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Who is the most overrated player of all time?

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04-22-2013, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Seriously? The guy was such a superstar he was put on a soap opera when he still looked like a kid.
What other athlete was so big that people thought he would be a draw for a bunch of stay at home moms who watch soaps?
Kevin Weekes, Rob Niedermayer, and Bill Guerin were on "All My Children." They gave Kelly Ripa hockey jerseys for her baby. It was horrible.

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04-22-2013, 09:27 PM
Jules Winnfield
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Most overrated player? Just my opinion but I'd say whoever PeeAir McGuire falls in love with in a season. For a few years, even though I love the way he plays, it was Mike Richards.

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04-22-2013, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Basques and Catalans usually prefer to emphasise their background.
You don't call a Welsh person English.
But you can call both a Welsh person and an English person British. Also, you can call a Scot a Brit. And anyone from Northern Ireland, just for completeness.

Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
3 goals in particular, gwg of each of the last 3 games in the Summit series.

if he had only gotten the last one he might have been remembered for it somewhat differently (still had a great series), though the goal itself would still have been the Canadian goal of all time.

Not having gotten in the HHOF, I don't see how he is overrated. No one is clamouring to get him in.

Definitely an icon, but his hockey is not overrated IMO
Bolded is false; there are definitely fans out there who feel that he should be in the Hall for his performance in that series.

Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Again, I don't know what this has to do with anything. You said Fedorov was better offensively and better defensively than Datsyuk for, 'several seasons'. I pointed out that this wasn't true. You then resorted to the, 'linemates' argument. Now you've changed the parameters again into some comparison between Harvey and Lidstrom.

I think this kind of proves my point that Fedorov is overrated. The fact that you've know somehow managed to drag a defenseman who played 40 years ago into tryning to disprove that his time as top-five scorer was just a fluke (it was), sort of proves my point.

Fedorov was a top five scorer once, yet gets credit for that one season like he did it twenty times. That is essentially the definition of overrated.
The reason Fedorov is credited with having been a dominant scorer through the 90s is because he had his years in the early 90s where he had the big RS like 93-94, and then he had the four-year streak of 20-point playoffs. Nobody puts him on a scoring tier for prime or career with a guy like Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, etc., but that is what you seem to think happens. The reason he is so highly rated is because he was very good offensively, defensively dominant, and he brought his best play when it was needed most, RS and PO. Big games in the regular season? Fedorov was key. Overtime? Look to Fedorov for a goal. Playoffs? One of the best playoff performers of his generation.

He's underrated for the same reason he started getting fewer Selke votes after 1995-96; his offensive "cliff" in the regular season suggests that his level of play dropped from "elite center" to "good center" when not read with the proper context of what actually happened.

It's like the "Jay Bouwmeester sucks because he's not scoring" stuff, when his coach (then Brent Sutter) didn't want him jumping into the play. Hard to score as many points as you normally do if you don't jump into the play.

Or the "Matt Stajan sucks" stuff, because Sutter moved him to the third line 55 games into his Calgary career and left him in the bottom six; he had been on pace for close to 60 points per 82 games as a Flame when the move was made. Bob Hartley comes in, gives him a chance to play, and he shows he can still play as a top-six center.

The only thing they have in common is they both played a second-line role behind one of the top offensive players of their era.
They and Brett Hull are the only players to win the Hart trophy other than Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky between 1980 and 1994; Gretzky's first Hart (tied for most points, lost tiebreaker on goals) in 1980 and his final scoring title in 1994.

As I said, they are both ranked highly for a couple of great regular season performances and excellent playoff performance.

I could say the same thing about Doug Weight. If Fedorov is comparable to Messier, than he's a extremely poor man's Messier, with still some big holes in his resume. And it doesn't change the fact that he's overrated.
Doug Weight doesn't have 4x20, or a Hart. Or two Selkes. And it's entirely possible Fedorov may be overrated. But if that is the case, it is one more thing he has in common with Messier, who is the poster boy for overrated centers in the past thirty years.

No, if the DPE doesn't happen, he still doesn't finish in the top-five of scoring anymore than he already did (because everyone else's scoring also increases) and he remains overrated as he currently is.
If the DPE doesn't happen, Fedorov is using his speed as much more of a weapon. He gets more of an increase in scoring opportunities than slower players; open hockey favors fast players, and Fedorov was the fastest. Also, Detroit in general likely plays a more offensive style if it's early-90s scoring situation. So he's playing Selke-quality defense while possibly scoring 90-100 points per season. Under that situation, Bowman may also very well have chosen to play him in more offensive minutes.

You know who is also on that list? Mike Ricci, who played a defensive center role on a powerhouse team that had Sakic and Forsberg at center. Wow. That's actually tougher competition than Yzerman and Draper. Using all the excuses made for Fedorov, maybe Ricci's offense was held back like Fedorov's was???
According to the PHWA voters, Mike Ricci was the best center on the Nordiques and a top-ten center in the NHL in 1992-93, when he was behind two 100-point scorers in Sakic and Sundin.

[quote]And that affects 1993 vs 1994 how?[quote]

Fedorov, completely separate from his offense, was viewed as an elite defensive player. Gilmour received Selke votes here and there and had a high finish when he was a top-five scorer, but his Selke votes generally followed his offense. That suggests that voters see a player who plays good defense scoring more than normal, and assume that his defensive play is also increased by this factor. Often it is the opposite; Valtteri Filppula in 2011-12 set a career high in points, but had what was arguably his worst season defensively. If he had been a Selke candidate in prior years, he might have been a winner that year based on the trends in Gilmour's Selke voting.

Yep, and yet somehow none of them have ever played together, ever benefitted from each others' presence (either defensively or offensively), played on the powerplay together, or even had decent wingers. Quite the system they have there.
Yzerman had John Ogrodnick, briefly, before Ogrodnick was traded for Brent Ashton. Ashton was later swapped for an aging Paul MacLean, who would become the third-best winger Yzerman had ever played with at that point after Ogrodnick and Gerard Gallant. MacLean was traded after one season because Adam Oates didn't want to sign what the Wings wanted to pay him, and the Wings didn't want to pay Oates what he wanted. The next decent winger to make an appearance next to Yzerman was Paul Ysebaert, who had a pretty solid season with Yzerman in 91-92 but his statistical line was clearly being carried. Yzerman spent a season with Dino Ciccarelli the next year, and his old mate Gallant was back on the left side. Yzerman carried perennial 30-goal guy Ray Sheppard to a 50-goal season in 93-94, and then a "projected" 50-goal season in 94-95. In 95-96, Yzerman didn't have any quality on his wing except when Primeau was there, which wasn't always. In 1996-97, Shanahan was acquired, and he played on Larionov's line that season and the following season, before switching it up and being added to Yzerman's line.

Fedorov had Kozlov for a while. Ciccarelli for a short time also. Briefly, and on the PP, he played with Larionov as well.

Larionov played with all of Shanahan, Fedorov, Kozlov.

Uhh, okay.
Ok... you clearly don't understand. It means that "When Gilmour was on the ice with Fedorov, Fedorov prevented Gilmour from getting any chances. Toronto tried to avoid that matchup and Gilmour's scoring line against Detroit is proof of success or failure."

Answer me one question: If Fedorov's 120-point season happens in 1993, do you think he wins the Hart over Lemieux that year?
No, I don't think it does at 120 points, with Yzerman reduced to 82 points in 58 games.

However, 1992-93 was a notably higher scoring season even than 1993-94 (it was about a goal different) so if we adjust Fedorov's raw points based on that, he comes out with something like 138 points. Yzerman, OTOH, would have had ~95 points in 58 games.

He's ahead of Gilmour in Hart voting at that point; probably gets the second-team selection, but unlikely that he beats Lemieux for the Hart.

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