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2013 NHL Entry Draft Thread | "Don't Be A Moran, Draft Monahan"

View Poll Results: Who Would You Draft Of These Options?
Sean Monahan 141 52.61%
Elias Lindholm 26 9.70%
Valeri Nischushkin 34 12.69%
Darnell Nurse 45 16.79%
Rasmus Ristolainen 8 2.99%
Curtis Lazar 14 5.22%
Voters: 268. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-22-2013, 11:25 AM
  #551
dyzfunctioned
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Well, as of right now we're sitting with the 6th pick. Carolina is 2 points back with an extra game played but they have more ROW than us. So if Carolina wins 1 more game than us in their next three, we'll be in the top 5.

I know there's a lot of love for Monahan around here, and I'm a huge fan, but if we're in the top 5 there's literally no way we should be picking him. Even in the top 6 it's kind of eh. At #7 he's a no-brainer but anywhere before that is questionable IMO.

#1 Jones
#2-4 Mackinnon, Barkov, Drouin

Would love to get into that top 4 but that would require TBL to go on a hot streak and EDM to go winless pretty much.

I think a lot of people will discount Nichuskin due to Russian factor and him being a wing but I'd think long and hard about taking him over Monahan. Talent-wise, it's not even close.

That being said, potential draft slots we're looking at the 4-10 range for our draft pick. IMO the Oil Draft board should look like..

1) Jones
2) MacKinnon
3) Barkov
4) Drouin
5) Lindholm
6) Nichuskin
7) Monahan
8) Nurse
9) Zadorov
10) Ristolainen/Lazar/Horvat/Shinkaruk

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04-22-2013, 11:39 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
This comment makes no sense. Based on what? Development isn't linear. There is no way to know how Barkov would develop over the next year. You are projecting that he would keep developing and at best that is a guess.

And if people are going to cite Gladwells Outliers book here, his research was looking at mostly the Canadian Hockey system. It doesn't necessarily apply to other countries. You would have to research the rules and system in those countries to find out if his theories would apply.
95% of the time it is. If Hall, RNH, Yak, Ebs all were drafted a year after... they all would have improved and dominated the Juniors. The stats may not have been better if they focused on overall game but a year would certainly made them a better player.

Unless a guy is a bust (Esposito) there is always an improvement when you are a year older and other teams have a lot more 16 yo for you to dominate

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04-22-2013, 12:18 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by dyzfunctioned View Post
Well, as of right now we're sitting with the 6th pick. Carolina is 2 points back with an extra game played but they have more ROW than us. So if Carolina wins 1 more game than us in their next three, we'll be in the top 5.

I know there's a lot of love for Monahan around here, and I'm a huge fan, but if we're in the top 5 there's literally no way we should be picking him. Even in the top 6 it's kind of eh. At #7 he's a no-brainer but anywhere before that is questionable IMO.

#1 Jones
#2-4 Mackinnon, Barkov, Drouin

Would love to get into that top 4 but that would require TBL to go on a hot streak and EDM to go winless pretty much.

I think a lot of people will discount Nichuskin due to Russian factor and him being a wing but I'd think long and hard about taking him over Monahan. Talent-wise, it's not even close.

That being said, potential draft slots we're looking at the 4-10 range for our draft pick. IMO the Oil Draft board should look like..

1) Jones
2) MacKinnon
3) Barkov
4) Drouin
5) Lindholm
6) Nichuskin
7) Monahan
8) Nurse
9) Zadorov
10) Ristolainen/Lazar/Horvat/Shinkaruk
Why not Monahan? The guy is as big as Barkov and has no skating issues. He scores clutch goals and is supposedly great on the dot.
We have to consider the fact that we already have RNH on the club and need a C to compliment him..
MacKinnon is BPA but would be redundant
Drouin\Nichushkin are better players but not needed with our setup. (Wing)
Lindholm will be too much like Nuge. (sme size as Yakupov)

For Oilers ... Jones\Monahan\Barkov\Nurse should be the top 4 targets.
Zadorov\Lazar would be nice if we were picking 10-15 overall spots

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04-22-2013, 12:24 PM
  #554
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My thoughts are the same Petro, except I would probably take Mackinnon over Barkov.

I have to admit it's silly but I do look at the shoulder injury for Barkov.

But it's a toss-up between those 2 for me.

Jones
MacK/Barkov
Monahan

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04-22-2013, 12:37 PM
  #555
dyzfunctioned
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Originally Posted by Petro Points View Post
Why not Monahan? The guy is as big as Barkov and has no skating issues. He scores clutch goals and is supposedly great on the dot.
We have to consider the fact that we already have RNH on the club and need a C to compliment him..
MacKinnon is BPA but would be redundant
Drouin\Nichushkin are better players but not needed with our setup. (Wing)
Lindholm will be too much like Nuge. (sme size as Yakupov)

For Oilers ... Jones\Monahan\Barkov\Nurse should be the top 4 targets.
Zadorov\Lazar would be nice if we were picking 10-15 overall spots
In what way are they redundant? In the same way Malkin/Crosby are redundant? Or the same way Backstrom/Ribeiro are redundant? You get the point... Not really sure how having two talented centers is redundant, especially when all of the top C's this draft (MacKinnon, Monahan, Barkov, Lindholm) are all above average in the dot, in terms of physicality, and in terms of defensive play. If we took Monahan over Barkov or Lindholm I'd be extremely upset. The fact that a guy is a few inches taller than another is completely irrelevant to how effectively they play hockey.

I'd say Lindholm is more physical than Monahan and is just plain hard to get the puck off of. Size really doesn't matter - it's how the player uses their body and their particular skill set. We're not talking about midgets here - Lindholm is 6'0 and weighs more than Monahan. I'm not sure where this idea comes from that teams need size to win. Lindholm is a better player in every aspect, except height and maybe faceoff ability. Furthermore, the game he plays is nowhere near the same as the Nuge, unless you're talking about his on-ice vision and superb passing skills... which is something you should want in any top 6 center.

And if size is the most important thing, shouldn't your primary targets be Barkov and Nichuskin?


Last edited by dyzfunctioned: 04-22-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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04-22-2013, 12:45 PM
  #556
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For the current Oilers, yes size does matter. They have such a shortage of it up front that they have to address it. Monahan plays a power forward's game, in that he protects the puck well and can cycle. Again, this matters, especially for the Oilers.


To be honest if we compare who is a better fit on this team between Monahan/Lindholm based on projecting them as J Staal/Backstrom, i'd argue Monahan/Staal type is what we need. Size, selke-caliber 2-way play, who is good on the dot and plays all situations.


Plus, I have never heard anyone compared pre-draft to Toews, until Monahan. That is extremely high praise, and something every team covets.

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04-22-2013, 12:48 PM
  #557
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I gotta say... any of the top 8 picks would be solid picks... anyone here that says any of them would be redundant on the Oilers... really?

A near basement team for 4 years running doesn't have "too much" depth imo.

Drouin and Nichushkin seem to be the two players most would avoid because they are wingers... yet they may be two of the most talented and highest ceiling players in this draft.

I agree... C and D are priorities but elite talent is elite talent... if they are there and are BPA when they pick... you have to consider them.

Everyone wants a power forward for the top 6... that's Nichushkin to a T. Size, speed, skill... all 3 of the magic S's in one player. What's not to like?

Drouin is arguably the most skilled and innately talented player in this entire draft. I've read comparisons to Giroux/Kane. I don't know about others here but I wouldn't mind Giroux or Kane on the Oilers. His only knock is his size. Is he really that small though?

I've seen him listed as 5'11 and variously at 175/180/185 lbs and he's just turned 18 a few weeks ago... and would it be out of the realm of possibility for him to put on 10-20 lbs as he further develops and matures? Even if he stays at 180/185... that's still not "tiny". Plenty of NHL players are at that weight or just 5 lbs heavier.

Quick look at the NHL bios of the 822 skaters to play in the NHl this season... 200 out of the 822 skaters are listed at 190 lbs or lighter... so almost 1 in 4 skaters are "lightweights". I won't even bother listing some of the elite talents among those 200 "lightweights"... but safe to say there are a whole bunch on that list that I'd love to have on the Oilers.

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04-22-2013, 12:51 PM
  #558
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You are right s7ark I've seen the comment lots. But the comment originally applied to the Cdn hockey system but now I see this applied to all systems. Barkov I believe has been in the FEL since he was 16. In our system this wouldn't happen.

So the late birthday may apply to how our system is setup but it doesn't necessarily apply to others. So being a late birthday in say Norway may mean nothing. It definitely doesn't mean being younger than other draft eligibles means you have more potential.

Here is an article that discusses the late birthdays:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/blog/2008...nd-making.html
it doesn't take a great leap of logic to say that if there are 2 players performing exactly the same, the younger player is likely to be the better prospect... this is especially true for young men, who are often not finished growing, and this effect becomes greater the younger you go... for instance the average 16 year has a lot more growing left to do than the average 18 year old does

barkov being almost a full calendar year younger than monahan is a pretty big plus for barkov... i can't believe you're arguing otherwise

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04-22-2013, 01:02 PM
  #559
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size matters, when all else is equal... no doubt... however, the problem is determining exactly *when* "all else is equal"

speaking of size, somebody said monahan is the same size as barkov, and i just wanted to point out that he is 1 inch shorter and about 10-15 pounds lighter right now... not a huge deal, but worth mentioning

i agree that the finnish development system is not as reliable as the canadian system, but i think barkov's skill level is a step above monahans and he is a little larger as well... additionally, he plays the same solid 2-way game that monahan does... the only area where i don't have barkov ahead of monahan is on faceoffs, simply because i haven't heard anything about this facet of barkov's game and monahan is supposed to be exceedingly good at them

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04-22-2013, 01:05 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by jmoss45 View Post
For the current Oilers, yes size does matter. They have such a shortage of it up front that they have to address it. Monahan plays a power forward's game, in that he protects the puck well and can cycle. Again, this matters, especially for the Oilers.


To be honest if we compare who is a better fit on this team between Monahan/Lindholm based on projecting them as J Staal/Backstrom, i'd argue Monahan/Staal type is what we need. Size, selke-caliber 2-way play, who is good on the dot and plays all situations.


Plus, I have never heard anyone compared pre-draft to Toews, until Monahan. That is extremely high praise, and something every team covets.
Because 2 inches in height makes Monahan a dominant on-ice force and Lindholm a soft, small swede? Lindholm is a very physical player and is dominant on the puck and can protect the puck as well as anyone in this draft... there's a reason his play style garners comparisons to Peter Forsberg. I don't like throwing out player comparisons because 99% of the time the players don't turn out like the people they're compared to and it's placing unwarranted expectations on the player but I'll take Forsberg over Toews every day of the week thank you.

Another fact that almost every Monahan supporter seems to ignore is that he's one of the oldest players in the draft. Barkov is like a year younger, is the same height, and weighs 25 lbs more.

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04-22-2013, 01:06 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
I gotta say... any of the top 8 picks would be solid picks... anyone here that says any of them would be redundant on the Oilers... really?

A near basement team for 4 years running doesn't have "too much" depth imo.

Drouin and Nichushkin seem to be the two players most would avoid because they are wingers... yet they may be two of the most talented and highest ceiling players in this draft.

I agree... C and D are priorities but elite talent is elite talent... if they are there and are BPA when they pick... you have to consider them.

Everyone wants a power forward for the top 6... that's Nichushkin to a T. Size, speed, skill... all 3 of the magic S's in one player. What's not to like?

Drouin is arguably the most skilled and innately talented player in this entire draft. I've read comparisons to Giroux/Kane. I don't know about others here but I wouldn't mind Giroux or Kane on the Oilers. His only knock is his size. Is he really that small though?

I've seen him listed as 5'11 and variously at 175/180/185 lbs and he's just turned 18 a few weeks ago... and would it be out of the realm of possibility for him to put on 10-20 lbs as he further develops and matures? Even if he stays at 180/185... that's still not "tiny". Plenty of NHL players are at that weight or just 5 lbs heavier.

Quick look at the NHL bios of the 822 skaters to play in the NHl this season... 200 out of the 822 skaters are listed at 190 lbs or lighter... so almost 1 in 4 skaters are "lightweights". I won't even bother listing some of the elite talents among those 200 "lightweights"... but safe to say there are a whole bunch on that list that I'd love to have on the Oilers.
First reasonable post I've seen in the past couple pages...

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04-22-2013, 01:10 PM
  #562
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Like the old saying goes... "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

We've seen Fleury-like players and Penner-like players in the NHL. Size is far secondary to their heart and desire on the ice.

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04-22-2013, 01:13 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Like the old saying goes... "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

We've seen Fleury-like players and Penner-like players in the NHL. Size is far secondary to their heart and desire on the ice.
Yes, for the most part I agree. Size can be overrated, and drive is worth more than size.


But, consider the centre in Edmonton matching up with the Thortons, Keslers, Getzlafs, Kopitars of the West? In that situation, being a bigger defensive guy is more valuable. People will point to Datsyuk, but he is an anomaly/freak.

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04-22-2013, 01:28 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by jmoss45 View Post
Yes, for the most part I agree. Size can be overrated, and drive is worth more than size.


But, consider the centre in Edmonton matching up with the Thortons, Keslers, Getzlafs, Kopitars of the West? In that situation, being a bigger defensive guy is more valuable. People will point to Datsyuk, but he is an anomaly/freak.
Again... Lindholm is 6'0 and weighs more than Monahan. Monahan is also a year older than most in the draft so by all means should be bigger.

And in regards to your example... Toews is 6'1. Couture is 6'1. Plekanec is 5'9. Mike Richards is 5'11. Since when is height indicative of what kind of competition a player can handle?

Let's look at Selke winners over the past decade and a half...

Bergeron: 6'2, 192lbs, 1x winner
Kesler: 6'2, 202 lbs, 1x winner
Datsyuk: 5'10, 190 lbs, 3x winner
Brindamour: 6'1, 205 lbs, 2x winner
Draper: 5'10, 188 lbs, 1x winner
Lehtinen: 6'0, 192 lbs, 3x winner
Peca: 5'11, 190 lbs, 2x winner
Madden: 5'11, 190 lbs, 1x winner
Yzerman: 5'11, 185 lbs, 1x winner

So... going back to 1996-1997, factoring in # of times won, your average Selke winner is... *drumroll please*

5'11, 193 lbs

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04-22-2013, 01:33 PM
  #565
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Joe Sakic - 5'11", 185lbs
Peter Forsberg - 6'0", 205lbs

RNH - 6'1", 175lbs
Lindholm - 5'11", 183lbs

All of the above was taken off hockeydb so it's likely Sakic/Forsberg's info is them as grown men well into their pro careers. Nuge and Lindholm as 20 and 18 year olds respectively (the Oilers' site has Nuge at 185 now).

Lindholm has been compared to Forsberg in terms of style on more than one occasion. The fact that he's not quite 6' now (and is likely still grownig) is no reason not to take him if he's the superior player. I could see him playing at or around Forsberg's listed height/weight during his career. Not only that, but he's outproducing Backstrom at the same age in the same league on the same team. Of course, Backstrom was his team's leading scorer and Lindholm is 3rd, but that's some pretty lofty company to be in all the same.

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04-22-2013, 01:36 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Joe Sakic - 5'11", 185lbs
Peter Forsberg - 6'0", 205lbs

RNH - 6'1", 175lbs
Lindholm - 5'11", 183lbs

All of the above was taken off hockeydb so it's likely Sakic/Forsberg's info is them as grown men well into their pro careers. Nuge and Lindholm as 20 and 18 year olds respectively (the Oilers' site has Nuge at 185 now).

Lindholm has been compared to Forsberg in terms of style on more than one occasion. The fact that he's not quite 6' now (and is likely still grownig) is no reason not to take him if he's the superior player. I could see him playing at or around Forsberg's listed height/weight during his career. Not only that, but he's outproducing Backstrom at the same age in the same league on the same team. Of course, Backstrom was his team's leading scorer and Lindholm is 3rd, but that's some pretty lofty company to be in all the same.
Hopefully Lindholm isn't quite as reckless.

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04-22-2013, 01:41 PM
  #567
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Again... Lindholm is 6'0 and weighs more than Monahan. Monahan is also a year older than most in the draft so by all means should be bigger.

And in regards to your example... Toews is 6'1. Couture is 6'1. Plekanec is 5'9. Mike Richards is 5'11. Since when is height indicative of what kind of competition a player can handle?

Let's look at Selke winners over the past decade and a half...

Bergeron: 6'2, 192lbs, 1x winner
Kesler: 6'2, 202 lbs, 1x winner
Datsyuk: 5'10, 190 lbs, 3x winner
Brindamour: 6'1, 205 lbs, 2x winner
Draper: 5'10, 188 lbs, 1x winner
Lehtinen: 6'0, 192 lbs, 3x winner
Peca: 5'11, 190 lbs, 2x winner
Madden: 5'11, 190 lbs, 1x winner
Yzerman: 5'11, 185 lbs, 1x winner

So... going back to 1996-1997, factoring in # of times won, your average Selke winner is... *drumroll please*

5'11, 193 lbs
What does that have to do with RNH and especially Gagner getting owned in puck battles and faceoffs consistantly by the likes of Kopitar, Richards, Carter, Hanzel, Big Joe, and Getzlaf.

No one ever said small players cant be good defensively. RNH has been great this season in his own end while playing all year with a torn labrum. Gagner on the other hand has looked as bad as he did in his previous 5 NHL seasons.

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04-22-2013, 01:44 PM
  #568
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Again... Lindholm is 6'0 and weighs more than Monahan. Monahan is also a year older than most in the draft so by all means should be bigger
I know I'm probably nitpicking, but Lindholm is a late birthday too.

A little less than two months younger than Monahan.

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04-22-2013, 01:45 PM
  #569
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Like the old saying goes... "It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

We've seen Fleury-like players and Penner-like players in the NHL. Size is far secondary to their heart and desire on the ice.
True, but Fleury has nothing on the motivated Penner we've seen from time to time (physically that is...)

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04-22-2013, 01:49 PM
  #570
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MacT was over in Sweden scouting Lindholm earlier this season, is that correct? I remember reading that somewhere, though I couldn't recall the article now. Sounds a bit like a swedish version of Nuge, well rounded game, high level IQ, works hard in the D zone. Monahan is a real leader, good on faceoffs and has a high skill level as well. I'm a little torn between the two, because Lindholm has been playing in the SEL with grown men, and producing, while Monahan brings that size / skill toolset that management here keeps emphasizing that they need.

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04-22-2013, 01:56 PM
  #571
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Size is an issue. Not so much with an individual player because we all can trot out examples of players that aren't that big that can fully function in this league. But for us it is greatly magnified because we are already small and already very soft. Drafting another small gifted player I think becomes a much bigger issue on our team than most other teams.

I think we are at the point that size has become a factor. I'd go as far to say that I'd be more than willing to draft a player that may be rated slightly lower just because he brings NHL size at a position we most need it. A big two way centre has to have a bullseye on it in this draft. He may not be the best player available but he would probably end up being more valuable to us. And at this point we should be drafting the best player for OUR team.

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04-22-2013, 01:58 PM
  #572
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To the guy that asked about barkovsean ability n the dot I believe he has something like 53% win rate. Mind you this is also against men and very impressive especially since last year he was about 40%. Barkov to me is th employer I want with Monahan and Lindholm coming in second. Barkov is one of this years youngest players but also one of the more advanced in all facets of the game. In the end I would not mind having any of these three but I would like Barkov.

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04-22-2013, 01:59 PM
  #573
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MacT was over in Sweden scouting Lindholm earlier this season, is that correct? I remember reading that somewhere, though I couldn't recall the article now. Sounds a bit like a swedish version of Nuge, well rounded game, high level IQ, works hard in the D zone. Monahan is a real leader, good on faceoffs and has a high skill level as well. I'm a little torn between the two, because Lindholm has been playing in the SEL with grown men, and producing, while Monahan brings that size / skill toolset that management here keeps emphasizing that they need.
Lindholm is way more aggressive and physical then Nugent-Hopkins.

Lindholm seems to have Taylor Hall level compete, but looks to be more physical.

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04-22-2013, 02:10 PM
  #574
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Yeah, there's no question Barkov would be the preference. The question is whether or not we're going to have a chance to draft him. I'd be shocked if he was on the board at #5 so a bottom 4 finish is a must (I know Nichushkin is ranked higher on some lists, but there's no way he goes that early).

I just hope that the Oilers are able to make a trade into the 3/4 spot to draft him. Despite our horrible play of late, I just don't see us finishing lower than 6. And Barkov will be long gone by then, guaranteed.

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04-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #575
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So it sounds like Lindholm has pretty good size(6'0'' 192lbs), has put up incredible SEL pre-draft numbers, is a creative playmaker, with top-end work ethic and is also very physical.

Why isn't he rated higher?

Is he not a great skater or something?

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