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Hockey in Britain part 3

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04-18-2013, 12:01 PM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
I wouldn't say the "win now" thinking trickles down to the EPL (we just say EPL because it's easier), all clubs except Guildford make the effort to develop junior players and give them a chance. But it certainly adversely affects the league as the lack of decent British goalies in the EIHL causes a surplus of EPL level goalies and there's a lack of space and opportunity for young promising goalies further down the ladder to develop properly. As explained previously Ben Bowns was in the right setup to do it, he just happened to be from Sheffield.

The reason the teams are all in "win now" mode is because this isn't the NHL or Canadian junior hockey and the teams don't have thousands of die hard fans who would continue to show up to games even if they're in the draft lottery year after year. The UK is the capital of fair weather sports fans and unless teams are winning the fans aren't going to show up. During their losing years the teams might develop a few good players but because of their small fanbase they won't be able to afford to keep them long enough to see the benefits as one of the bigger teams will just offer them a better deal, so there's not really any incentive.
See I use Canadian examples because I know about Canadian examples - Canadian junior fans don't turn out for teams who suck in junior (especially not in the thousands - and some winning teams don't get fans) which is why so many teams fold/move in the CHL. The teams that fail fastest are the ones who sell their futures to try to win now when they're not ready.

The most successful teams in junior are able to develop future players while competing. They might not be Memorial Cup contenders every year but they don't drop to last place (usually in the 5-10 win range over 68+ games). No different with NHL teams, Swedish teams, Finish teams. The best teams always know how to find a balance between winning & developing.


I have a feeling you'll respond with, this isn't Canada, even though you brought it up The way most teams are run in GB isn't the best it could be, there's plenty of room for improvement (same can be said for a lot of programs around the world, including in Canada). With that said, player development has improved significantly in GB the last 15 or so years, an example being the national teams roster being all Brits and being ranked higher then when they had the help of dual nationals.

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04-18-2013, 12:36 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
See I use Canadian examples because I know about Canadian examples - Canadian junior fans don't turn out for teams who suck in junior (especially not in the thousands - and some winning teams don't get fans) which is why so many teams fold/move in the CHL. The teams that fail fastest are the ones who sell their futures to try to win now when they're not ready.

The most successful teams in junior are able to develop future players while competing. They might not be Memorial Cup contenders every year but they don't drop to last place (usually in the 5-10 win range over 68+ games). No different with NHL teams, Swedish teams, Finish teams. The best teams always know how to find a balance between winning & developing.


I have a feeling you'll respond with, this isn't Canada, even though you brought it up The way most teams are run in GB isn't the best it could be, there's plenty of room for improvement (same can be said for a lot of programs around the world, including in Canada). With that said, player development has improved significantly in GB the last 15 or so years, an example being the national teams roster being all Brits and being ranked higher then when they had the help of dual nationals.
Yeah but would I be wrong in saying that the Quebec Remparts would still get massive attendances even if they were losing, while there is still no NHL team in Quebec City? Obviously it doesn't apply to all of them, just the big markets.

I'm only bringing up Canada to illustrate why it is different, in places like Quebec City there aren't really any other major pro sporting alternatives to hockey that people are interested in are there? While in Nottingham if the Panthers somehow started finishing in the bottom half of the league and Nottingham Forest are doing well in the football no doubt the hockey attendances would plummet.

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04-18-2013, 01:36 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Yeah but would I be wrong in saying that the Quebec Remparts would still get massive attendances even if they were losing, while there is still no NHL team in Quebec City? Obviously it doesn't apply to all of them, just the big markets.

I'm only bringing up Canada to illustrate why it is different, in places like Quebec City there aren't really any other major pro sporting alternatives to hockey that people are interested in are there? While in Nottingham if the Panthers somehow started finishing in the bottom half of the league and Nottingham Forest are doing well in the football no doubt the hockey attendances would plummet.
Quebec has never been bad enough so I don't know exactly they only had 2 seasons under 30 wins which is still not near worst in the Q.

Having an owner in the Hockey Hall of Fame, multiple cup rings, and a personality like Patrick Roy isn't exactly a liability either He's able to recruit a lot of Americans or Canadians with NCAA aspirations because he can guarantee players will compete for a title & develop at the same time.

Quebec is unlike any other team in the QMJHL. It's the only team in an NHL sized market (montreal teams have been folding in recent years), the only one with a household hockey name like Patrick Roy, the only one with pockets deep enough to recruit the way they, etc.


The EIHL seems as more stable financially then any other UK based hockey league... ever
Only what, 4 teams have ever folded in 10 years? and 3 new teams joined in the last 3 years? Doesn't seem like folding is as inevitable as it was in past leagues.

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04-18-2013, 01:55 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
Quebec has never been bad enough so I don't know exactly they only had 2 seasons under 30 wins which is still not near worst in the Q.

Having an owner in the Hockey Hall of Fame, multiple cup rings, and a personality like Patrick Roy isn't exactly a liability either He's able to recruit a lot of Americans or Canadians with NCAA aspirations because he can guarantee players will compete for a title & develop at the same time.

Quebec is unlike any other team in the QMJHL. It's the only team in an NHL sized market (montreal teams have been folding in recent years), the only one with a household hockey name like Patrick Roy, the only one with pockets deep enough to recruit the way they, etc.


The EIHL seems as more stable financially then any other UK based hockey league... ever
Only what, 4 teams have ever folded in 10 years? and 3 new teams joined in the last 3 years? Doesn't seem like folding is as inevitable as it was in past leagues.
Since the inception of the EIHL, 2 teams have completely folded (London + Newcastle) and 2 dropped down. (Basingstoke + Manchester)

But just because teams haven't folded it doesn't mean it's financially stable. Hull came very close to vanishing a couple of years ago until they were bailed out by Coventry. Edinburgh also had that really bad season where they couldn't pay their players and most of them left.

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04-18-2013, 02:18 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Since the inception of the EIHL, 2 teams have completely folded (London + Newcastle) and 2 dropped down. (Basingstoke + Manchester)

But just because teams haven't folded it doesn't mean it's financially stable. Hull came very close to vanishing a couple of years ago until they were bailed out by Coventry. Edinburgh also had that really bad season where they couldn't pay their players and most of them left.
Edinburgh was always my team when I played Eastside Hockey Manager back in high school

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04-18-2013, 09:11 PM
  #231
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Some news about the new Widnes hockey programme posted on THF

Quote:
With the opening of the new Silver Blades ice rink in Widnes has come the opportunity to launch a new ice programme aimed to attract existing players and coaches but more importantly to attract new people of all ages into ice hockey.
Initially it is planned to enter a senior team into the NIHL North 2nd Division from September 2013 and Michael Caunce, previously of the Flyde Flyers, has been appointed as General Manager for the new team and to oversee the establishment of the junior programme.

Additionally Mark Gillingham has been appointed Head Coach for the junior programme. Mark is one of the few EIHA Level 3 qualified coaches in country and brings with him over 20 years’ experience in ice hockey.

Speaking about the opportunity ahead, Mr Caunce said,

“It is the opportunity of a lifetime to be asked to launch a full hockey programme at a brand new rink. The facilities at Widnes are first class and the programme has the full support of the Silver Blades organisation. Senior players will be fully supported without the need to pay to play and there is a real ambition to develop a successful, sustainable programme that will contribute to player development as well as providing role models for the junior players”.

Head Coach Mark Gillingham added;

“As part of the rinks development a full hockey programme was designed by some of the country’s leading sports specialists and I am honoured to be asked to oversee the implementation of this programme. We will provide pathways into ice hockey for all levels of the local community as soon as we have suitable player numbers we will enter teams into the relevant leagues. In addition we will look to assist the Manchester Phoenix Women’s and Sledge Hockey programmes that are based at the Widnes rink through identifying and developing players for their programmes”.

A comprehensive learn ice hockey programme will provide a solid foundation supported by a strong learn to skate programme. Additionally Sport England has provided funding to provide free learn to skate courses for 14 – 25 year olds to help introduce new people into the sport.

The team name and logo will be decided by pupils from local schools and there will be a strong marketing campaign launched over the next few months to attract players and fans to ice hockey.
Good to see Sport England actually getting involved too! I guess some of the angry tweets sent to them earlier this year (including some from myself and hockey higher-ups such as Paul Thompson) actually got a message across to them

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04-22-2013, 10:01 AM
  #232
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This thread from here on out?

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04-22-2013, 10:11 AM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
This thread from here on out?
We can keep the national-team-specific stuff in the other thread for a while until the discussion dies out. This thread is mostly stuff about rinks, junior development, and the whole league system in general.

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04-22-2013, 10:20 AM
  #234
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who's Gareth Chalmers?

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04-22-2013, 10:25 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
who's Gareth Chalmers?
This guy?

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=2582

No idea, never heard of him

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04-22-2013, 10:26 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
This guy?

http://www.eliteprospects.com/staff.php?staff=2582

No idea, never heard of him
I was thinking more along the lines of this guy:

http://www.9management.co.uk/contacts.html

never knew there was a sports agency devoted to hockey in GB

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04-22-2013, 10:33 AM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of this guy:

http://www.9management.co.uk/contacts.html

never knew there was a sports agency devoted to hockey in GB
ah yes that company has a lot of clients in GB hockey, it's not really devoted to GB, but mostly 2nd tier European leagues

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04-22-2013, 06:09 PM
  #238
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One man's ramblings about the state of British hockey and it's actually not a bad read though there are a few issues he hasn't addressed

http://onepuckshort.wordpress.com/20...ken-blog-post/

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04-22-2013, 06:24 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
One man's ramblings about the state of British hockey and it's actually not a bad read though there are a few issues he hasn't addressed

http://onepuckshort.wordpress.com/20...ken-blog-post/
about to dig in. He mentioned "short term" early on so he grabbed my interest

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04-23-2013, 01:49 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
While in Nottingham if the Panthers somehow started finishing in the bottom half of the league and Nottingham Forest are doing well in the football no doubt the hockey attendances would plummet.
I seriously doubt they would plummet. Nottingham Panthers have consistently had good attendences regardless of how either they or Nottingham Forest have been doing.

Panthers financial sucess, a rarity in British hockey, is largely as a result of the faithfulness of it's fans to turn out win or lose. This is because generally Panthers fans are hockey fans first and foremost, not just 'Nottingham fans'.

The fickleness of other fanbases though is definitely an issue, its just you probably picked the only exception to the rule as your example. A better example would probably have been Sheffield Steelers, a team who even lose fans off the back of a winning season!

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04-24-2013, 07:02 AM
  #241
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was browsing the junior league stats and some kid in U12 North 1 from Bradford called Kieran Brown has 141 goals in 15 games

He also lead the U14 league in scoring with 50 goals and 75 points in 17 games.


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04-24-2013, 07:30 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
was browsing the junior league stats and some kid in U12 North 1 from Bradford called Kieran Brown has 141 goals in 15 games

He also lead the U14 league in scoring with 50 goals and 75 points in 17 games.


http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=233990

Do you remember ever seeing stats like that in GB junior?

2011-12
Bradford U12 16gp 124G 6A 130PTS
Bradford U14 15GP 22G 11A 33PTS
Bradford U16 16GP 1G 1A 2PTS

2010-11
Bradford U12 16GP 84G 27A 111PTS
Bradford U14 17GP 11G 9A 20PTS

2009-10
Bradford U12 13GP 78G 24A 102PTS (division 2)
Bradford U14 16GP 1G 0A 1PTS

2008-09
Bradford U12 16GP 31G 9A 40PTS (division 2)

2007-08
Bradford U12 13GP 6G 9A 15PTS(division 2)

2006-07
Bradford U12 5GP 0G 0A 0PTS(division 2)


So he's been playing U12 since he was 4 or 5?????


Last edited by Scarecrow Boat: 04-24-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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04-24-2013, 07:53 AM
  #243
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I remember Adam Harding scoring 104 points in U14 once, but that's it, those are ridiculous numbers

Even Brendan Perlini didn't score 100 points in U12

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04-24-2013, 07:55 AM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
was browsing the junior league stats and some kid in U12 North 1 from Bradford called Kieran Brown has 141 goals in 15 games

He also lead the U14 league in scoring with 50 goals and 75 points in 17 games.
Lol get that kid on a plane to Canada right now.

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04-24-2013, 07:59 AM
  #245
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I also found some stats for William Attwell, 1 game played 1 goal for Swindon U12's in 05/06

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04-24-2013, 08:01 AM
  #246
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Lol get that kid on a plane to Canada right now.
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.u...in_the_making/

Looks like he has hockey knowledgeable parents so as long as they're getting him on the ice he'll be fine there for now. Looks like one of those rare cases where I can say this kids parents know best

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04-24-2013, 08:03 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
I also found some stats for William Attwell, 1 game played 1 goal for Swindon U12's in 05/06
Ye I found some stats for him with Milton Keynes U12 in 07-08 -> 2GP 5G 2A 7PTS

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04-24-2013, 08:40 AM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Tilander View Post
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.u...in_the_making/

Looks like he has hockey knowledgeable parents so as long as they're getting him on the ice he'll be fine there for now. Looks like one of those rare cases where I can say this kids parents know best
To be fair lots of parents are coaches and managers

though it is good to see he has parents who actually care


Last edited by Propane Nightmares: 04-24-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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04-24-2013, 09:05 AM
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
To be fair lots of parents are coaches and managers

though it is good to see he has parents who actually care
I meant more because they've got him to this point by getting him on the ice from a young age & helping him with hockey related training

Definitely a new name to listen for in the future and hopefully he's given every opportunity to get better

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04-24-2013, 09:18 AM
  #250
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he would be a perfect player to send to OHA

There's another kid playing U12 for Guildford called Mason Biddulph with 112 points in 15 games


Last edited by Propane Nightmares: 04-24-2013 at 09:24 AM.
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