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04-23-2013, 03:39 PM
  #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
#1 d-men aren't exactly moved everyday. That's why.

Similar picks that have been moved lately.

8th overall, Sutter, Dumolin for Staal.

8th overall Voracek, 3rd for Carter

9th overall, 1st(Seguin) for Kessel


That pick in itself is no where close to getting a #1 d-man unless it somehow becomes the 1st overall pick or we end up drafting in the top 5.
lets say for arguments sake that we draft 6th overall, as that is where we are right now... this years draft is very good at the top end, specifically in the top-8... so the fact that the pick is a few spots better and the draft being good, would mean our 1st has more value than those listed above

that being said, i agree that it alone won't get you a legit top-pairing dman... if we packaged something else with it, say hemsky + anaheims 2nd rounder, we could be in the ballpark of what some teams would be looking for in return for a 25 minute/game dman

if we're looking for a legit #2 big, centre, we could do the 1st rounder + gagner in a deal.... but it would have to be somebody pretty good coming back, similar to the staal or carter deals

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04-23-2013, 03:42 PM
  #552
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Everyone and their dog had Pitlick as the best pick at #31... he was a faller from a sure 1st rounder but I distinctly remember the conversations after the first round was completed... by media and even some scouts... and they felt Pitlick was the obvious best player left on the board at that point.

You can argue they should have been able to see that Pitlick wasn't going to develop and turn out well... but that's 20-20 hindsight stuff when he was the consensus pick at that point. I have no problem with the Pitlick pick even if he busts.. and it's trending that way but who knows, he could still turn the corner.

Moroz on the other hand... retarded pick that early and everyone and their dog knew it. No excuses on that one.

2010 Marincin/Martindale/Hamilton... the dman is looking good... forwards... not so much. If they get one legit NHL player out of those though... that's probably a success. It's not as if 2nd/3rd rounders are guarantees.

2011 Musil/Perhonen/Ewanyk... still early but Musil looks "safe".. and could be a solid bottom pairing dman... maybe better. Ewanyk and Perhonen... who knows... goalies take forever and defensive forwards obviously can't be judged solely on stat lines. Even if just Musil works out... that's decent.

edit to add... I REALLY wanted the Oilers to pick Kucherov with their 2nd rounder in 2011... they chose to go safe with Musil though and I understand why... but I wanted that elite skill that Kucherov showed. So if it was up to me they'd have yet another small skilled forward and one less stay at home solid dman.


2012 Zharkov/Khaira... obviously way too early to tell. I would definitely have taken Zhairkov there though... in fact I'd have taken him with the Khaira pick so no way I can complain about him even if he busts. Khaira... didn't know enough about him but I think it was a decent long shot bet... looks to have size and skill and once you get into 60+ territory the odds get a lot longer anyway. I don't have a problem with that pick either.

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04-23-2013, 03:47 PM
  #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The only service which ranked him number 1, a ranking which was given before the 2nd round of the OHL playoffs even started(march/april), which was before Hall fully separated himself as the superior choice with his dominant playoffs/memorial cup.

The head CS guy actually did an interview right after the list came out, he stated Seguin was number 1 on their list because they were looking at the needs of the teams that would be selecting that high, and Edmonton really needed a "big, right handed center".

Otherwise it was a consensus that Hall was the best player in the draft, with Seguin having the potential to maybe be a better player down the road.
6'1 is big? Isn't that average?

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04-23-2013, 03:50 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
6'1 is big? Isn't that average?
That was one of the many old, illogical arguments from that draft's debate

Yeah, Seguin isn't big, and he most certainly doesn't play big.

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04-23-2013, 03:50 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
lets say for arguments sake that we draft 6th overall, as that is where we are right now... this years draft is very good at the top end, specifically in the top-8... so the fact that the pick is a few spots better and the draft being good, would mean our 1st has more value than those listed above

that being said, i agree that it alone won't get you a legit top-pairing dman... if we packaged something else with it, say hemsky + anaheims 2nd rounder, we could be in the ballpark of what some teams would be looking for in return for a 25 minute/game dman

if we're looking for a legit #2 big, centre, we could do the 1st rounder + gagner in a deal.... but it would have to be somebody pretty good coming back, similar to the staal or carter deals
Every draft has a good top 8 it seems now.

With that being said 1st+Gagner is a real decent package. I don't think Hemksy has much value if anything it's probably negative, because if a team is moving a top pairing d-man it's because of salary issues.

The fact of the matter is we have a lot of assets and I do think we have enough to make a package for a real good d-man and someone to replace Gagner. Would be two seperate deals, but there is no reason something couldn't be worked out.

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04-23-2013, 03:53 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
6'1 is big? Isn't that average?
Yep... 824 skaters in the NHL this season and the median height is 6'1". The median weight is 203 lbs.

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04-23-2013, 03:59 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Everyone and their dog had Pitlick as the best pick at #31... he was a faller from a sure 1st rounder but I distinctly remember the conversations after the first round was completed... by media and even some scouts... and they felt Pitlick was the obvious best player left on the board at that point.

You can argue they should have been able to see that Pitlick wasn't going to develop and turn out well... but that's 20-20 hindsight stuff when he was the consensus pick at that point. I have no problem with the Pitlick pick even if he busts.. and it's trending that way but who knows, he could still turn the corner.

Moroz on the other hand... retarded pick that early and everyone and their dog knew it. No excuses on that one.

2010 Marincin/Martindale/Hamilton... the dman is looking good... forwards... not so much. If they get one legit NHL player out of those though... that's probably a success. It's not as if 2nd/3rd rounders are guarantees.

2011 Musil/Perhonen/Ewanyk... still early but Musil looks "safe".. and could be a solid bottom pairing dman... maybe better. Ewanyk and Perhonen... who knows... goalies take forever and defensive forwards obviously can't be judged solely on stat lines. Even if just Musil works out... that's decent.

edit to add... I REALLY wanted the Oilers to pick Kucherov with their 2nd rounder in 2011... they chose to go safe with Musil though and I understand why... but I wanted that elite skill that Kucherov showed. So if it was up to me they'd have yet another small skilled forward and one less stay at home solid dman.


2012 Zharkov/Khaira... obviously way too early to tell. I would definitely have taken Zhairkov there though... in fact I'd have taken him with the Khaira pick so no way I can complain about him even if he busts. Khaira... didn't know enough about him but I think it was a decent long shot bet... looks to have size and skill and once you get into 60+ territory the odds get a lot longer anyway. I don't have a problem with that pick either.
That's really sad when a guy like Scott Hannan floats around year after year for dirt cheap. Cannot be drafting guys because they are safe picks to be bottom pairing d-men. Especially in the 2nd round.

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04-23-2013, 04:00 PM
  #558
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04-23-2013, 04:11 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Every draft has a good top 8 it seems now.

With that being said 1st+Gagner is a real decent package. I don't think Hemksy has much value if anything it's probably negative, because if a team is moving a top pairing d-man it's because of salary issues.

The fact of the matter is we have a lot of assets and I do think we have enough to make a package for a real good d-man and someone to replace Gagner. Would be two seperate deals, but there is no reason something couldn't be worked out.
people have mentioned hemsky's salary as a negative a few times... this is easily fixed by having us absorb some of his salary in the trade... we aren't up against the cap next season, so we could easily keep 1.5 or so if need be.... hemsky at 3.5 is a player a lot of teams would be interested in

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04-23-2013, 04:19 PM
  #560
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Speaking of players better off not on this team, Eric Belanger. He's been dreadful and brings almost as big of bag of quit as POS on a nightly basis. However, unlike POS, he's a veteran and he can win faceoffs. He's also cheaper then his cap hit next year, so maybe a team like Phoenix would be interested?

At the Draft

To PHX: Eric Belanger

To EDM: 6th Round Pick

yay, nay?

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04-23-2013, 04:20 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
The only service which ranked him number 1, a ranking which was given before the 2nd round of the OHL playoffs even started(march/april), which was before Hall fully separated himself as the superior choice with his dominant playoffs/memorial cup.

The head CS guy actually did an interview right after the list came out, he stated Seguin was number 1 on their list because they were looking at the needs of the teams that would be selecting that high, and Edmonton really needed a "big, right handed center".

Otherwise it was a consensus that Hall was the best player in the draft, with Seguin having the potential to maybe be a better player down the road.
That part of scouting is way more important than who is better now.

And I recall that position was a separator, but in no way was it directed towards Edmonton. They released the list a few days before the draft lottery even happened. Central Scouting does not project their rankings based on team needs. Their focus is to provide a ranking of players that all teams can use as a resource to where these scouts believe these players are ranked.

The fact is simple. In 2010 and 2012, there were big choices to make. In 2010 many thought we'd take Seguin, and this summer, many thought we were going after Murray.

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04-23-2013, 04:21 PM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Speaking of players better off not on this team, Eric Belanger. He's been dreadful and brings almost as big of bag of quit as POS on a nightly basis. However, unlike POS, he's a veteran and he can win faceoffs. He's also cheaper then his cap hit next year, so maybe a team like Phoenix would be interested?

At the Draft

To PHX: Eric Belanger

To EDM: 6th Round Pick

yay, nay?
What is our record with him in the line up?

I think we'd have to give a 6th so they would take him. Probably a 4th too.

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Old
04-23-2013, 04:22 PM
  #563
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What is our record with him in the line up?
I think we'd have to give a 6th so they would take him. Probably a 4th too.
lol, so he has a large impact now?

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04-23-2013, 04:24 PM
  #564
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lol, so he has a large impact now?
Well I suppose in the sense of a blackhole.

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04-23-2013, 04:24 PM
  #565
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To PHX: Belanger

To Edmonton: 9th round pick

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04-23-2013, 04:26 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
people have mentioned hemsky's salary as a negative a few times... this is easily fixed by having us absorb some of his salary in the trade... we aren't up against the cap next season, so we could easily keep 1.5 or so if need be.... hemsky at 3.5 is a player a lot of teams would be interested in
Maybe, can't see him being a high priority for teams with all the amnesty buyouts that could add better players. Injury is not helping him at all.

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04-23-2013, 04:28 PM
  #567
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Originally Posted by Jimmi Jenkins View Post
Speaking of players better off not on this team, Eric Belanger. He's been dreadful and brings almost as big of bag of quit as POS on a nightly basis. However, unlike POS, he's a veteran and he can win faceoffs. He's also cheaper then his cap hit next year, so maybe a team like Phoenix would be interested?

At the Draft

To PHX: Eric Belanger

To EDM: 6th Round Pick

yay, nay?
I think to move him you have to take a bad contract back. Maybe not bad, just unwanted. Could be a throw in as well somewhere.

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04-23-2013, 04:33 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I think to move him you have to take a bad contract back. Maybe not bad, just unwanted. Could be a throw in as well somewhere.
I was thinking that as well, just didn't know who qualified from PHX for that "honor"

Probably one of Justin Weller or Jordan Szwarz would qualify.

I also figured the Yotes might be interested as Chipchura and Gordon are both UFA this summer

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04-23-2013, 04:45 PM
  #569
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Gagner, Petry, Hemsky (1/2 salary), Klefbom, 2013 1st

For

Backes and Pietrangelo

Maybe the proposal is offbase but I wonder what the value of Backes would be alone and Pie alone (and together).

Would Blues trade Backes for 2013 1st rd pick if the pick is top 6?

Would Gags, Hemsky (1/2 salary), Petry and Klefbom be enough for Pie?

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04-23-2013, 04:46 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
That's really sad when a guy like Scott Hannan floats around year after year for dirt cheap. Cannot be drafting guys because they are safe picks to be bottom pairing d-men. Especially in the 2nd round.
THANK YOU. I couldn't agree more. With drafting, I would go for the boom-bust prospects nearly every time when you get past the first round or 2. "Safe players" can be signed in free agency for a dime a dozen.

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04-23-2013, 04:54 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by notloilersfan View Post
That part of scouting is way more important than who is better now.

And I recall that position was a separator, but in no way was it directed towards Edmonton. They released the list a few days before the draft lottery even happened. Central Scouting does not project their rankings based on team needs. Their focus is to provide a ranking of players that all teams can use as a resource to where these scouts believe these players are ranked.

The fact is simple. In 2010 and 2012, there were big choices to make. In 2010 many thought we'd take Seguin, and this summer, many thought we were going after Murray.
Sure, if Hall ran in place and Seguin kept his then spectacular development curve, but it doesn't really work like that. Hall was the better player then, and he's maintained that lead throughout his career as both have developed.

Also, the end of the year CS list is basically a fluff piece. NHL teams use that service early in the year to track some prospects, but by the end of the year they have their own lists and don't worry about what the CS is putting out. So Central Scouting does in fact sit around and speculate on how they would build teams, and what they think teams need in around that selection.

Here's an actual quote from an article talking about it -

Quote:
In the end E.J McGuire said they chose centre over left wing.

"It basically came down to the old aspect of building your team up the middle. Hall is exciting and he's a game-breaker. He has a lot of flash. He drives to the net and he can finish. But we chose the right shot centre around whom you could build your team," he said.

In an official statement made in conjunction with the list of top North American skaters in a draft which is expected to be dominated by North American players, McGuire put it another way.

"They're equal. But we can't sit on the fence. We went with the right shot centre."
And that was the deciding factor before Hall went on his dominant playoff run.

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04-23-2013, 04:56 PM
  #572
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THANK YOU. I couldn't agree more. With drafting, I would go for the boom-bust prospects nearly every time when you get past the first round or 2. "Safe players" can be signed in free agency for a dime a dozen.
always draft BPA with the highest potential, it should be tatto'd on every scouts arm.

top side datsyuk bottom side omark (Y)
Top side corey sarich bottom side corey potter (N)

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04-23-2013, 04:57 PM
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
Gagner, Petry, Hemsky (1/2 salary), Klefbom, 2013 1st

For

Backes and Pietrangelo

Maybe the proposal is offbase but I wonder what the value of Backes would be alone and Pie alone (and together).

Would Blues trade Backes for 2013 1st rd pick if the pick is top 6?

Would Gags, Hemsky (1/2 salary), Petry and Klefbom be enough for Pie?
nope

Pietrangelo is one of the best D-men in the league now and to get him it will cost one of Hall, Yakupov, Eberle or Nuge

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04-23-2013, 04:58 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Sure, if Hall ran in place and Seguin kept his then spectacular development curve, but it doesn't really work like that. Hall was the better player then, and he's maintained that lead throughout his career as both have developed.

Also, the end of the year CS list is basically a fluff piece. NHL teams use that service early in the year to track some prospects, but by the end of the year they have their own lists and don't worry about what the CS is putting out. So Central Scouting does in fact sit around and speculate on how they would build teams, and what they think teams need in around that selection.

Here's an actual quote from an article talking about it -



And that was the deciding factor before Hall went on his dominant playoff run.

basically they picked Seguin so people would talk about their list because EVERYONE else knew Taylor Hall was the better hockey player and still is and most likely always will be. the oilers have taken BPA 1st overall and didnt screw it up.

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04-23-2013, 04:58 PM
  #575
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Can't see anyone taking Belanger with his full contract. Our best hope would be to retain the maximum allowed and give him to phoenix for future considerations.

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