be saying that Burke did a "pretty good job" if it took him 9 years to make the playoffs?
Would you be saying the same things as you are now? "Given the poor players he inherited, Burke still did a pretty good job."

And none of this even takes into account Burkes dramatic financial advantages over the majority of other teams that struggled to make the playoffs the past few seasons.
At what point are your expectations just too low for the highest paid gm in the league.
Whether too low or unattainably high, my expectations are governed by an ability to consider circumstances in their entirety, rather than some revised, irrational sense of believing that salary equates to a GMs ability to control the performance of his players and the players of other teams.

The only financial advantage Toronto has, namely in it's potential to construct a superior administrative structure, was administered. Toronto's other financial advantage is measured in it's ability to subsidize it's competition. Whatever the application, there is no reasonable criticism you can invent that merits the label of irresponsible spending, if you're even remotely concerned with actual circumstances.

Within those circumstances would be the rejection of players Burke targeted (Sedins, Kesler, etc...) for other clubs. That had nothing to do with almost four years of Burke's service or perceived braggadocio, seasons after their availablilty in his first year here, and everything to do with the nature of the business that doesn't serve as Toronto's singular one-stop shop.

"You seem to think that 5 seasons minus 2 months was spectacular."

I might seem to think that in your mind, but if you're concerned how and what I think, you'd have directly responded to the numerous inconsistencies I've pointed out previously in your posts rather than participate in the conversation you wish I was engaged in.

I think, that with a season to consider what moves could and should be made excluded, that the yield Burke's actions ultimately produced are exemplary. If you think his participation is based on two factors: The Kessel trade and four seasons of missed playoffs, while excluding...JVR for Schenn, Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin, drafting Kadri, Phaneuf for Stajan, Hagman and White (Sweet Fancy Moses), Franson for Lebda, bringing in Carlyle and Nonis, then you are doing so in spite of reality.

"So, under that line of reasoning, would you be saying that Burke did a "pretty good job" if it took him 9 years to make the playoffs?"

Why not 29 years for increased dramatic effect? Either instance is a distortion of how I think and what I've presented. The FACT of the matter is, you cannot point to a single facet of this team's success, without citing an origin point of Brian Burke. Not one. And you cannot wish away, that in -- as is oft repeated to you -- three years and ten months, with two Burke principals steering Burke acquired assets that are amongst the best in the league, Toronto is assured of playoff hockey. Something consistently present in Burke's resume prior to coming to this once decimated club.

He rebuilt it ground up, top to bottom, and not for the short run, which is what I've asserted over and over and over again. Why? Because Burke repeated, he was not interested in short term moves that compromised the long-term integrity of the club. THAT sort of franchise building effort, I thought, was indicative of a GM who really regarded this club as hockey's most storied. As such, he was attempting to create a contending club...not for one season, but a foundation for all seasons. And it's looking, given the age of our top players, that he did exactly that.

"Would you be saying the same things as you are now? "Given the poor players he inherited, Burke still did a pretty good job."

I don't have to speculate in order to render a sound conclusion precisely because of those factors that completely undermine your hyperfocused, irrational assessment.

Are the Leafs coached by a Burke hire who previously won a Cup on a Burke club?

Are the Leafs managed by a Burke hire who has been characterized as "Burke's protoge"?

In the last two seasons, are the three players who have been at time or another, in the top ten in scoring, Burke acquisitions?

In this last season, are the two defencemen who have been in the top five in NHL scoring, Burke acquisitions?

Is it unreasonable to characterize four seasons, one less than stated as necessary to rebuild an entire franchise as a perrenial contender, an unreasonable amount of time to do so?

Can you name one other club that presently has two top scoring defencemen, and three forwards who in the last two season have placed in the top ten as young as Toronto heading into the playoffs?

And one could go on and on...You seem particularly silent on Wilson's absence, what he did or didn't contribute to the club, and Burke's contributions.

I regard the club's present situtation as being an amalgamation of a number of efforts finally pressing through the proverbial wall...But who knows, maybe we clinched because we only had to play half a season, and got lucky that it was the right half played.

Too bad, Burke wasn't as lucky this time around.


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Old
04-21-2013, 10:17 PM
  #329
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Amnesty buyouts? We will buyout Komi this summer and if we can't trade Grabo. W'll see one more year of Grabovski and Nonis will decide if his a keeper, traded or bought out. Problem somewhere? Burkes cap manament was way better than average in this league. One bad RFA contract that is Grabovski. Back in the day we needed another centerman and Connolly was best stop gap in that UFA period. Few months and his gone, Richards would have been better acquisition?

With Grabovski we have to consider if his play in KHL during lockout is part of the problem. In one fantasy league I took lot of players that played in europe and some of them had big problems adjusting back to NA game. I think Malkin suffered too a bit. It's different game in KHL. Then Kadri took Grabos place and things got complicated. Mikhail is still a warrior and I we might be able to trade him. There isn't that many Cs available in free agency
Great, so you cost the team money.

And, as it stands we still have wasted money and assets in the minors. Considering we will be in tough in the playoffs, it would have been nice to have additional assets on the team instead of with the Marlies.

I'm not even saying he was horrible, but he did support a coach that benched a number of the guys who are leaders on the team today. We likely could have been in the playoffs before this if Burke would have been smart enough to get rid of Wilson. But he wasn't, until it was too late.

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04-22-2013, 07:29 AM
  #330
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Great, so you cost the team money.

And, as it stands we still have wasted money and assets in the minors. Considering we will be in tough in the playoffs, it would have been nice to have additional assets on the team instead of with the Marlies.
Doesn't look like money or cap issues prevented Nonis from making any moves, we have a fair bit of cap space left.

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04-22-2013, 07:40 AM
  #331
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I contend that it doesn't matter if he was instrumental towards this season's success. That doesn't matter. He had to go.

Why are the Leafs spending more than $12 million on non-roster assets? Lombardi, Connolly, Armstrong, and Komisarek have all been either bought out, traded away with salary retained, or buried in the AHL. These are all Burke acquisitions. If you want to give him credit for his successes, you also have to give him credit for his spectacular failures as well.

Why did Burke send Orr to the minors and lament the death of the enforcer and the rising prominence of the rat? He conducted a press conference specifically to make that announcement. But today, three Leafs enforcers are playing a vital role in ensuring our team is tough and that no one messes with our youngsters and skilled players: McLaren, Orr, and Fraser.

Burke's fatal move was sticking with Wilson for far too long. The enforcer was never dead. Wilson just didn't want to play him. In comes Carlyle, and all of a sudden enforcers are playing a crucial role on a Toronto hockey team. If there was ever a single reason for Burke's legitimate dismissal, it was his insistence to cling to his old buddy Ron Wilson. Wilson routinely iced a soft-as-butter, defensively weak, lackadaisical, run-and-gun, and PK-poor team. On one hand Burke preaches truculence, and on the other he secures a contract extension for a buddy of his that completely disagrees with that philosophy.
What killed me was when he admitted to the media upon Wilson's dismissal that they didn't really see eye-to-eye on how a team should play. Then why was he here so long despite piss-poor results, and why in the bloody blue hell would you extend him in the middle of a season when we were still one of the softest, poorest defensive teams in the NHL?

That being said, he did an 'OK' job here and laid the foundation for something better. Imagine where we'd be without the Phaneuf trade alone, let alone acquiring Franson for Lebda, Lupul/Gardiner, etc. etc.


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Old
04-22-2013, 08:24 AM
  #332
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Congratulations to Dave Nonis, Randy Carlyle, Dion Phaneuf and the rest of the Leafs on reaching the playoffs!

-Burke
Burkie2020 Twitter

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04-22-2013, 08:40 AM
  #333
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Congratulations to Dave Nonis, Randy Carlyle, Dion Phaneuf and the rest of the Leafs on reaching the playoffs!

-Burke
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Burke, always classy.

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04-22-2013, 08:53 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Congratulations to Dave Nonis, Randy Carlyle, Dion Phaneuf and the rest of the Leafs on reaching the playoffs!

-Burke
Burkie2020 Twitter
Despite his bravado and stubborness, I feel like Burke has shown on numerous occasions that he is a well-intent guy (even if his comments and/or decisions aren't always well received) so I'm not surprised by this classy move but nevertheless, I'm happy he did it.

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04-22-2013, 10:24 AM
  #335
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Whether too low or unattainably high, my expectations are governed by an ability to consider circumstances in their entirety, rather than some revised, irrational sense of believing that salary equates to a GMs ability to control the performance of his players and the players of other teams.

The only financial advantage Toronto has, namely in it's potential to construct a superior administrative structure, was administered. Toronto's other financial advantage is measured in it's ability to subsidize it's competition. Whatever the application, there is no reasonable criticism you can invent that merits the label of irresponsible spending, if you're even remotely concerned with actual circumstances.

Within those circumstances would be the rejection of players Burke targeted (Sedins, Kesler, etc...) for other clubs. That had nothing to do with almost four years of Burke's service or perceived braggadocio, seasons after their availablilty in his first year here, and everything to do with the nature of the business that doesn't serve as Toronto's singular one-stop shop.

"You seem to think that 5 seasons minus 2 months was spectacular."

I might seem to think that in your mind, but if you're concerned how and what I think, you'd have directly responded to the numerous inconsistencies I've pointed out previously in your posts rather than participate in the conversation you wish I was engaged in.

I think, that with a season to consider what moves could and should be made excluded, that the yield Burke's actions ultimately produced are exemplary. If you think his participation is based on two factors: The Kessel trade and four seasons of missed playoffs, while excluding...JVR for Schenn, Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin, drafting Kadri, Phaneuf for Stajan, Hagman and White (Sweet Fancy Moses), Franson for Lebda, bringing in Carlyle and Nonis, then you are doing so in spite of reality.

"So, under that line of reasoning, would you be saying that Burke did a "pretty good job" if it took him 9 years to make the playoffs?"

Why not 29 years for increased dramatic effect? Either instance is a distortion of how I think and what I've presented. The FACT of the matter is, you cannot point to a single facet of this team's success, without citing an origin point of Brian Burke. Not one. And you cannot wish away, that in -- as is oft repeated to you -- three years and ten months, with two Burke principals steering Burke acquired assets that are amongst the best in the league, Toronto is assured of playoff hockey. Something consistently present in Burke's resume prior to coming to this once decimated club.

He rebuilt it ground up, top to bottom, and not for the short run, which is what I've asserted over and over and over again. Why? Because Burke repeated, he was not interested in short term moves that compromised the long-term integrity of the club. THAT sort of franchise building effort, I thought, was indicative of a GM who really regarded this club as hockey's most storied. As such, he was attempting to create a contending club...not for one season, but a foundation for all seasons. And it's looking, given the age of our top players, that he did exactly that.

"Would you be saying the same things as you are now? "Given the poor players he inherited, Burke still did a pretty good job."

I don't have to speculate in order to render a sound conclusion precisely because of those factors that completely undermine your hyperfocused, irrational assessment.

Are the Leafs coached by a Burke hire who previously won a Cup on a Burke club?

Are the Leafs managed by a Burke hire who has been characterized as "Burke's protoge"?

In the last two seasons, are the three players who have been at time or another, in the top ten in scoring, Burke acquisitions?

In this last season, are the two defencemen who have been in the top five in NHL scoring, Burke acquisitions?

Is it unreasonable to characterize four seasons, one less than stated as necessary to rebuild an entire franchise as a perrenial contender, an unreasonable amount of time to do so?

Can you name one other club that presently has two top scoring defencemen, and three forwards who in the last two season have placed in the top ten as young as Toronto heading into the playoffs?

And one could go on and on...You seem particularly silent on Wilson's absence, what he did or didn't contribute to the club, and Burke's contributions.

I regard the club's present situtation as being an amalgamation of a number of efforts finally pressing through the proverbial wall...But who knows, maybe we clinched because we only had to play half a season, and got lucky that it was the right half played.

Too bad, Burke wasn't as lucky this time around.
There's some real gold in here.


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04-22-2013, 10:26 AM
  #336
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and the coach he supported for years wanted some of those guys in the press box and burke was cool with that. awesome gm
Such as?

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04-22-2013, 10:28 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
If it was another GM would the results have been any different after a decade of being out of the playoffs.

What Burke accomplished was not unique.

Not every child is special, mostly they are normal, regular, average kids. To their parents they are special, but in the overall scheme of things average is average.
Brian Burke was not in charge for 10 years. In fact he wasn't even allowed to make moves for 4 full years. That you would attempt to display it as such says a whole lot about the strength of your argument.

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04-22-2013, 10:30 AM
  #338
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With the same talent level acauired? Having surfaced from the kind of talent absent environment that he was handed?

Can't agree here, ULF.
Indeed. It would be interesting to see a list of GMs to produce that many players producing near the top of their positions (scoring) in less than 4 years.

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04-22-2013, 10:32 AM
  #339
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As I mentioned earlier in the thread 6 of the 7 bottom finishing teams from last year (Montreal, Toronto, NYI, Minny, Anaheim & Columbus) are all currently in a playoff position.

6 of 7 is 85.7%, which is certainly not unique of turnaround and improvement. Leafs among that success.

Edmonton the only team of the 7 on the outside, now that is unique to the playoff verses non playoff scenario. Perhaps had they fired their GM early like Toronto, Montreal, or Columbus have they too would have experienced more success sooner. But I'm sure fired GM Tambellini will get the credit once the Oilers make the playoffs again, if this thread is any indication of how these things work.
How many of them completely rebuilt their organization?

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04-22-2013, 10:33 AM
  #340
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to the whole, i'd agree...the sum of the parts however, indicate we might have a team that's designed for more than simply getting into the playoffs, which is if i recall, the point burke repeated ad nauseum as his comprehensive goal.
ding ding ding!!!

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04-22-2013, 10:35 AM
  #341
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Burke can take solace in recognizing the team is playing its best hockey now, when he is no longer around making any of the decisions..

Living vicariously through the success of others that he was unable to obtain, while left soul searching among his numerous failures for reasons that led to his dismissal.
I bet it burns people to see 3 of the teams he was the architect of in the top 8 in the league.

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04-22-2013, 10:37 AM
  #342
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It could be that the core players are older, and better. Sometimes that is the case. Or so I hear
That and the coach he hired.

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04-22-2013, 11:03 AM
  #343
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Congratulations to Dave Nonis, Randy Carlyle, Dion Phaneuf and the rest of the Leafs on reaching the playoffs!

-Burke
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Thank you Burke

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04-22-2013, 01:01 PM
  #344
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Great, so you cost the team money.

And, as it stands we still have wasted money and assets in the minors. Considering we will be in tough in the playoffs, it would have been nice to have additional assets on the team instead of with the Marlies.

I'm not even saying he was horrible, but he did support a coach that benched a number of the guys who are leaders on the team today. We likely could have been in the playoffs before this if Burke would have been smart enough to get rid of Wilson. But he wasn't, until it was too late.
If you have to sum up Burkes biggest failures in two words. Those would be: Ron Wilson. I don't know what Burke thought when he kept Ron Wilson. I have to guess that he thought he had best option as a coach. Timing wasn't right, when we slumped before since there was no Carlyle on market and Eakins was learning his ropes. When Anaheim got rid of Carlyle, Burke acted. Interim head coach would have been better than Ron Wilson, but maybe Burke thought that he was best choice. It was his biggest mistake.

To that other topic. Wasting money? Maple Leafs wasting money? What is this. When we have cap room we can make moves, money is no issue. If you say that we didn't need Tim Connolly or Lombardi it is another case. Though we needed Connolly and there wasn't better options. That two year term was perfect, it gave one more year for Kadri to develop his skills in the minors. TC got out played and is playing for Marlies. No issue. We needed Komisarek and his contract is burden to our organisation, but we get rid of him with amnesty buyout. I see no issue there. Wasting money. Nonsense. Additional assets on the team? Who? We have players like Frattin, Hamilton and MacArthur going in and out. There is no gain to us if we keep more NHLers in the press box. We have enough dman and players like Holzer in the minors or Tim Connolly for playoff run.

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04-22-2013, 01:40 PM
  #345
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Burkes biggest regret is giving RW that extension. other than that he was a marvelous GM from what he accomplished..... i havn't heard any of those people complaining about how edmonton did it against how toronto did things.

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04-22-2013, 01:53 PM
  #346
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Feschuk is such a hater. He was on the radio this morning criticizing Burke for haunting this Leafs' team with bad contracts like Komi and Grabo's. He should take a look at the Leafs' cap situation after this season and see the great shape he has left for Nonis financially. Team makes the playoffs in 9 years with a roster that Burke built and that's all he could say.

Hey Feschuk, why don't you praise Burke for backing up Reimer, drafting Kadri, trading for Lupul, Gardiner, JVR, Kessel, Phaneuf, Franson and Fraser, signing McClement, re-signing Kulemin and Bozak for cheap, and hiring Nonis and Carlyle, etc.?


Last edited by Superstar: 04-22-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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04-22-2013, 01:57 PM
  #347
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Burkes biggest regret is giving RW that extension. other than that he was a marvelous GM from what he accomplished..... i havn't heard any of those people complaining about how edmonton did it against how toronto did things.
Right on. And had he not made big predictions and promises, but set better expectations for the fans and media, he wouldn't be crucified the way he was -- however, that's just him, comes as part of the package.

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04-22-2013, 02:01 PM
  #348
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The Leafs fans at the ACC should get some credit too. Wilson would've probably stuck around for another year had they not run him out of town.

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04-22-2013, 03:42 PM
  #349
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Thank you Mr. Burke. You helped lift the spirit of an entire city.


Last edited by Leafidelity: 04-22-2013 at 03:56 PM.
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04-22-2013, 03:54 PM
  #350
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Congratulations to Dave Nonis, Randy Carlyle, Dion Phaneuf and the rest of the Leafs on reaching the playoffs!

-Burke
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You noticed he mentioned his guys first and just lumps in the rest? What an ego on this guy. Lets hope this is the last we hear of him. You notice other franchises who fire someone don't have their fanbases pining away for them months after the fact?

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