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2012-2013 NBA Discussion Thread: Defense? What is defense?

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Old
04-22-2013, 05:52 PM
  #751
ImIdaho
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Sigh. If you're really interested in the story, you can search the history of this thread (or one of the previous threads) for the full details, but it wasn't JUST one incident, it was 15 years of abuse of the fanbase by Dolan. The Lin debacle was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
And I still find it to be pathetic. All those years of being a laughing stock, the Knicks finally come back to relevancy and you trade in your colors because of Lin?!

I ask again: in the near future, when the Isles move into BK, will you toss aside your Rangers jersey because Sather and Dolan did something to affect the team? And we're talking about a franchise that has done some questionable things since their last Cup win.

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04-22-2013, 05:55 PM
  #752
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If we're going to use advanced stats, win shares are what I usually go to.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._advanced.html

Tyson, in a year not nearly as good as his DPOY year, is better than Lopez in the best year of his career. Tyson was top 5 in win shares in his DPOY year.

edit- and going by win shares, Brook is better than I thought he was. But Tyson is better.

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04-22-2013, 06:04 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
If we're going to use advanced stats, win shares are what I usually go to.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._advanced.html

Tyson, in a year not nearly as good as his DPOY year, is better than Lopez in the best year of his career. Tyson was top 5 in win shares in his DPOY year.

edit- and going by win shares, Brook is better than I thought he was. But Tyson is better.
No doubt that Brook is better than people think. He's always under achieved until this year. But in no discussion should the two even be compared defensively. Tyson is stratospheres above this guy, defensively.

Also, 2000th post.

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Old
04-22-2013, 06:23 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
And with that last statement, what are you doing other than simply saying Chandler is one of your favorite players and that's the reason you'd rather have him?

You don't like Hollinger's PER? How about PPG? Blocks? Lopez nearly DOUBLED Chandler in both. (And he actually played a few less minutes per game.) His "normal" PER is 25% higher. The one area where Chandler outperformed him was in rebounds, where he averaged 3.5 more per game. (I'll give that to you even though I think it's mostly due to the fact that Reggie Evans is sucking up every available rebound.)

But leaving stats aside - again, how much have you watched Lopez this year? Did you watch him on Saturday?

Remember I was a Knicks fan up until this year. I've watched a full season of both players (and have also had some limited viewings of Tyson this year, which I think we can all agree wasn't quite as good a year). So, you should really stop painting me with the "fan of another team who's disrespecting Chandler because I haven't watched him enough to appreciate him" brush - it's much more likely that applies to you regarding Lopez than it does to me regarding Chandler. (And if you've actually watched 70+ Nets games this year, my apologies - although, in that case, I am left scratching my head as to why you don't agree with me.)

Up until this year, I would have agreed with you that he was as good or better. When I started following the Nets, I desperately hoped that they'd be able to close the deal for Howard, which wouldn't meant Lopez and a whole slew of other pieces going the other way. Now I'm glad it never happened. Both Lopez's offense and defense have improved markedly this year and the result has been a closing of the gap with Tyson on the defensive side and a widening of the gap on the offensive side. Tyson is a great player - and he used to be the better player - but Lopez has developed and passed him.
Never said Tyson was my favorite player. Defense wins championships. Tyson is a leader. Tyson has been integral to the success of 3 separate teams (Hornets w Paul, Mavericks, Knicks). His defense helped the Mavericks top the Heat. Put current Lopez on that Mavericks team a few years back and I doubt they make it past 5.

Also, how much is Lopez actually playing against opposing centers? I feel like he's utilized as a PF while Evans is used more as the center. Lopez was PF the last couple of seasons.

Did I watch Lopez on Saturday? Nope. Does it matter? Noah's not healthy. Boozer could barely hold his own against Chris Copeland. Lopez can go rampant on their entire back court (or is it front court... I always get the two confused). Come back when he has to match up against Hibbert or Chandler.

I'm not the one negatively painting you as the fan of another team. You ARE disrespecting Chandler by even comparing Lopez to him defensively. Lopez has never, and will never, come close to matching Tyson defensively. I could care less if you jumped ship. You support who you support, its fine by me.

As for statistics. PER? Blocks? Get out of here. One of the kids I know here is some sort of beat writer/blogger for the Cavaliers and tries to whip out these same statistics. "Varejao is better than Tyson" he tells me. He referenced those same things. Tell me, would you rather have Anderson Varejao than Tyson Chandler? These are made up things man. Amare Stoudemire averaged nearly a block more in 2010-2011 (year of the Mavericks championship) than Chandler. He averaged over 15 points per game more than Chandler that season. He was only about 1.5 rebs a game behind Chandler too. Who in their right mind would put the two in the same sentence with defense? No one. The stats you give me aren't indicative of the play. Just PPG, and again, i'm not comparing the two offensively. I've already conceded that.

You can take Lopez. Go ahead. I'm choosing Chandler for far more practical reasons than you are choosing Lopez. His experience alone is far more valuable than any statistic you have to offer me. His defense is under rated and far less heralded than Lopez's offense. Sure Chandler has been worse this year but he's been unfortunate, playing through knee and back problems the entire season, and still dominating opponents relatively consistently. Grit, sound defense, experience... thats what wins championships. Tyson has all 3 of those characteristics, he's also won a championship.

Lopez? Talk to me when him and his squad face the heat next round... and thats if the Bulls don't come back.

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Old
04-22-2013, 07:54 PM
  #755
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@Imidaho: how old are you? We're you a Knicks fan in the days of Bernard and Patrick and Oak? Were you an adult when Dolan bought the team? As for all your questions, I answered them over the summer - if you care so much, go search for my answers from back then.

@Kenjets: as you are clearly a student of Chandler's history, you will no doubt recall what a monumental bust he was for YEARS after he was drafted, yes? It wasn't until well into his career that he started to get better and better and become a difference maker. Is it so hard to think that Lopez, who has done nothing but get better and better since he was drafted, is getting yet better? Clearly you are, like me, a fan of good center play. I highly encourage you to check out Lopez recently - I think you'll enjoy the experience.

Here's hoping that against all odds the Knicks and Nets meet up in these POs. Wouldn't that be fun?

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Old
04-22-2013, 08:34 PM
  #756
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
@Imidaho: how old are you? We're you a Knicks fan in the days of Bernard and Patrick and Oak? Were you an adult when Dolan bought the team? As for all your questions, I answered them over the summer - if you care so much, go search for my answers from back then.

@Kenjets: as you are clearly a student of Chandler's history, you will no doubt recall what a monumental bust he was for YEARS after he was drafted, yes? It wasn't until well into his career that he started to get better and better and become a difference maker. Is it so hard to think that Lopez, who has done nothing but get better and better since he was drafted, is getting yet better? Clearly you are, like me, a fan of good center play. I highly encourage you to check out Lopez recently - I think you'll enjoy the experience.

Here's hoping that against all odds the Knicks and Nets meet up in these POs. Wouldn't that be fun?
Why does it feel like you're not reading my responses? I've been in agreement with you that Lopez has immensely improved. Nothing I have said has been a knock on Lopez. Him and Chandler are different players. You want Lopez to be something he's not. He can't be it all. No one compared Lopez developing to Chandler developing. But even if we are, Chandler never had the offensive capabilities Lopez had and has. Similarly, Lopez doesn't have the defensive capabilities Chandler has and will never have them. They are different players with different mentalities on how to approach the game. Lopez approaches it offensively, Chandler defensively.

I don't get why you keep trying to convince me and everyone else here that Lopez is a) good and b) as good at, if not better than, defense as Chandler. Everyone is already convinced of a. No one will be convinced of b. If Lopez ever wins DPOY then i'll eat crow. I don't ever see it happening because he's not strong on that side of the ball.

And yes, I'd love to see a NY-BK match up.

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Old
04-22-2013, 08:42 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
@Imidaho: how old are you? We're you a Knicks fan in the days of Bernard and Patrick and Oak? Were you an adult when Dolan bought the team? As for all your questions, I answered them over the summer - if you care so much, go search for my answers from back then.
I was a fan when those guys were around and I don't know what relevance me being an adult when Dolan got free-reigns has to do with anything. It's a non-sequitur.

****, if you tossed aside the Knicks because of Dolan, than you probably will switch over to the Isles because...you know, he also owns the Rangers and has made as many boneheaded moves with the Rangers as he has with the Knicks. Hell, Sather is still here.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:11 PM
  #758
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Chandler and Lopez are polar opposites. Lopez is weak and soft and loses interest at times, but he can score. Chandler is a winner, a leader, plays hurt and one of the best defensive players in the game.

I'll take tough over soft any day.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:22 PM
  #759
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Even though I'm a knicks fan, I hope the Nets send the Bulls packing. I want them to wipe that Hotdog's (Nate) smirk off. The most annoying player to watch.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:32 PM
  #760
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Even though I'm a knicks fan, I hope the Nets send the Bulls packing. I want them to wipe that Hotdog's (Nate) smirk off. The most annoying player to watch.
Bulls are a team that no one wants to play. They'll take whoever to 7 until they're physically unable to compete anymore. I'm almost hoping that they beat the Nets in 7, beat the Heat in 7, and then Knicks make it far enough to get them with battered and bruised Noah and Deng.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:35 PM
  #761
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I'm a Knicks fan in the most casual of senses so I should probably get this in as a preliminary.

Nets are dumb.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:40 PM
  #762
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Something about the Nets... I don't like them. Perhaps the stain of them being in New Jersey all those years.

Nice win by the Bulls. Beat these clowns. Such an unlikeable team. Wallace, Lopez, Humphries, Williams all dis-likable.

What a game by Noah with one healthy foot he still plays. Derrick Rose should look at his teammate and man up for once.

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:51 PM
  #763
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My homeroom teacher taught Joakim Noah. Until he got expelled

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Old
04-22-2013, 11:01 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by ImIdaho View Post
I was a fan when those guys were around and I don't know what relevance me being an adult when Dolan got free-reigns has to do with anything. It's a non-sequitur.

****, if you tossed aside the Knicks because of Dolan, than you probably will switch over to the Isles because...you know, he also owns the Rangers and has made as many boneheaded moves with the Rangers as he has with the Knicks. Hell, Sather is still here.
My point is Dolan's involvement in the Knicks has been completely destructive. He shat on the fans over and over and over again, ran the organization as his personal toy and made almost ever decision out of pride and ego and to thumb his nose at anyone who ever crossed him (or who he ever THOUGHT crossed him). He undermined his own coaches and GMs, brought in truly disgusting players, ****ed over good men (and good basketball minds) while simultaneously catering to those who were obsequious toadies.

The reason why I asked how old you were is because there is a BIG difference between having lived with the proud Knicks of the first half of the nineties and having then been forced to endure Dolan's personal circus for the next 15 years, as opposed to really only getting to know the team as an adult after Dolan took over. If you were younger than 25 or so when he bought the team, I don't know that you can really appreciate what I'm talking about.

And comparing that to his ownership of the Rangers? Please - Dolan has done the exact opposite with the Rangers. He hasn't inserted himself in the operations at all. Heck, I bet you he wouldn't know half his own team if he ran into them on the street. The ONLY thing you can blame Dolan for when it comes to the Rangers is giving Slats too long a leash. I only wish he'd done the same with Donnie Walsh.

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04-22-2013, 11:10 PM
  #765
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Tough loss for the Nets tonight- and good D by the Bulls, no doubt. I doubt D-Will and JJ continue to go a combined 7-27, but if the Bulls can hold them to that, they deserve to win. (I put some of this on PJ for keeping Wallace and Evans in together too long and completely ruining the spacing when Wallace was cold again. I'll be very surprised if he doesn't adjust his rotation if that happens again next game.)

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04-23-2013, 04:03 AM
  #766
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Kershaw I agree, something about the Nets puts me off too, can't seem to put my finger on it. You look at a team like the Thunder who moved from Seattle to OKC and I enjoy the way they play, likable team (aside from Westbrook who I can't stand). Then you look at the Nets and it seems like a circus act to me. Oh well, they still have time.

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04-23-2013, 04:49 AM
  #767
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That's a poor and horrible excuse. So if Sather goofs something in the near future, you'll commit to being an Isles fan?

And I live in Brooklyn and here's what I have to say on both the Nets and Islanders: **** 'em!
Yeah, same here. Live in BK and will Always be a Ranger fan. He'll I'd come to the new Islanders are a just to boo them. The Nets have a stink on them that won't leave for at least 10 more years. They're from Jersey, how can they be affiliated with Brooklyn? And a rapper as an investor?

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04-23-2013, 06:13 AM
  #768
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Yeah, same here. Live in BK and will Always be a Ranger fan. He'll I'd come to the new Islanders are a just to boo them. The Nets have a stink on them that won't leave for at least 10 more years. They're from Jersey, how can they be affiliated with Brooklyn? And a rapper as an investor?
Pretty sure he's already out of the organization now that he's setting up his own sports agency.

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04-23-2013, 07:13 AM
  #769
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New Jersey losing makes me happy. Let's hope our Knicks can go up 2-0 tonight.

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04-23-2013, 12:03 PM
  #770
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New Jersey losing makes me happy. Let's hope our Knicks can go up 2-0 tonight.
I'd love to see Miami play Chicago in the second round. The Heat will get beat the hell up playing against Noah, and if we advance to the ECF and play the Heat I think that'd be awesome.

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04-23-2013, 08:55 PM
  #771
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Chandler looks really bad.

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04-23-2013, 09:01 PM
  #772
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All started with JR smith and his ball hog act. Stop trying to play hero, JR.

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04-23-2013, 10:13 PM
  #773
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Keep hogging the ball, JR.

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04-23-2013, 10:15 PM
  #774
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Steve Novak is so awful, it's actually impressive.

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04-23-2013, 10:17 PM
  #775
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Woodson gotta limit JR's playing time if he continues to make stupid plays.

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