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WC D1A Budapest, Hungary (Final roster announced)

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04-22-2013, 12:36 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Those players taking a spot on the GB national team is not fair to the players who actually developed in the GB system.
That right there is where the argument fails.

It's not about whats fair. It's about ability. If you pick a guy who's just there because he's British over a guy who qualifies through whatever dual national rule is allowed is and is a better player, that is, quite bluntly, retarded.

It's not like were talking about a potential 20 or so guys, it's possibly between 3/4/5 perhaps a couple more depending on which imports stay in the game.

They have the ability, they qualify, everyone else does it, everyone else is fine with it. Utilize the tools at your possession, don't throw them away because of some backwards morality attitude to 'the way things should be done'.

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04-22-2013, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
That right there is where the argument fails.

It's not about whats fair. It's about ability. If you pick a guy who's just there because he's British over a guy who qualifies through whatever dual national rule is allowed is and is a better player, that is, quite bluntly, retarded.

It's not like were talking about a potential 20 or so guys, it's possibly between 3/4/5 perhaps a couple more depending on which imports stay in the game.

They have the ability, they qualify, everyone else does it, everyone else is fine with it. Utilize the tools at your possession, don't throw them away because of some backwards morality attitude to 'the way things should be done'.


It's unfair, as well as not being what is best for the status of the game.

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04-22-2013, 12:40 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
That right there is where the argument fails.

It's not about whats fair. It's about ability. If you pick a guy who's just there because he's British over a guy who qualifies through whatever dual national rule is allowed is and is a better player, that is, quite bluntly, retarded.

It's not like were talking about a potential 20 or so guys, it's possibly between 3/4/5 perhaps a couple more depending on which imports stay in the game.

They have the ability, they qualify, everyone else does it, everyone else is fine with it. Utilize the tools at your possession, don't throw them away because of some backwards morality attitude to 'the way things should be done'.
"That right there is where the argument fails"

If everyone else was jumping off bridges, would you follow?

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04-22-2013, 12:57 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
It's not about whats fair. It's about ability. If you pick a guy who's just there because he's British over a guy who qualifies through whatever dual national rule is allowed is and is a better player, that is, quite bluntly, retarded.
Indeed. Its the same sort of 'protectionist' thinking in the EIHL with regards import limits which means that very mediocre British-born players are taking home significantly more money than better quality imports.

Quote:
GB had dual nationals in the past, they managed to get to the top division one time while pissing off all the British born/trained players (I think this has been said multiple times and you have yet to acknowledge it).
Roster spots should be filled based on what a player brings to the team, not where they are born/trained, regardless of those who don't make the grade sulking. Any players that fulfill IIHF criteria should be considered.

If the pool of players is small in relation to roster spots that only they or their ilk can fill what is to stop players just turning up for training with their passports/birth certificates in hand, rather than turning up as part of a larger group and therefore having to fight/up their game for their spot?

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04-22-2013, 12:59 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
"That right there is where the argument fails"

If everyone else was jumping off bridges, would you follow?


So we should become possibly the only nation in the top 30 hockey nations to buck the trend

Jeez if you weren't Canadian I'd have you down for a straight up fingers in the ears Brit right there.

Everyone does it in the context of what we are discussing.

If the sport of jumping off cliffs becomes an international tournament, let me know and we can discuss the benefits of home grown jumpers to import jumpers.

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04-22-2013, 01:00 PM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
If the pool of players is small in relation to roster spots that only they or their ilk can fill what is to stop players just turning up for training with their passports/birth certificates in hand, rather than turning up as part of a larger group and therefore having to fight/up their game for their spot?
That is a ridiculous exaggeration.

Competition for roster spots on this years team was fierce, 40 players listed on the preliminary roster and not much between a lot of them in terms of quality.

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04-22-2013, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post


So we should become possibly the only nation in the top 30 hockey nations to buck the trend .
Its all about principles dontchaknow? You don't get medals for it but it gives you a free licence to use terms such as "maple syrup pasta boys" (as spotted on another forum) to try and sooth your bitterness.

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04-22-2013, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Competition for roster spots on this years team was fierce, 40 players listed on the preliminary roster and not much between a lot of them in terms of quality.
Competition from equally or even more poor players. Some of those 40 were purely there to make up the numbers.

"Well done, you are one of the least worst players in the UK, here is your jersey."

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04-22-2013, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by villevalo View Post


So we should become possibly the only nation in the top 30 hockey nations to buck the trend

Jeez if you weren't Canadian I'd have you down for a straight up fingers in the ears Brit right there.

Everyone does it in the context of what we are discussing.

If the sport of jumping off cliffs becomes an international tournament, let me know and we can discuss the benefits of home grown jumpers to import jumpers.
The entire Denmark roster at this years WC's is Danish trained
The entire Austrian roster last year was Austrian trained
The entire Czech roster last year was Czech trained
The entire Finnish roster
The entire Latvian roster
The entire Slovak roster
The entire Slovenian roster
The entire Swedish roster

I haven't even bothered looking at the lower divisions, so no, not "everyone" is doing it. We are far from "the only nation" bucking the trend

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04-22-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post


So we should become possibly the only nation in the top 30 hockey nations to buck the trend

Jeez if you weren't Canadian I'd have you down for a straight up fingers in the ears Brit right there.

Everyone does it in the context of what we are discussing.

If the sport of jumping off cliffs becomes an international tournament, let me know and we can discuss the benefits of home grown jumpers to import jumpers.
Actually if you look at the link I posted earlier all the Canadians were on Italy (1 American on Italy as well) + 1 on Japan. None anywhere else in Div 1A. And what Imaginary Threats just said lol

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04-22-2013, 01:12 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
Competition from equally or even more poor players. Some of those 40 were purely there to make up the numbers.

"Well done, you are one of the least worst players in the UK, here is your jersey."


if you say so

reading your post, one would think the best 40 players in the country look like the guy in that picture Paul Bissonnette once tweeted

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04-22-2013, 01:12 PM
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I actually stopped watching British ice hockey for a period during the super league days because I hated the sight of teams with no British players.

If we had a couple of players who qualified for GB, and would genuinely add to the team, then by all means select them. But it would have to be done in moderation. Filling the team with Canadians doesn't actually do anything for the game in Britain, just the same as qualifying for Pool A in 1994 with a team full of them didn't do anything for us, in the long term. We got a few more column inches, for a week or so, and then the sports pages moved on.

If the IIHF ever dropped their requirement for players to appear in the domestic leagues and we suddenly found guys like David Clarkson, Danny Taylor and Cody Payne were available and wanting to pay, then fine, go for it. Clearly they'd add quality to the team.

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04-22-2013, 01:16 PM
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This is exactly what I was saying in another conversation about GB having a lot of short term thinkers...

Most Canadians go to the EIHL when they're about 25+ years old. You have to spend 5 years there before you can get citizenship. So now you're 30+ years old, average players best days are behind them at that point, but you'd rather invest in those guys > taking a young Brit, hmm let's see like a Robert Farmer last year, who was given a chance to come to a WC, see what he needs to do to compete at the WC level, then the next year at the grizzly age of 22 he's named top Brit at the tournament...

I think I'd rather invest time in the guy who will be around the program for the next 10+ years > the guy who is playing for GB because he's eligible

You guys think too much like fans. If I've learned anything over the last few years is that fans have absolutely no idea what they want lol

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04-22-2013, 01:19 PM
  #314
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Quote:
If you say so
Debate the point rather than posting childish gifs, its what adults do.

Although you probably don't care either way, although I don't agree with many of your points, you'll get far more respect from me if you can continue a debate rather than make such puerile gestures.

Perhaps you can start with suggesting who of those not selected or chosen as 'back ups' from that initial 40 man squad were honestly in with a chance of getting a roster spot?

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04-22-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howeaboutthat View Post
Debate the point rather than posting childish gifs, its what adults do.

Although you probably don't care either way, although I don't agree with many of your points, you'll get far more respect from me if you can continue a debate rather than make such puerile gestures.

Perhaps you can start with suggesting who of those not selected or chosen as 'back ups' from that initial 40 man squad were honestly in with a chance of getting a roster spot?
Kay. Players who didn't go to Hungary:

Griffin - should have gone instead of Boothroyd IMO
Garside - played in the OGQ's and did a good job
Haywood - had a good year in the EIHL
Jamieson - played in the OGQ's
Ben O'connor - was unavailable, Boothroyd took his place
Matt Davies - had an excellent year for Hull
Russ Cowley

that's just off the top of my head

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04-22-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Kay. Players who didn't go to Hungary:

Griffin - should have gone instead of Boothroyd IMO
Garside - played in the OGQ's and did a good job
Haywood - had a good year in the EIHL
Jamieson - played in the OGQ's
Ben O'connor - was unavailable, Boothroyd took his place

that's just off the top of my head
now howaboutthat should respond with a number of players with GB citizenship who could have made the GB team, right?

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04-22-2013, 01:29 PM
  #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
This is exactly what I was saying in another conversation about GB having a lot of short term thinkers...

Most Canadians go to the EIHL when they're about 25+ years old. You have to spend 5 years there before you can get citizenship. So now you're 30+ years old, average players best days are behind them at that point, but you'd rather invest in those guys > taking a young Brit, hmm let's see like a Robert Farmer last year, who was given a chance to come to a WC, see what he needs to do to compete at the WC level, then the next year at the grizzly age of 22 he's named top Brit at the tournament...

I think I'd rather invest time in the guy who will be around the program for the next 10+ years > the guy who is playing for GB because he's eligible

You guys think too much like fans. If I've learned anything over the last few years is that fans have absolutely no idea what they want lol
You seem to think that the people like me who would allow dual nats would do to remedy GB hockey is to do just that. It's but one part of a lot of things that need to change.

Like has been stated, for whatever reasons sports get funding based on international success, look at how the swimming funding got slashed heavily after the less than expected medals at the Olympics.

You pick the best from the pool you have and you go for it, you try and get a medal, you show that medal to the people in power at the various organisations and you say look what we did with no funding, imagine what we can do with some funding. It was tiny and too late but look at what happened after winning the first Olympic qualification group, **** me we got some money finally.

Dual nats isnt the future to hang a hat on, but it's a way of trying to get that train rolling now. GB isn't in the possition to turn down dual nats because there are better GB players, there are a few dual nats who could do a better job then some of the Brits in that roster. I cant believe I'm actually arguing that the best team is taken to go to a world ****ing championships. I almost feel like I'm arguing for the fact that the players should wear skates or that they should hold the stick the right way up it's seems that basic.

We pick a good team - we do well - we either get a medal of whatever colour - we have a bloody good chance of showing the various bodies this sport deserves some money and some care.

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04-22-2013, 01:31 PM
  #318
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Villevalo no chance

Sport England told us in order for ice hockey to qualify for funding it had to be an Olympic sport or have 40,000 people participating every week (there's not even enough rinks or ice time to make the latter possible)

I already said who the available possible dual nats could be. A few ECHL level players aren't going to get us to the top pool let alone the Olympics.

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04-22-2013, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villevalo View Post
You seem to think that the people like me who would allow dual nats would do to remedy GB hockey is to do just that. It's but one part of a lot of things that need to change.

Like has been stated, for whatever reasons sports get funding based on international success, look at how the swimming funding got slashed heavily after the less than expected medals at the Olympics.

You pick the best from the pool you have and you go for it, you try and get a medal, you show that medal to the people in power at the various organisations and you say look what we did with no funding, imagine what we can do with some funding. It was tiny and too late but look at what happened after winning the first Olympic qualification group, **** me we got some money finally.

Dual nats isnt the future to hang a hat on, but it's a way of trying to get that train rolling now. GB isn't in the possition to turn down dual nats because there are better GB players, there are a few dual nats who could do a better job then some of the Brits in that roster. I cant believe I'm actually arguing that the best team is taken to go to a world ****ing championships. I almost feel like I'm arguing for the fact that the players should wear skates or that they should hold the stick the right way up it's seems that basic.

We pick a good team - we do well - we either get a medal of whatever colour - we have a bloody good chance of showing the various bodies this sport deserves some money and some care.
Say I'm the man with the money. You come to me and you tell me "look what we did with no funding, imagine what we can do with some funding"

I look at the roster.
I put money in Hockey Canada.

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04-22-2013, 01:49 PM
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Say I'm the man with the money. You come to me and you tell me "look what we did with no funding, imagine what we can do with some funding"

I look at the roster.
I put money in Hockey Canada.
Hardly fair
Hockey Canada has more money than the Thompson's of Fleet St
They managed to sell broadcast rights to TSN for how many years? Even though TSN really only wanted WJHC. HC managed to leverage that into TSN showing the Clarkson Cup, the Allan Cup, the Esso Cup, the RBC Cup, the Telus Cup..U-17 Worlds, U-18..WC.
Hell the only big shiny thing they couldn't sell was the University Cup and the Memorial Cup because HC doesn't own them

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04-22-2013, 01:50 PM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
The entire Denmark roster at this years WC's is Danish trained
The entire Austrian roster last year was Austrian trained
The entire Czech roster last year was Czech trained
The entire Finnish roster
The entire Latvian roster
The entire Slovak roster
The entire Slovenian roster
The entire Swedish roster

I haven't even bothered looking at the lower divisions, so no, not "everyone" is doing it. We are far from "the only nation" bucking the trend
Going by either a confirmed roster or last years roster:

Austrian:

Stefan Ulmer - Appears to be Swiss trained?
And the roster that got them into the top division in 2010 had two Canadian trained guys.

Czech Rep - Fair enough I'll give you that one, although the year they won it seems Marek Kvapil was Slovak trained.

Finland - Leo Komarov? Estonian born?

Latvian - In recent rosters guys like Arturs Kulda and Herberts Vasiljevs were picked.

Slovaks - Dominik Granak?

Slovenia - Greg Kuznik?

Sweden - Robert Nilsson?

The countries that don't have dual nats don't have any that are better then their home grown guys. I'm not arguing to have dual nats for the sake of it, if you have a pool of guys that qualify and the 22 or so players are all the best and all home grown then fantastic, but if the 22 best players in that pool aren't all home grown then whats the bloody problem. Especially as when the above shows that when they need to the top nations all use dual nat guys.

I mean for goodness sake, some of these teams in the WC wont even have all their best players as these 'patriots' will be playing in the playoffs. If we're arguing that dual nats shouldn't play because it's not fair on the home grown guys, what about the better nations and the Olympics. If the best guys turned the national team down for the WC's is it then not fair for the guys who played in the WC's to be replaced by the better guys? I didn't hear any outrage when Crosby scored.

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04-22-2013, 01:52 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Villevalo no chance

Sport England told us in order for ice hockey to qualify for funding it had to be an Olympic sport or have 40,000 people participating every week (there's not even enough rinks or ice time to make the latter possible)

I already said who the available possible dual nats could be. A few ECHL level players aren't going to get us to the top pool let alone the Olympics.
It's enough to try and get a medal in the group we were in.

Sport England is only one of the bodies that can give out funding. There are other initiatives that fund sport.

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04-22-2013, 01:52 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
Hardly fair
Hockey Canada has more money than the Thompson's of Fleet St
They managed to sell broadcast rights to TSN for how many years? Even though TSN really only wanted WJHC. HC managed to leverage that into TSN showing the Clarkson Cup, the Allan Cup, the Esso Cup, the RBC Cup, the Telus Cup..U-17 Worlds, U-18..WC.
Hell the only big shiny thing they couldn't sell was the University Cup and the Memorial Cup because HC doesn't own them
The point was, you aren't going to get funding by using Canadians to get a medal. The funding is wanted to help hockey at the grassroots level in GB (if not then this conversation is even sillier), you can't say "Well our team of Canadians who played a few years of pro in GB won a gold medal, so obviously there's a base to fund grass roots programs in GB!" If the success of the team wasn't in part due to the program you're seeking funding for, how can you justify the connection?

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04-22-2013, 01:53 PM
  #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Say I'm the man with the money. You come to me and you tell me "look what we did with no funding, imagine what we can do with some funding"

I look at the roster.
I put money in Hockey Canada.
So you now think the roster would be made of 22 dual nats?

Look at the Wales squad that just won the six nations, they have a couple dual nats, they will get extra funding from the bodies, once again I dont hear any shaking of fists for their involvement.


Last edited by villevalo: 04-22-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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04-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #325
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^^
I will outrage if Barbashev scores the winner for Russia against Canada in this years U-18

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