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All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part III

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Old
04-23-2013, 10:44 PM
  #701
trilobyte
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Originally Posted by NashtyAttack View Post
Yeah, Torts is the only coach to ever pull the goalie on a PP. It's all his fault we lost. Blah blah blah.....

Just summed up the next 10 hours of discussion in this thread.
Come on, does it ever work?
Answer: No, it does not work.

Adding another player to a special teams squadron that is already struggling, does not make them incrementally better. I've seen it, I thought everybody would know this.

Guard the net.

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04-23-2013, 10:44 PM
  #702
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I've said it before but we should essentially WANT the defense to be a problem. We should be trying to get into track meets with the opposition. Playing a defense first strategy when you have the best goalie in the league is just helping out a guy who doesn't need help in expense of our offense. If we played a game where (going extreme) it was 2 on 1's and 3 on 2's back and forth we would have a huge edge on almost everyone entirely because of Lundqvist. Clamping down and preventing shots from getting to him just wastes having him while simultaneously hindering offense.



Additionally stop complaining about pulling the goalie on the powerplay. It's the right move. Always has been. Always will be. There have been plenty of articles with actual proof/mathematical models based on real data written on the subject and the result is coaches are BY FAR too conservative. You can look them up on google easily if you want but not matter what you say actual proof/data supports pulling the goalie earlier and on PP chances like that and your "But it never works!" is nothing but the reaction of a fan after a time where it actually did not work.

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04-23-2013, 11:23 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
I've said it before but we should essentially WANT the defense to be a problem. We should be trying to get into track meets with the opposition. Playing a defense first strategy when you have the best goalie in the league is just helping out a guy who doesn't need help in expense of our offense. If we played a game where (going extreme) it was 2 on 1's and 3 on 2's back and forth we would have a huge edge on almost everyone entirely because of Lundqvist. Clamping down and preventing shots from getting to him just wastes having him while simultaneously hindering offense.



Additionally stop complaining about pulling the goalie on the powerplay. It's the right move. Always has been. Always will be. There have been plenty of articles with actual proof/mathematical models based on real data written on the subject and the result is coaches are BY FAR too conservative. You can look them up on google easily if you want but not matter what you say actual proof/data supports pulling the goalie earlier and on PP chances like that and your "But it never works!" is nothing but the reaction of a fan after a time where it actually did not work.
Beg to differ. Does not work for this Rangers team.
No need for you to explain my 'fan reaction', thanks anyway.

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04-23-2013, 11:33 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by NashtyAttack View Post
Yeah, Torts is the only coach to ever pull the goalie on a PP. It's all his fault we lost. Blah blah blah.....

Just summed up the next 10 hours of discussion in this thread.
That and Torts convincing Richards to take that penalty in the third...

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04-23-2013, 11:51 PM
  #705
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if we somehow miss the playoffs this year he should get fired. he won't be, but i think he will be on the hot seat for sure.

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04-24-2013, 12:49 AM
  #706
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I've defended Torts, within reason, all season long. I stand by all of what i said.

After that Empty-net short-handed goal, I was calling for his head. you want to do that 10 seconds before the penalty ends so that your 6th skater gets there in time to begin the advantage, and the opposing team doesn't get to shoot at an empty net without the threat of icing.

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04-24-2013, 01:46 AM
  #707
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Yeah, those 2 goals we gave up (not counting the EN) really prove this team's D strategy sucks.
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Last year the team was 3rd in GA/G with 2.22.

This year they're in 4th with 2.28 GA/G.
Please, spare me. It should've been 3 goals (not counting the empty net), possibly more. Lundqvist bailed them out, just as he has bailed them out time and time and time again. It is a constant defense of Tortorella here with you two, especially Kel. He can do no wrong. Pull up the stats all you want, if you put a Dan Ellis in net those numbers are significantly higher. Watch the damn game please. The Rangers get pinned in their own end so often. The majority of times it is because their wingers are way too loose on the point men. The puck constantly gets cycled around the end boards and they constantly are chasing it. How many times has Nash gone down to block a shot this year? How about Powe, other than tonight where he finally went down and sacrificed the body. Or Pyatt? These guys are not Fedotenko, Prust, Mitchell, and Dubinsky. New players came in who don't play that shot blocking game and Torts never adjusted to them. The constant pinning in their own end has them struggling to transition to offense and breaking out of the zone.

I did say Torts was not the only one to blame tonight. Nash and Richards are the other culprits. It was Nash's turnover that led to the 1st goal. As usual trying to do too much with the puck and turning it over, rather than using his 4 teammates on the ice. It was Richards dumb penalty when he had Stralman back that led to the PP goal. It was Richards and Nash who did nothing on the PP tonight. They weren't even getting shots.

So I blame both sides of it. But to be that naive and not see what has been going on all year with their defensive strategy is unfortunate. And to bring up the GAA just hides the inadequacies. Henrik is a dominating factor in the GAA, not Torts' system, at least not this year.

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04-24-2013, 01:49 AM
  #708
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
I've said it before but we should essentially WANT the defense to be a problem. We should be trying to get into track meets with the opposition. Playing a defense first strategy when you have the best goalie in the league is just helping out a guy who doesn't need help in expense of our offense. If we played a game where (going extreme) it was 2 on 1's and 3 on 2's back and forth we would have a huge edge on almost everyone entirely because of Lundqvist. Clamping down and preventing shots from getting to him just wastes having him while simultaneously hindering offense.



Additionally stop complaining about pulling the goalie on the powerplay. It's the right move. Always has been. Always will be. There have been plenty of articles with actual proof/mathematical models based on real data written on the subject and the result is coaches are BY FAR too conservative. You can look them up on google easily if you want but not matter what you say actual proof/data supports pulling the goalie earlier and on PP chances like that and your "But it never works!" is nothing but the reaction of a fan after a time where it actually did not work.
SA, I think part of the problem is that we play a defensive minded style but sucks defensively. I mean your post is an eeyeopener, we give up those odd man rushes all the time.

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Old
04-24-2013, 02:15 AM
  #709
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Meh. I know this thread is extremely reactionary and usually only active following losses, but nothing about this game really yelled, "Tort's Fault" to me.

We took a bunch of mediocre shots and just didn't score. Sucks, but it happens.

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Old
04-24-2013, 02:35 AM
  #710
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Please, spare me. It should've been 3 goals (not counting the empty net), possibly more. Lundqvist bailed them out, just as he has bailed them out time and time and time again. It is a constant defense of Tortorella here with you two, especially Kel. He can do no wrong. Pull up the stats all you want, if you put a Dan Ellis in net those numbers are significantly higher. Watch the damn game please. The Rangers get pinned in their own end so often. The majority of times it is because their wingers are way too loose on the point men. The puck constantly gets cycled around the end boards and they constantly are chasing it. How many times has Nash gone down to block a shot this year? How about Powe, other than tonight where he finally went down and sacrificed the body. Or Pyatt? These guys are not Fedotenko, Prust, Mitchell, and Dubinsky. New players came in who don't play that shot blocking game and Torts never adjusted to them. The constant pinning in their own end has them struggling to transition to offense and breaking out of the zone.

I did say Torts was not the only one to blame tonight. Nash and Richards are the other culprits. It was Nash's turnover that led to the 1st goal. As usual trying to do too much with the puck and turning it over, rather than using his 4 teammates on the ice. It was Richards dumb penalty when he had Stralman back that led to the PP goal. It was Richards and Nash who did nothing on the PP tonight. They weren't even getting shots.

So I blame both sides of it. But to be that naive and not see what has been going on all year with their defensive strategy is unfortunate. And to bring up the GAA just hides the inadequacies. Henrik is a dominating factor in the GAA, not Torts' system, at least not this year.
Spot on. Great post and I agree with all of it. If we really did have Dan Ellis in place, Torts would have been Fired a long time ago. He needs to adjust his system when half of the forward corps leave and new guys come in. Not enough guys are committed in the defensive end. I really don't like Nash in the defensive zone. He tries to do way to much, his slides don't work, and he doesn't lead by example like say a Callahan, or Fedotenko. If he learns how to stop being a hero, he would be so much more effective. They need to come together and bond as a group, hopefully Tortorella realizes that and let's them come together through losses and wins equally. Hopefully we win the last 2 games and go into the playoffs on a hot streak.

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Old
04-24-2013, 03:39 AM
  #711
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Spot on. Great post and I agree with all of it. If we really did have Dan Ellis in place, Torts would have been Fired a long time ago. He needs to adjust his system when half of the forward corps leave and new guys come in.
This is a straw man argument, and completely ridiculous. We don't have Dan Ellis, we have Henrik Lundqvist. And any team with Dan Ellis as their #1 goaltender would be at the bottom of the league. See: Carolina after Ward went down. Gimme a break with this crap.

And RGY - the whole point of them citing the GAA between the two seasons (apparently lost on you) is that you were implying the defensive system is awful and specifically that it is worse this year because we don't have the shot-blocking personnel. Yet, the facts don't match up with these statements. You can want them to be so as much as you want - but the fact of the matter is that the Rangers have one of the best defenses in the league by the numbers in both seasons and this year's GAA is not significantly different than last year's. So how are those non-shot blocking personnel suddenly making the defensive system ineffective if there is no actual difference? Lundqvist is absolutely a part of those numbers; but the defense in front of him certainly doesn't hurt.

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04-24-2013, 06:59 AM
  #712
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Is this team on the precipice of the playoffs because of Torts or in spite of him? I'd learn towards the latter.

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04-24-2013, 07:20 AM
  #713
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Meh. I know this thread is extremely reactionary and usually only active following losses, but nothing about this game really yelled, "Tort's Fault" to me.

We took a bunch of mediocre shots and just didn't score. Sucks, but it happens.
Yup. Can't really pin not finishing on the worst team in the league on Torts. That's just awful killer instinct and Markstrom having a good game. Complaining about Torts right now is about as logical as complaining about Henrik.

Every team in the league puls the goalie there down a goal. It's a pretty baseless gripe.

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04-24-2013, 08:18 AM
  #714
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If Torts hadn't pulled the goalie on the PP and they didn't score, people would have been ripping him for that. Some people just need someone to blame.

Pulling the goalie was the right percentage move for a team with a bad power play that desperately needs a goal. It didn't work out. That's the way it goes sometimes.

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04-24-2013, 09:12 AM
  #715
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If Torts hadn't pulled the goalie on the PP and they didn't score, people would have been ripping him for that. Some people just need someone to blame.

Pulling the goalie was the right percentage move for a team with a bad power play that desperately needs a goal. It didn't work out. That's the way it goes sometimes.
Right percentage move for who? The Rangers? Their % when pulling the goalie in my lifetime has to be one of the worst in the league. I wish someone could pull that stat out there hole

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04-24-2013, 09:14 AM
  #716
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Blaming Torts for the EN goal is kind of silly. He could of pulled Hank 10 seconds after the PP started, 10 seconds before the PP ended, 10 seconds after the PP ended, or 10 seconds before the game ended. The Rangers were giving up that goal. It's just who they are.

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04-24-2013, 09:18 AM
  #717
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I hate pulling the goalie. I wish we never did it.



But being an ******* aside, it happens. I'm sure Torts would get just as much **** for not pulling Hank.

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04-24-2013, 09:23 AM
  #718
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People complaining about Torts pulling the goalie are just being opportunists, searching for anything to take a cheapshot.

I wish he had done it earlier, to be honest.

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04-24-2013, 09:28 AM
  #719
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People complaining about Torts pulling the goalie are just being opportunists, searching for anything to take a cheapshot.

I wish he had done it earlier, to be honest.
I gave up the moment I knew we'd be in that position to the Panthers with the playoffs hanging in the balance. The fact they are in this position in the first place is a way bigger indictment of this teams coach/management.

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04-24-2013, 09:31 AM
  #720
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I gave up the moment I knew we'd be in that position to the Panthers with the playoffs hanging in the balance. The fact they are in this position in the first place is a way bigger indictment of this teams coach/management.
Agreed. I was watching the game with a buddy last night and with about 5 mins left in the 1st period I turned to him and said "This just feels like one of those weird, heartbreaking games...a true Ranger game"

I thought they carried play for the first 48 minutes. And I thought as soon as Florida scored the 2nd goal, they were completely deflated. It was almost like watching a preseason game (remember those), the last 10 mins.

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04-24-2013, 09:37 AM
  #721
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Agreed. I was watching the game with a buddy last night and with about 5 mins left in the 1st period I turned to him and said "This just feels like one of those weird, heartbreaking games...a true Ranger game"

I thought they carried play for the first 48 minutes. And I thought as soon as Florida scored the 2nd goal, they were completely deflated. It was almost like watching a preseason game (remember those), the last 10 mins.
Their goalie made some big stops and his team gained confidence because of it. The longer they let the Cats stay in the game, the better the chance was they weren't going to win.

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04-24-2013, 09:41 AM
  #722
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Their goalie made some big stops and his team gained confidence because of it. The longer they let the Cats stay in the game, the better the chance was they weren't going to win.
Not being ready to play from the opening faceoff has been a problem all season. Having a battle ready team is the one thing we should be able to count on from Tortorella.

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04-24-2013, 09:44 AM
  #723
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Not being ready to play from the opening faceoff has been a problem all season. Having a battle ready team is the one thing we should be able to count on from Tortorella.
It's a huge flaw in the system.

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04-24-2013, 09:55 AM
  #724
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I agree. In fact, things are lining up almost exactly as I predicted at the deadline.
Still, if this team gets knocked out early it's a huge defeat. Knocked out in conference finals, how would that make you feel? Like this year was a success?
My blind grandma could see this coming. Same old Je- wait...

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04-24-2013, 09:57 AM
  #725
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My blind grandma could see this coming. Same old Je- wait...
Nah, with our schedule and the added depth, going 8-4 after the 6-1 win vs the Pens was easily doable. We are 6-4, I still stand with the prediction, we will win the next two.

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