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Old
04-23-2013, 03:20 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I think there's a pretty wide gap between Tortorella's opinion of Kreider and where he is in his development, and that of the people who are controlling the roster moves. My issue lies less with Tortorella giving him 4 minutes of ice, but in the fact that the organization seems content with calling him up to play 4 minutes a night. If you want a guy who can play on the 4th line for under 7 minutes per game, do we not have more suitable options than Kreider? Especially considering the kid seemed to finally be putting a bit of a streak together before his umpteenth call-up.
At this point, with the Whale eliminated, I'd rather have CK on the fourth line working on what he needs to work on (playing with tenacity, following through on hits, hustling for all of every shift) than have him doing nothing. Also, I suspect that he would have moved up in the lineup and gotten more minutes had he earned them with his forth line play. He's been better, but with the team in the position it's in, he would need to really assert himself to get more minutes at this point, and he just hasn't done that.

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04-23-2013, 03:28 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Derek Stepan is an incredibly smart hockey player and Chris Kreider is a dumb one by NHL standards. I think that had a ton to do with it.
I don't really think dumb is the right word. His hockey education is a bit lacking--growing up he never really got the competition that a lot of others in his draft class did. Big fish in a small pond--his size and extraordinary athleticism gets him through 3 years of highly competitive college hockey but so far his adjustment as a pro has not been easy. He is still learning how to play--and part of the process is to do the right thing automatically without too much thinking involved. If he'd been through all the rigors--the years that a CHL player in Canada would have a lot of what he's going through now would not be nearly as bad. The physical dynamics that he brings to the table make him potentially a special player--he just doesn't have the hockey experience that others do.

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04-23-2013, 03:36 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
I don't really think dumb is the right word. His hockey education is a bit lacking--growing up he never really got the competition that a lot of others in his draft class did. Big fish in a small pond--his size and extraordinary athleticism gets him through 3 years of highly competitive college hockey but so far his adjustment as a pro has not been easy. He is still learning how to play--and part of the process is to do the right thing automatically without too much thinking involved. If he'd been through all the rigors--the years that a CHL player in Canada would have a lot of what he's going through now would not be nearly as bad. The physical dynamics that he brings to the table make him potentially a special player--he just doesn't have the hockey experience that others do.
You can tone down the language, if you'd like. Seems like we're agreeing on the premise, which is Kreider's hockey IQ is lacking and hes having a really difficult time adapting to leagues where his physical tools dont provide a massive edge.

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04-23-2013, 03:42 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You can tone down the language, if you'd like. Seems like we're agreeing on the premise, which is Kreider's hockey IQ is lacking and hes having a really difficult time adapting to leagues where his physical tools dont provide a massive edge.
The language was fine and the assessment was a rather good one.

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04-23-2013, 03:43 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
At this point, with the Whale eliminated, I'd rather have CK on the fourth line working on what he needs to work on (playing with tenacity, following through on hits, hustling for all of every shift) than have him doing nothing. Also, I suspect that he would have moved up in the lineup and gotten more minutes had he earned them with his forth line play. He's been better, but with the team in the position it's in, he would need to really assert himself to get more minutes at this point, and he just hasn't done that.
At this point, the errors have already been made, IMO. He should have stayed in CT to help with the push for the playoffs down there. Those things he needs to work on are all things he could learn with the Wolfpack (thank god I can call them that again). He doesn't need to be in the NHL to learn to forecheck, hustle, and finish his checks.

Kreider's long-term value to us is a scoring forward with size and speed. Until his recent stint in Hartford, he hadn't been scoring all that much, so in my opinion, it was more important for him to work on scoring in the AHL than it was to learn whatever he's learning in the NHL right now.

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04-23-2013, 03:56 PM
  #631
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Someone said it was a disagreeable between coach and GM. Starting to believe this.

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04-23-2013, 03:58 PM
  #632
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God damn this was a great post. That's pretty much /thread for me. There are tons of people with opinions, and then there are people like you who can intelligently analyze a situation and spell it out for the layman.

Good work, we need more of this.
::bows::

Many thanks.

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04-23-2013, 04:02 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
At this point, with the Whale eliminated, I'd rather have CK on the fourth line working on what he needs to work on (playing with tenacity, following through on hits, hustling for all of every shift) than have him doing nothing. Also, I suspect that he would have moved up in the lineup and gotten more minutes had he earned them with his forth line play. He's been better, but with the team in the position it's in, he would need to really assert himself to get more minutes at this point, and he just hasn't done that.
I hate this mentality. Absolutely hate it. It's crap in hockey. That mentality works fine in a sport like baseball, not hockey. Baseball you swing the bat yourself, no help from the teammate in front of you or behind you. You get the extra base hits and rbi's without the help of your teammate when you step into the box. You move yourself up the lineup. Hockey is a much more team oriented game with more variable player styles and roles. Yes there are different role players in baseball but not nearly as evident or many as hockey.

Kreider is not a playmaker. He is a kid who can skate with great speed and has a great shot. He needs players to get him the puck. He is on a 4th line with Powe who hasn't scored a goal or recorded an assist ALL YEAR LONG. Asham has been banged up all year and let's be honest he isn't exactly offensively gifted. It is clearly ignorant and naive to believe if Kreider was performing better he would've have earned a promotion in the lineup. Opposing teams are not stupid. They break down each line of forwards. They look at our fourth line and they zero in on Kreider. He is the only threat. He doesn't have a center like stepan, richards, brassard to get him the puck and/or open space. Of course he isn't scoring goals. Look at some of the goals he scored in the playoffs last year. Look at who was passing him the puck. Stepan on two of them. Anisimov on another one. He was on the ice with richards when he had space to rip one past Marty early in the season. The kid got demoted multiple times and yet he has come back in his last two stints with more jump in his game, more tenacity with a little nastiness. He is backchecking better. He needs better players to play with. He has his flaws. His hockey IQ is not fantastic. But not every player is a complete player. That's why you have 4 other players and a goalie on the ice.

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04-23-2013, 04:10 PM
  #634
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Oh these Kreider-lovers...

I believe most of those posters are his age or younger, and want a bunch of kids in the lineup. Experienced players like Pyatt belong in a retirement home and should be replaced by green rookies.
So unrealistic, and so full of dreams they are.

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04-23-2013, 04:15 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Oh these Kreider-lovers...

I believe most of those posters are his age or younger, and want a bunch of kids in the lineup. Experienced players like Pyatt belong in a retirement home and should be replaced by green rookies.
So unrealistic, and so full of dreams they are.
I don't get what this has to do with the price of potatoes.

In the cap world that we live in, having guys that can produce and be on an ELC are vital to teams having success.

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04-23-2013, 04:16 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Oh these Kreider-lovers...

I believe most of those posters are his age or younger, and want a bunch of kids in the lineup. Experienced players like Pyatt belong in a retirement home and should be replaced by green rookies.
So unrealistic, and so full of dreams they are.
I'm pretty much 100% sure you're wrong. I don't think anyone here cares about age, outside of contracts, so long as it doesn't appear to slow anyone down.

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04-23-2013, 04:18 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Oh these Kreider-lovers...

I believe most of those posters are his age or younger, and want a bunch of kids in the lineup. Experienced players like Pyatt belong in a retirement home and should be replaced by green rookies.
So unrealistic, and so full of dreams they are.
Yeah that's it....

All these Pyatt lovers who love watching Pyatt get beat to every dump in which pretty much makes him useless because his game is below the hash marks on the boards. His amazingly quick reactions to passes back to the point men in his own end are astounding as well. Also the $1.5-$1.7 million were paying him to chip in a goal every 30 games is also impressive. Pyatt has been awful this year. Started off great in that first week and then it all fell apart. The least he could've done this year was at least give up his big body to block a damn shot if he wasn't scoring; but then again it might take him an eternity to get back to his feet and in the play. And I don't dislike Pyatt but if you're going to take a jab at the "Kreider lover's" then you're going to get it right back.

And what green rookies? Please explain... you mean ONE green rookie? Aka Kreider? Because Miller isn't here anymore. Our apologies for letting ONE rookie play. I guess it was stupid when we let stepan play when he was a rookie, and hagelin and mcdonagh too. Right? Can't let any green rookies play.

Stupid comment.

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04-23-2013, 04:28 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
I don't get what this has to do with the price of potatoes.

In the cap world that we live in, having guys that can produce and be on an ELC are vital to teams having success.
Yes, when they are NHL-ready...or Torts-ready. Kreider isn't.

But there's a camp coming up in September, that's his chance to show if he deserves a spot...and Miller too.

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04-23-2013, 05:32 PM
  #639
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I hate this mentality. Absolutely hate it. It's crap in hockey. That mentality works fine in a sport like baseball, not hockey. Baseball you swing the bat yourself, no help from the teammate in front of you or behind you. You get the extra base hits and rbi's without the help of your teammate when you step into the box. You move yourself up the lineup. Hockey is a much more team oriented game with more variable player styles and roles. Yes there are different role players in baseball but not nearly as evident or many as hockey.

Kreider is not a playmaker. He is a kid who can skate with great speed and has a great shot. He needs players to get him the puck. He is on a 4th line with Powe who hasn't scored a goal or recorded an assist ALL YEAR LONG. Asham has been banged up all year and let's be honest he isn't exactly offensively gifted. It is clearly ignorant and naive to believe if Kreider was performing better he would've have earned a promotion in the lineup. Opposing teams are not stupid. They break down each line of forwards. They look at our fourth line and they zero in on Kreider. He is the only threat. He doesn't have a center like stepan, richards, brassard to get him the puck and/or open space. Of course he isn't scoring goals. Look at some of the goals he scored in the playoffs last year. Look at who was passing him the puck. Stepan on two of them. Anisimov on another one. He was on the ice with richards when he had space to rip one past Marty early in the season. The kid got demoted multiple times and yet he has come back in his last two stints with more jump in his game, more tenacity with a little nastiness. He is backchecking better. He needs better players to play with. He has his flaws. His hockey IQ is not fantastic. But not every player is a complete player. That's why you have 4 other players and a goalie on the ice.
Or, we just disagree and neither of us has to be dumber and more naive than the other. I'm not looking for him to score goals, I'm looking for him to use his speed and size to his advantage, and he's just barely starting to do that on the fourth line. He's faster than almost any skater on either team any given night and he's stronger than most of them, too. I make sure to watch him every time his line is out and I don't see him using those tools consistently, not to score, but to give his team an edge. Hit hard and follow through. Chase pucks quick, be the first man in on the forecheck and make it hell for the opposition. He does those things sometimes, but not with the consistency that he should.

Also, I sense some confirmation bias regarding who he was on the ice with when he scored. He has 3 points in 20 games. 3. For the one time that he sniped that shot Richards fed him, there were multiple shifts that he played with skilled playmakers and made little to no difference, didn't get good chances and certainly didn't get any points.

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04-23-2013, 05:38 PM
  #640
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It is clearly ignorant and naive to believe if Kreider was performing better he would've have earned a promotion in the lineup.
First off, I think you're completely wrong here. Secondly, I sure hope none of our younger players, especially Kreider, possess that warped sense of entitlement.

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04-23-2013, 05:40 PM
  #641
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Or, we just disagree and neither of us has to be dumber and more naive than the other. I'm not looking for him to score goals, I'm looking for him to use his speed and size to his advantage, and he's just barely starting to do that on the fourth line. He's faster than almost any skater on either team any given night and he's stronger than most of them, too. I make sure to watch him every time his line is out and I don't see him using those tools consistently, not to score, but to give his team an edge. Hit hard and follow through. Chase pucks quick, be the first man in on the forecheck and make it hell for the opposition. He does those things sometimes, but not with the consistency that he should.

Also, I sense some confirmation bias regarding who he was on the ice with when he scored. He has 3 points in 20 games. 3. For the one time that he sniped that shot Richards fed him, there were multiple shifts that he played with skilled playmakers and made little to no difference, didn't get good chances and certainly didn't get any points.
Agreed. No one is expecting him to produce offensive numbers down on the 4th line. But he at least needs to show a pulse to be worthy of bigger minutes. He hasnt for most of this season.

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04-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #642
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Yes, when they are NHL-ready...or Torts-ready. Kreider isn't.

But there's a camp coming up in September, that's his chance to show if he deserves a spot...and Miller too.
Ok but wanting a bunch of kids in the lineup and wanting un-ready rookies in the lineup are two completely different things.

I think it is vital to an organization to continuously implement young talent each and every year.

The Rangers have been very good at that. We added Moore and Brassard this year who help to further that. Adding Kreider and or Miller next year is my hope. Although with our Center depth looking pretty good, I think Miller will get another year in the A, then we buy out Richards.

As for Kreider, there really is no reason he shouldn't be in the lineup next season.

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04-23-2013, 06:13 PM
  #643
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And what green rookies? Please explain... you mean ONE green rookie? Aka Kreider? Because Miller isn't here anymore. Our apologies for letting ONE rookie play. I guess it was stupid when we let stepan play when he was a rookie, and hagelin and mcdonagh too. Right? Can't let any green rookies play.

Stupid comment.
No you made it look stupid. If you are smart enough to understand what I actually said you'll see that I was talking about a large number of rookies in the lineup, something Kreider lovers obviously want, but will never happen.

They all start as rookies, and I don't mind one or two in the lineup as long as they know how to play up here. But Kreider looks a little lost and needs more time in the minors. Stop telling me he deserves 2nd line minutes and he should replace Pyatt and blah blah. That's just ridiculous at this point.

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04-23-2013, 06:58 PM
  #644
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No you made it look stupid. If you are smart enough to understand what I actually said you'll see that I was talking about a large number of rookies in the lineup, something Kreider lovers obviously want, but will never happen.

They all start as rookies, and I don't mind one or two in the lineup as long as they know how to play up here. But Kreider looks a little lost and needs more time in the minors. Stop telling me he deserves 2nd line minutes and he should replace Pyatt and blah blah. That's just ridiculous at this point.
has anyone ever said this? you're basing that on absolutely nothing. and i dont know why you would mention pyatt, seeing how he is literally useless.

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04-23-2013, 07:13 PM
  #645
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Or, we just disagree and neither of us has to be dumber and more naive than the other. I'm not looking for him to score goals, I'm looking for him to use his speed and size to his advantage, and he's just barely starting to do that on the fourth line. He's faster than almost any skater on either team any given night and he's stronger than most of them, too. I make sure to watch him every time his line is out and I don't see him using those tools consistently, not to score, but to give his team an edge. Hit hard and follow through. Chase pucks quick, be the first man in on the forecheck and make it hell for the opposition. He does those things sometimes, but not with the consistency that he should.

Also, I sense some confirmation bias regarding who he was on the ice with when he scored. He has 3 points in 20 games. 3. For the one time that he sniped that shot Richards fed him, there were multiple shifts that he played with skilled playmakers and made little to no difference, didn't get good chances and certainly didn't get any points.
I completely agree he played poorly in the beginning of the season. He looked invisible out there, the intensity wasn't there. But I disagree that he isn't skating hard every shift, trying to use his speed. I think in his last two stints he has been skating hard every shift and definitely using his body a lot more. He squandered his opportunity here at the beginning of the season and now it has been a see-saw season for the 21 year old. However, during his last two stints he has been a helluva lot better and I think it is hard for him to get into a groove with the players he is playing with. His game did change from being sent down to the minors multiple times this year. I think because of who he is playing with he doesn't get the opportunity to have more offensive zone time, more offensive opportunities, sprung for more offensive breakouts of their own end. I don't like the expectations on this board. Just because Kreider is a big forward with speed he should play a game more like callahan; a game more to the tune of what Torts wants. You want him to change his player type to fit Tort's system. Sounds a lot like why Gaborik isn't here anymore. Not every player should have to finish their checks with authority. The kid has goal scoring potential, a lot of it. I'd love for him to worry more about putting the puck in the back of the net rather than finishing a check and "following through." We drafted him to be a goal scorer. Not Ryan Callahan. He is not Callahan.

And as much as he struggled in the beginning, so did many other players. Richards has been poor all year. The team was poor much of the year.

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First off, I think you're completely wrong here. Secondly, I sure hope none of our younger players, especially Kreider, possess that warped sense of entitlement.
BRB we all know your word is law here and anyone whoever disagrees is completely wrong. So please, at the very least explain yourself. Not to mention I NEVER said he was entitled to anything. I only suggested that given his improvements in his game from being sent down in the minors, maybe if he was playing with better players his production would be more significant. I forgot that since Crosby can make any player better, that everyone else should be able to do the same right? That Kreider should be fine playing with Powe who has zero points this year because Crosby has made a journeyman such as Dupuis look like a premier offensive talent in this league. Please get off your high horse. I played college sports, played through tears in my body, I worked for every inch because I wasn't some 6'3" physical specimen destined for the MLB even though I played against a plethora of players who are now in the minor leagues. I don't believe in any warped sense of entitlement.


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04-23-2013, 07:15 PM
  #646
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imo he should be sent back to hfd if torts is going to keep him on the 4th line

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04-23-2013, 07:17 PM
  #647
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imo he should be sent back to hfd if torts is going to keep him on the 4th line
The Whale's season is over. I'd prefer him playing some sort of hockey as opposed to hitting the golf course

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04-23-2013, 07:19 PM
  #648
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No you made it look stupid. If you are smart enough to understand what I actually said you'll see that I was talking about a large number of rookies in the lineup, something Kreider lovers obviously want, but will never happen.

They all start as rookies, and I don't mind one or two in the lineup as long as they know how to play up here. But Kreider looks a little lost and needs more time in the minors. Stop telling me he deserves 2nd line minutes and he should replace Pyatt and blah blah. That's just ridiculous at this point.
Actually, no no....you did not say that at all. You said nothing about a large number of rookies and if that is what you ACTUALLY meant then you should have ACTUALLY SAID IT. Sorry we're not "smart enough" to interpret what you are saying into meaning something completely different.

But now that you have translated your original thought for us; no one here is advocating for a large number of rookies. This is too comical. Where would they play? We have one rookie in the lineup. He is on the 4th line. Just shaking my head.

Who said 2nd line minutes? With the center depth the rangers have right now, the 3rd line would be fine for periods 1 and 2. In tight games you put him on the 4th line in the 3rd period...kindaaaa like how Torts did just that in the playoffs last year. And you know when Kreider's goals were scored? In the 1st and 2nd periods. Imagine that, right? Crazy stuff.

There's nothing ridiculous about benching Pyatt who has been a shell of his former self and a weak spot all season for this team. I liked the signing when it happened. Liked his size a lot. But man has his skating killed him. He can't get in on the forecheck to win pucks so he can use his size. He can't get to players to finish checks because the play is already gone. He finally scored sunday and thank god considering Richards set him up alone in between the circles. But you're right it's all just "blah blah" because you don't want to hear the truth.
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has anyone ever said this? you're basing that on absolutely nothing. and i dont know why you would mention pyatt, seeing how he is literally useless.
Thank you.

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04-23-2013, 07:38 PM
  #649
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Oh these Kreider-lovers...

I believe most of those posters are his age or younger, and want a bunch of kids in the lineup. Experienced players like Pyatt belong in a retirement home and should be replaced by green rookies.
So unrealistic, and so full of dreams they are.
Wow way to generalize man!

I'm much younger than Kreider and I think he should be nowhere near a NHL roster.

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04-24-2013, 07:53 AM
  #650
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I've given up all my expectations on Kreider. It will only end in heartbreak. Hopefully next year is better I guess...

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