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Old
04-20-2013, 11:59 PM
  #76
flapanthersfan
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Originally Posted by Ghoste View Post
Probably because this is only his second NHL season. And it's shortened to boot.

I see your point of view, but I have to keep reminding myself that the kid is still really young. Let him fully heal (as well as the rest of the team) and see his game next season.

-ghoste
like i've said time and time again, i am not writing off gudbranson as a bust. no where near it. at least 2 more seasons until i'm ready to do that.

but this far, he's been god-awful. that's all i'm saying. i hope he does a complete 180 and turns it around like Pronger did. but so far, 2 seasons in, he's been bad. (deleted)


Last edited by angry_treefrog: 04-21-2013 at 12:29 PM.
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04-21-2013, 11:24 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
awww - someone upset that their favorite player is actually being held accountable for his play? learn to be objective instead of an unfathomable homer.

i'm the idiot. yet it's you who adds absolutely nothing to the conversation every time you post. if you ceased to exist the forum would be exactly the same.

let me know when your IQ hits triple digits. then maybe you can call me an idiot. but since that will never happen, you should behave and go back under your rock.
Lmao, nope! I have been objectionable. I take everything into account. You despise him as a pick so you relentlessly bash him at every chance. It's stupid, boring, and childish. But I'm not surprised.

I've added enough throughout. Who brings up +/- when the whole team is injured, it's an ahl squad, the forwards are kids and obviously make glaring defensive mistakes, and the goaltending had been atrocious?

Everything I've previously said still stands.

ZZZZzzzzz....

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04-21-2013, 11:25 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
like i've said time and time again, i am not writing off gudbranson as a bust. no where near it. at least 2 more seasons until i'm ready to do that.

but this far, he's been god-awful. that's all i'm saying. i hope he does a complete 180 and turns it around like Pronger did. but so far, 2 seasons in, he's been bad. that's all i'm saying and anyone who disagrees is blind or just a blatant homer...or both, like Laus723.
Yes you are. Period. That's why your relentless. It's sad.

(deleted)I've hammered plenty of popular players. (deleted) I therefore take everything into account. I don't sit here and whine because we didn't take Fowler. Awful? (deleted)


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04-21-2013, 12:10 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
He's on pace to be a -56 over an 82 game schedule with absolutely zero offensive game. you're right, he's not an AHL caliber player right now. there's probably players in the ECHL who could match that type of "production".
Well based on your logic here, Bjugstad would be a -80 over a full season so we should just forget about him as even an ECHL player too...maybe he can play in some beer league. If you are seriously using +/- to determine a player's (especially a d-man) worth, you should just stop posting now and follow another sport. Heck, how about Petrovic over a full season would be a staggering -126 so lets just forget about him too.

Fine that you dont like Gudbranson and/or that we picked him at #3 (please dont deny this as you have posted on the prospects boards as well saying you dont like the pick of him at #3) but you can stop posting asinine stuff like this and realize that he's an NHL d-man on almost every team in the league. Even if he has struggled at times, he's basically got 1.5 yrs of experience in the NHL and thats not enough to even judge a player both now and for the future.

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04-22-2013, 03:29 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Well based on your logic here, Bjugstad would be a -80 over a full season so we should just forget about him as even an ECHL player too...maybe he can play in some beer league. If you are seriously using +/- to determine a player's (especially a d-man) worth, you should just stop posting now and follow another sport. Heck, how about Petrovic over a full season would be a staggering -126 so lets just forget about him too.
are you seriously comparing a sample size of 3 games vs 32 games? probably the most idiotic statistical analogy i've ever seen.

stats are just the proof in the pudding. never been a big stat guy myself, but it's just more data to back up his unbelievably putrid play.

and as far as bjugstad - he's clearly not even remotely close to being an NHL-ready player right now either, so again, another absolutely terrible analogy.
Quote:
Fine that you dont like Gudbranson and/or that we picked him at #3 (please dont deny this as you have posted on the prospects boards as well saying you dont like the pick of him at #3) but you can stop posting asinine stuff like this and realize that he's an NHL d-man on almost every team in the league. Even if he has struggled at times, he's basically got 1.5 yrs of experience in the NHL and thats not enough to even judge a player both now and for the future.
do you and everyone here have problems reading? i've said several times i'm not giving up on him. i still think he's going to be a good player despite his brutal play thus far. he's a good skater for his size and plays with a huge edge. very quality attributes for a 6'4 d'man. but his upside is limited. he will be a very mediocre player, a second pairing shutdown d-man like a Willie Mitchell. very good, useful player to have. but not the type of player you generally want to pick at #3.

that being said - i'm not blind or stupid enough to acknowledge that, thus far, he's been horrendous. that doesn't mean he is going to "bust" or i think he's going to bust. i think he's going to become what i've always thought he'd become. a good, second pairing d-man. useful. but not #3 worthy. that's my problem with the pick. not that gudbranson sucks. it'd poor value. if you pick #3, you should get a potential star which gudbranson will never be.

huberdeau at #3 was a great pick. gudbranson at #3 was not. that doesn't mean i hate gudbranson. i don't. everyone here reads truth and critical analysis as hate. it's not ****ing hate. it's the truth.

jose theodore was terrible this year and i was the one who was most critical of his play. i don't hate theodore. i love theodore. the first goalie to get us into the playoffs since Trevor Kidd will always have a soft spot in my heart. but he was bad, i said he was bad and i got lambasted for it then too.

learn to be objective instead of being disgusting homers.


Last edited by flapanthersfan: 04-22-2013 at 03:35 AM.
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04-22-2013, 09:37 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
are you seriously comparing a sample size of 3 games vs 32 games? probably the most idiotic statistical analogy i've ever seen.

stats are just the proof in the pudding. never been a big stat guy myself, but it's just more data to back up his unbelievably putrid play.

and as far as bjugstad - he's clearly not even remotely close to being an NHL-ready player right now either, so again, another absolutely terrible analogy.
Again, you're using stats to back up your position so its just as idiotic for you to use 32 games in a shorten season with a guy coming off major shoulder surgery with only 2 games before playing 18+ mins/night. If you dont remember it, Horton struggled after coming back from his surgery too and that can take quite a while to fully recover from.
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
do you and everyone here have problems reading? i've said several times i'm not giving up on him. i still think he's going to be a good player despite his brutal play thus far. he's a good skater for his size and plays with a huge edge. very quality attributes for a 6'4 d'man. but his upside is limited. he will be a very mediocre player, a second pairing shutdown d-man like a Willie Mitchell. very good, useful player to have. but not the type of player you generally want to pick at #3.

that being said - i'm not blind or stupid enough to acknowledge that, thus far, he's been horrendous. that doesn't mean he is going to "bust" or i think he's going to bust. i think he's going to become what i've always thought he'd become. a good, second pairing d-man. useful. but not #3 worthy. that's my problem with the pick. not that gudbranson sucks. it'd poor value. if you pick #3, you should get a potential star which gudbranson will never be.
See the difference is you just see his brutal play so far and say he has limited upside. The fact that he's got attributes that all teams like, means he has a lot of upside actually. He has a hard shot that he's improved since being drafted to be more accurate. As he's given more opportunities to use it, his offense will improve as well. He does make the obvious young d-man mistakes but I think that just comes with more playing time. You only see a 2nd pairing d-man whereas most of us see him developing more into a top pairing guy. But no he's not that today and expecting him to be just because he was a #3 overall pick is just naive at the very least.

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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
huberdeau at #3 was a great pick. gudbranson at #3 was not. that doesn't mean i hate gudbranson. i don't. everyone here reads truth and critical analysis as hate. it's not ****ing hate. it's the truth.

jose theodore was terrible this year and i was the one who was most critical of his play. i don't hate theodore. i love theodore. the first goalie to get us into the playoffs since Trevor Kidd will always have a soft spot in my heart. but he was bad, i said he was bad and i got lambasted for it then too.

learn to be objective instead of being disgusting homers.
The problem is that you're not being critical in your analysis at all. If you were, you wouldnt use the terms, "horrendous" to describe his play. You can say he makes bad mistakes and thats being critical of him or that he's struggled this yr with overcommitting to physical play, thats fine. But you have to learn how to properly analyze and explain your position or you will keep getting lambasted for it. Saying Theo was bad is not critical analysis, that was just stating that he isnt playing well. Critical analysis would be like he's overcommitting to one side, he's leaving his 5 hole open, etc. And at Theo's age, maybe he's just slowing down which is a big factor for goalies, they need to able to react quickly.

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04-22-2013, 09:37 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
are you seriously comparing a sample size of 3 games vs 32 games? probably the most idiotic statistical analogy i've ever seen.

stats are just the proof in the pudding. never been a big stat guy myself, but it's just more data to back up his unbelievably putrid play.

and as far as bjugstad - he's clearly not even remotely close to being an NHL-ready player right now either, so again, another absolutely terrible analogy.


do you and everyone here have problems reading? i've said several times i'm not giving up on him. i still think he's going to be a good player despite his brutal play thus far. he's a good skater for his size and plays with a huge edge. very quality attributes for a 6'4 d'man. but his upside is limited. he will be a very mediocre player, a second pairing shutdown d-man like a Willie Mitchell. very good, useful player to have. but not the type of player you generally want to pick at #3.

that being said - i'm not blind or stupid enough to acknowledge that, thus far, he's been horrendous. that doesn't mean he is going to "bust" or i think he's going to bust. i think he's going to become what i've always thought he'd become. a good, second pairing d-man. useful. but not #3 worthy. that's my problem with the pick. not that gudbranson sucks. it'd poor value. if you pick #3, you should get a potential star which gudbranson will never be.

huberdeau at #3 was a great pick. gudbranson at #3 was not. that doesn't mean i hate gudbranson. i don't. everyone here reads truth and critical analysis as hate. it's not ****ing hate. it's the truth.

jose theodore was terrible this year and i was the one who was most critical of his play. i don't hate theodore. i love theodore. the first goalie to get us into the playoffs since Trevor Kidd will always have a soft spot in my heart. but he was bad, i said he was bad and i got lambasted for it then too.

learn to be objective instead of being disgusting homers.
honestly i think everyone should step back and look at gudbranson as a guy who played on a horrific defense this season. everyone back there was horrible. he didn't drop the gloves once which tells me that shoulder injury prob. is a big thing on him not progressing this season.

i think with a strong offseason and knowing there will be an nhl season with a training camp next year. he'll come back strong as ever.

i love his physical play i don't want him to stop hitting guys cuz of misconducts and so on. cuz if he takes that part away from his game then yes he wont be anywhere near the player we want him to become.

dmen take a long while to really come into their own. i mean jovo stepped in an could play but his offensive game didn't happen until he left to vancouver.bouwmeester didn't put up offensive numbers till 4 or 5 years in.

i say gudbranson has the talent to be a top shut down guy. just gotta let him have a solid offseason and comeback 100 percent he'll be fine.

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Old
04-22-2013, 11:53 AM
  #83
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Guys, there's no use. This guy's right, everyone else is wrong, Gudbranson is an ECHL player and anyone who disagrees is a homer. lol

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04-22-2013, 02:02 PM
  #84
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Isn't the normalized development curve for defensmen supposed to be 300 games ?


Gudbranson has played 104 games. So he still has some time before he gets "written off as a bust." He hasn't played physical this season, probably because of his shoulder.

The thing that worries me with Gudbranson are his passing and puck handling in the defensive zone. Seems like he is too worried about turning the puck over...so he just slams it off the boards and turns the puck over.


Kulikov has played 232 games. He probably is what he is at this point a solid but unspectacular 2nd pairing PMD.

The whole team has been bad this year. Players have been hurt, lines and pairings in constant flux. Being comfortable with who you play with is a big deal...better communication...better puck retrieval, D to D transfers, and better breakout.
I know its an excuse and I don't really know how much all that can effect how well a player performs. But it is a thing.

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04-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flapanthersfan View Post
awww - someone upset that their favorite player is actually being held accountable for his play? learn to be objective instead of an unfathomable homer.

i'm the idiot. yet it's you who adds absolutely nothing to the conversation every time you post. if you ceased to exist the forum would be exactly the same.

let me know when your IQ hits triple digits. then maybe you can call me an idiot. but since that will never happen, you should behave and go back under your rock.
Jeeze. What is your problem? Grow up. You're trying to present yourself as this objective observer, but are wayyy too emotional about the subject. Its taking away from the receptability of your points, man (some of which are good ones)

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04-22-2013, 02:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by gizmo12688 View Post
Nice. Hopes he makes the team next season. Pretty big D core.
Hi, hockey fan from Norway coming in peace.
You know what they say. Small guys have to prove they can play in The NHL,big guys must prove they can't
Sad so many teams choose size over skills.

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04-22-2013, 02:26 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Isn't the normalized development curve for defensmen supposed to be 300 games ?


Gudbranson has played 104 games. So he still has some time before he gets "written off as a bust." He hasn't played physical this season, probably because of his shoulder.

The thing that worries me with Gudbranson are his passing and puck handling in the defensive zone. Seems like he is too worried about turning the puck over...so he just slams it off the boards and turns the puck over.


Kulikov has played 232 games. He probably is what he is at this point a solid but unspectacular 2nd pairing PMD.

The whole team has been bad this year. Players have been hurt, lines and pairings in constant flux. Being comfortable with who you play with is a big deal...better communication...better puck retrieval, D to D transfers, and better breakout.
I know its an excuse and I don't really know how much all that can effect how well a player performs. But it is a thing.
Agree with that 100%. He probably leads the team in icings too.

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04-22-2013, 02:56 PM
  #88
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Hi, hockey fan from Norway coming in peace.
You know what they say. Small guys have to prove they can play in The NHL,big guys must prove they can't
Sad so many teams choose size over skills.
I have never heard anybody say this. If you think players get a free pass to the NHL because they are tall you are sorely mistaken.

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04-23-2013, 01:51 AM
  #89
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Again, you're using stats to back up your position so its just as idiotic for you to use 32 games in a shorten season with a guy coming off major shoulder surgery with only 2 games before playing 18+ mins/night. If you dont remember it, Horton struggled after coming back from his surgery too and that can take quite a while to fully recover from.
32 games is a legitimate sample size - 3 games is not. it's not comparable and to insinuate it is is laughable.

regardless - petrovic clearly isn't NHL ready, either, so even if it did hold merit, you prove nothing.



Quote:
See the difference is you just see his brutal play so far and say he has limited upside. The fact that he's got attributes that all teams like, means he has a lot of upside actually. He has a hard shot that he's improved since being drafted to be more accurate. As he's given more opportunities to use it, his offense will improve as well. He does make the obvious young d-man mistakes but I think that just comes with more playing time. You only see a 2nd pairing d-man whereas most of us see him developing more into a top pairing guy. But no he's not that today and expecting him to be just because he was a #3 overall pick is just naive at the very least.
he has no offensive ability, which is why he has limited upside. he has no puck skills, he will never be a contributor offensively. alexei semenov had one of the hardest shots in the NHL i've ever seen. a hard shot means nothing if you don't have the awareness and ability with the puck to get the shot off.

Quote:
The problem is that you're not being critical in your analysis at all. If you were, you wouldnt use the terms, "horrendous" to describe his play. You can say he makes bad mistakes and thats being critical of him or that he's struggled this yr with overcommitting to physical play, thats fine. But you have to learn how to properly analyze and explain your position or you will keep getting lambasted for it. Saying Theo was bad is not critical analysis, that was just stating that he isnt playing well. Critical analysis would be like he's overcommitting to one side, he's leaving his 5 hole open, etc. And at Theo's age, maybe he's just slowing down which is a big factor for goalies, they need to able to react quickly.

if you knew what you were talking about you'd realize i did exactly at the beginning of the season with nhlfan9191 about theodore (i think thats his name)

you want to know what makes gudbranson's play horrendous?

-his positioning/awareness stinks. he's constantly caught out of position. whether it be him being overly aggressive and trying to finish a check when he should be more concerned about leaving the front of the net wide open or just not properly realizing who is his man and when to rotate to a different player....he's as bad as strachan is at this, if not worse.

his neutral zone play is bad. he lacks confidence and backs off the forwards too much making it too easy to gain entry into our zone.

his play with the puck is bad. he, again, has no confidence and instead of holding the puck for that extra second to make a tape to tape pass, he banks it off the boards every time which leads to loss of possession. he and kuba are absolutely abysmal at getting our forwards the puck. we end up chasing the puck because of this.

his play in the offensive zone stinks. he adds nothing in the offensive zone. n-o-t-h-i-n-g

lets break it down: he's bad defensively. he's bad offensively. what else is there?

he brings a physical presence and that's all. he's not here to be a goon. we need him to become a good player and he's just not yet

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04-23-2013, 01:56 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Isn't the normalized development curve for defensmen supposed to be 300 games ?


Gudbranson has played 104 games. So he still has some time before he gets "written off as a bust." He hasn't played physical this season, probably because of his shoulder.
yes - 300 games. and no one is writing him off as a bust.

he's been plenty physical this year...he just hasn't fought. that doesn't mean he's not hitting people. how many BS boarding calls has he gotten? seems like 5,253 of them.

Quote:
The thing that worries me with Gudbranson are his passing and puck handling in the defensive zone. Seems like he is too worried about turning the puck over...so he just slams it off the boards and turns the puck over.
lack of puck skills + no confidence

Quote:
Kulikov has played 232 games. He probably is what he is at this point a solid but unspectacular 2nd pairing PMD.
i'll give him one more year before i write him off, too. he's very good positionally and moves the puck well. if he can clean up the occasional glaring brainfarts and up his offensive game a bit (HIT THE DAMN NET!), he can still be a first pairing player.

Quote:
The whole team has been bad this year. Players have been hurt, lines and pairings in constant flux. Being comfortable with who you play with is a big deal...better communication...better puck retrieval, D to D transfers, and better breakout.
I know its an excuse and I don't really know how much all that can effect how well a player performs. But it is a thing.
all that effects players greatly. hockey's a team game. but guys like kuba and strachan have to deal with all that crap too. they get flack from fans here for being terrible (which they are) - but gudbranson doesn't. it's a double standard and the only reason they do it is because he's erik gudbranson.

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04-23-2013, 08:34 AM
  #91
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I have never heard anybody say this. If you think players get a free pass to the NHL because they are tall you are sorely mistaken.
Heh, heh, i hate to bring this back, but Rick Dudley and Redwood defense.

JOL

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04-23-2013, 08:36 AM
  #92
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Eklund tweeted yesterday that forwards should be afraid of entering our zone in the future when they see Petrovic and Jones there. I would be more afraid of seeing Petrovic and Gudbranson there, because both are more physical than Jones.

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04-23-2013, 08:40 AM
  #93
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The only people who bring up +/- in this season (shortened, injury plagued, coming off a major shoulder surgery, clearly not who he was last season physically), are either fans of other teams and don't watch him, or they're on a mission. Not hard to to do the math here.

I'm a homer?? To a degree, absolutely. Still call out players...deservedly. I see the whole picture, and I'm not butt hurt we didn't take another player.

I relentlessly defend him because a certain individual relentlessly (and blindly) bashes him at every turn. Ain't gonna stop, unless the kid doesn't develop further.

Again, WHOLE PICTURE. I'm not a homer because I disagree with a horrible assessment.

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04-23-2013, 09:36 AM
  #94
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Petro + Guds in the back end will be freakin monstrous line in the near future. Imagine when Racine fills out...jeez..

I do believe Guds will be a tough as nails dman that we really need, but I think everyone is basically yapping about him because he was a 3rd overall pick. I understand that dmen take longer to develop but the tendency is that you get to see what kind of package you get after a couple months of his play. I think everyone here has a general idea of what kind of package we are getting.

If guds was drafted in this years draft, or last years draft where would you put him? That is where it gets a bit interesting.

I believe guds still needs more time, better linemates, and then everyone here will appreciate his play. Just his presence, when he gets comfortable of course, will incite the type of play we desperately need. The fact we have Petro emitting the same type of gritty play will help us build a team that other teams will hate to face against.

PATIENCE BROTHERS! DAWN APPROACHES!


...


after the draft and other stuff..


Last edited by ursavolta: 04-23-2013 at 10:05 AM.
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04-23-2013, 10:39 AM
  #95
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I think Guds' passes are fine to be honest.

-ghoste

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04-23-2013, 10:49 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by ursavolta View Post
Petro + Guds in the back end will be freakin monstrous line in the near future. Imagine when Racine fills out...jeez..

I do believe Guds will be a tough as nails dman that we really need, but I think everyone is basically yapping about him because he was a 3rd overall pick. I understand that dmen take longer to develop but the tendency is that you get to see what kind of package you get after a couple months of his play. I think everyone here has a general idea of what kind of package we are getting.

If guds was drafted in this years draft, or last years draft where would you put him? That is where it gets a bit interesting.

I believe guds still needs more time, better linemates, and then everyone here will appreciate his play. Just his presence, when he gets comfortable of course, will incite the type of play we desperately need. The fact we have Petro emitting the same type of gritty play will help us build a team that other teams will hate to face against.

PATIENCE BROTHERS! DAWN APPROACHES!


...


after the draft and other stuff..

i feel there's a big issue with who he plays with. he played with an old jovo and a horrible kuba or whoever he was playing with.

Put him up with Campbell for a year and you'll see the development curve that Garrison took... atleast thats what i think

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04-23-2013, 11:02 AM
  #97
adam graves
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Lmao, nope! I have been objectionable. I take everything into account. You despise him as a pick so you relentlessly bash him at every chance. It's stupid, boring, and childish. But I'm not surprised.

I've added enough throughout. Who brings up +/- when the whole team is injured, it's an ahl squad, the forwards are kids and obviously make glaring defensive mistakes, and the goaltending had been atrocious?

Everything I've previously said still stands.

ZZZZzzzzz....
I am in shock that people are evaluating Guds in his 2nd yr in a bastardized season with a recovering injured shoulder and no training camp.

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04-23-2013, 11:12 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
I am in shock that people are evaluating Guds in his 2nd yr in a bastardized season with a recovering injured shoulder and no training camp.

I was only commenting on his play this season.

Guds will get better, because he actually cares.

He played really well in the playoffs last year.

Its been the classic "nothing is as good as it seems, and nothing is as bad as it seems" seasons back to back for us. We are not as good as we were last year, but we are also not as bad as we are this year.

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04-23-2013, 11:21 AM
  #99
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Jesus guys, make a bashing thread for Guds if you hate him so much. Feels like every thread around here turns into a one these days.

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04-23-2013, 11:47 AM
  #100
adam graves
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Originally Posted by Haj View Post
I was only commenting on his play this season.

Guds will get better, because he actually cares.

He played really well in the playoffs last year.

Its been the classic "nothing is as good as it seems, and nothing is as bad as it seems" seasons back to back for us. We are not as good as we were last year, but we are also not as bad as we are this year.
Agree with all that.

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