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Old
04-24-2013, 04:00 PM
  #151
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There was a huge difference in Cally's overall play between the NJD game and the FLA game.

NJD, he had 3 hits on his first shift, two of which caused a turnover. He was around the net, shooting, his feet never stopped.

FLA, he was watching alot. You could tell he felt the pressure to go get that next goal, and was looking two steps ahead of where he should have been. 3 potential goals just slipped off his stick.

Best phrase i've got is that he's "fighting it"

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04-24-2013, 04:13 PM
  #152
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Oy vey give it a rest
Right I forgot, Ryan Callahan is exempt from criticism.

He fits this system to a T.

He does it all for John Tortorella: grinding, shot blocking, JAM, good defensively and most importantly, low percentage offensive plays. He is a slightly above-average top 6 player who somehow gets ridiculous ice time relative to other forwards.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Ryan Callahan playing 21:26 mins a night on average is a big reason why the Rangers are so inept.

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04-24-2013, 04:17 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Right I forgot, Ryan Callahan is exempt from criticism.

He fits this system to a T.

He does it all for John Tortorella: grinding, shot blocking, JAM, good defensively and most importantly, low percentage offensive plays. He is a slightly above-average top 6 player who somehow gets ridiculous ice time relative to other forwards.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

Ryan Callahan playing 21:26 mins a night on average is a big reason why the Rangers are so inept.
We've discussed this before. He's on every penalty kill and every power play, neither of which I think anyone had a problem with. If i'm not mistaken, his ES ice time is on par with or only slightly above average with the rest of the top 6

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04-24-2013, 04:21 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
We've discussed this before. He's on every penalty kill and every power play, neither of which I think anyone had a problem with. If i'm not mistaken, his ES ice time is on par with or only slightly above average with the rest of the top 6
He is still top 30 in ES TOI/PG league wide amongst forwards. That's bad. The Rangers are unfortunately making a huge mistake by building their forward corps surrounding Ryan Callahan, a mistake that will only make it worse for the team and Callahan himself. They are Mark Prior'ing him to the ground and his play takes a dip as the years pass by.

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04-24-2013, 04:32 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
He is still top 30 in ES TOI/PG league wide amongst forwards. That's bad. The Rangers are unfortunately making a huge mistake by building their forward corps surrounding Ryan Callahan, a mistake that will only make it worse for the team and Callahan himself. They are Mark Prior'ing him to the ground and his play takes a dip as the years pass by.
That part isn't quite true. He's been consistenly scoring at a 30/30 pace, if not higher last year, and, regrettably, always misses some time due to injury. Even in this subpar season, he's one hot streak away from his usual pace.

Honestly, I think last year was his best year yet, and his play, up until last night, had been steadily improving.


I don't think they're building around Cally at all, I think he happens to be a piece that they don't want to move. They're not bringing in wingers or centers thinking "this guy will really help elevate Callahan's game"

You're right that he's tailor made for Torts system, which is why he gets so much ice time. Offensive zone start? Turn to Cally's line. Defensive Zone start? Turn to Cally's line. Need to protect a lead? Cally? need to change momentum? OT? . 5 on 3 for? . 5 on 3 against? Shootout? ****, even that he's done well in.

And for the most part, he's excelled in all of these. I get that he's not a superstar talent, but a player who is THAT versatile and effective at it is any coach's wet dream.

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04-24-2013, 04:45 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
That part isn't quite true. He's been consistenly scoring at a 30/30 pace, if not higher last year, and, regrettably, always misses some time due to injury. Even in this subpar season, he's one hot streak away from his usual pace.

Honestly, I think last year was his best year yet, and his play, up until last night, had been steadily improving.


I don't think they're building around Cally at all, I think he happens to be a piece that they don't want to move. They're not bringing in wingers or centers thinking "this guy will really help elevate Callahan's game"

You're right that he's tailor made for Torts system, which is why he gets so much ice time. Offensive zone start? Turn to Cally's line. Defensive Zone start? Turn to Cally's line. Need to protect a lead? Cally? need to change momentum? OT? . 5 on 3 for? . 5 on 3 against? Shootout? ****, even that he's done well in.

And for the most part, he's excelled in all of these. I get that he's not a superstar talent, but a player who is THAT versatile and effective at it is any coach's wet dream.
My apologies, I meant to say his play will end up taking a dip as the years pass by. But I have to disagree, I think his 10-11 season was his best one. He was playing really well until the Chara slapshot.

The only reason Callahan plays in all those situations is because this roster is very flawed. By the virtue of your descriptions, I can easily say Mike Richards, TJ Oshie or Logan Couture also fit that description. All three can play in any situation in the game. Richards averages 16:30 minutes per game, Oshie is 19:05 and Couture is 18:15. All three play far less than Ryan Callahan's 21:26 and are superior players.

All three of those players are depth players for their respective, contending teams. Callahan is the team's leading ice time getter amongst forwards. Callahan should be a depth player on a contending team. If the Rangers continue to get fooled into building around him, enjoy perennial 8th seed 1rst round exits.

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04-24-2013, 04:49 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
My apologies, I meant to say his play will end up taking a dip as the years pass by. But I have to disagree, I think his 10-11 season was his best one. He was playing really well until the Chara slapshot.

The only reason Callahan plays in all those situations is because this roster is very flawed. By the virtue of your descriptions, I can easily say Mike Richards, TJ Oshie or Logan Couture also fit that description. All three can play in any situation in the game. Richards averages 16:30 minutes per game, Oshie is 19:05 and Couture is 18:15. All three play far less than Ryan Callahan's 21:26 and are superior players.

All three of those players are depth players for their respective, contending teams. Callahan is the team's leading ice time getter amongst forwards. Callahan should be a depth player on a contending team. If the Rangers continue to get fooled into building around him, enjoy perennial 8th seed 1rst round exits.
How are they building around him?

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04-24-2013, 04:51 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
How are they building around him?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...ewName=summary

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04-24-2013, 06:08 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
My apologies, I meant to say his play will end up taking a dip as the years pass by. But I have to disagree, I think his 10-11 season was his best one. He was playing really well until the Chara slapshot.

The only reason Callahan plays in all those situations is because this roster is very flawed. By the virtue of your descriptions, I can easily say Mike Richards, TJ Oshie or Logan Couture also fit that description. All three can play in any situation in the game. Richards averages 16:30 minutes per game, Oshie is 19:05 and Couture is 18:15. All three play far less than Ryan Callahan's 21:26 and are superior players.

All three of those players are depth players for their respective, contending teams. Callahan is the team's leading ice time getter amongst forwards. Callahan should be a depth player on a contending team. If the Rangers continue to get fooled into building around him, enjoy perennial 8th seed 1rst round exits.
I think all of your comparisons are quite spot on, although I'd contend that while you classify them as depth players, I think all of them are looked to and counted on as primary scoring threats.

I think we'll agree that the difference is the coaching. The blues, Sharks, and Kings, to my knowledge, tend to have more traditional, set 1st, 2nd, 3rd lines. Torts seems to prefer 3 balanced scoring lines, and Callahan is always going to be on the one that gets more ice time, and he should be. He scores at a 30 goal or higher pace, and he's been doing it consistently (please, don't bring up Clarkson. His year was an an abberation, and everyone knows it).

The only other scorer we have who has a history of putting pucks in the net at that pace is Nash, and currently, while Stepan has been ripping **** apart, he's shooting at a 15.5% average, good for 68th in the league. But, this includes players who have 2 goals on 20 shots, so among shooters with over 100 shots, he has the 10th highest percetnage in the entire league He's only behind Kunitz, Carter, Stamkos, Tlusty, Vorachek, Brower, Taveres, PAP, and Kane. It's incredible, but can we continue to count on this?

a 30 goal scorer on any team is more than support. We tried building the team off of high end talent, and it didn't work, so it looks like we're going back to the "meh up top, solid through the middle" philosophy of forward corps building.

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04-24-2013, 06:41 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
I think all of your comparisons are quite spot on, although I'd contend that while you classify them as depth players, I think all of them are looked to and counted on as primary scoring threats.
They are secondary scoring players on their respective teams. 2nd line players.

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I think we'll agree that the difference is the coaching. The blues, Sharks, and Kings, to my knowledge, tend to have more traditional, set 1st, 2nd, 3rd lines. Torts seems to prefer 3 balanced scoring lines, and Callahan is always going to be on the one that gets more ice time, and he should be. He scores at a 30 goal or higher pace, and he's been doing it consistently (please, don't bring up Clarkson. His year was an an abberation, and everyone knows it).
Sharks don't really have that. They also have 3 undefined lines that constantly get juggled. Don't really watch the Blues, but the Kings do have fixed set lines. Kopitar is their 1C and Richards won't overtake him in ice time.

And that's exactly my point, on real teams, he'd get his ice time cut by 4-5 mins. But he is the catalyst on this team unfortunately.

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The only other scorer we have who has a history of putting pucks in the net at that pace is Nash, and currently, while Stepan has been ripping **** apart, he's shooting at a 15.5% average, good for 68th in the league. But, this includes players who have 2 goals on 20 shots, so among shooters with over 100 shots, he has the 10th highest percetnage in the entire league He's only behind Kunitz, Carter, Stamkos, Tlusty, Vorachek, Brower, Taveres, PAP, and Kane. It's incredible, but can we continue to count on this?

a 30 goal scorer on any team is more than support. We tried building the team off of high end talent, and it didn't work, so it looks like we're going back to the "meh up top, solid through the middle" philosophy of forward corps building.
He is a great support player and probably one of the better ones in the league. But there is no way in hell a team looking for cup aspirations should have Callahan, a winger who hasn't broken 60 pts as their leading ice time getter. No way. He is what is quite wrong with this team, mediocre relative to other top forwards.

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04-24-2013, 10:28 PM
  #161
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While I think Callahan is quietly having a really poor year, I think you take it a bit far in your criticism Kershaw. Callahan is about a lot more than points. The team follows him. My issue with Cally isn't his TOI, his point production or any other such stat. My issue is that he has only been showing up to certain games, and it's obvious when he mails it in or doesn't play his usual game. BECAUSE the team follows him so much, they ALL play down when Cally pulls his disappearing act. Henrik is our most talented player. Nash is our most skilled player. Callahan is our most important player--when he doesn't bring it, the team is almost sure to lose. That's why I said back in the original post that his down year has been the biggest problem for this team this season. When he plays like he used to, this team dominates. When he floats around and tries to do stupid fancy ****, the team loses to Florida.

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04-25-2013, 03:50 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
They are secondary scoring players on their respective teams. 2nd line players.
I'd refer to the top 2 lines, or at least 2nd line players as primary scorers, but that's just categorization. We both agree that they're all 2nd liners

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And that's exactly my point, on real teams, he'd get his ice time cut by 4-5 mins. But he is the catalyst on this team unfortunately.



He is a great support player and probably one of the better ones in the league. But there is no way in hell a team looking for cup aspirations should have Callahan, a winger who hasn't broken 60 pts as their leading ice time getter. No way. He is what is quite wrong with this team, mediocre relative to other top forwards.
So your feeling is that his top ice time is a problem beacuse it's a 2nd line caliber player receiving first line minutes, on a team that doesn't really have set numbered lines.

Personally, I don't think taking 3 or so shifts away from Callahan and giving one or two more to another winger, or line, is going to make much of a difference. I do agree that depending on Ryan Callahan to perform like a top line player is non-conducive to winning, and not even fair to Cally. We've all agreed: he's an above average second liner with one of the most versatile skill sets in the league and a 30 goal scoring pace. He does NOT provide 1st line offensive numbers.

That said, he's the 2nd best winger on the team, beat only by Rick Nash. We traded the idea of having 3 tier'd lines for having, essentially, three 2nd lines, an idea I get the feeling you're none too fond of.

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04-25-2013, 04:01 AM
  #163
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We need to look into getting a scoring LW. Hagelin, and Clowe are depth. Not 1st line wingers. Clowe is good on the boards, smart player, but he isn't who he used to be. Hopefully he picks it back up, I want to see this team healthy with a full training camp before any decisions are made. It will all be clear next season through the first half of the year. Healthy Dorsett, Staal, (maybe a miraculous recovery on Sauer's part). The new guys won't be new guys anymore, 1 full year + a training camp will do more good than bad. So on one hand I want to win a few playoff series, I'm more excited for next season. Remember, this is only half a season.

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04-25-2013, 04:15 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
While I think Callahan is quietly having a really poor year, I think you take it a bit far in your criticism Kershaw. Callahan is about a lot more than points. The team follows him. My issue with Cally isn't his TOI, his point production or any other such stat. My issue is that he has only been showing up to certain games, and it's obvious when he mails it in or doesn't play his usual game. BECAUSE the team follows him so much, they ALL play down when Cally pulls his disappearing act. Henrik is our most talented player. Nash is our most skilled player. Callahan is our most important player--when he doesn't bring it, the team is almost sure to lose. That's why I said back in the original post that his down year has been the biggest problem for this team this season. When he plays like he used to, this team dominates. When he floats around and tries to do stupid fancy ****, the team loses to Florida.
Callahan's success in his previous role has either gotten to his head, Tort's head or both, because he doesn't play like or is utilized like he used to.

He used to play like a grittier Hagelin; fly around the ice, pressure opponents, cycle in the o-zone, bang away at rebounds. He was mainly used in a defensive role at ES getting the hardest matchups and offensive production was only a secondary part of his role. He excelled in this role and eventually managed to produce points at a decent clip: he went from 0.9ESP/60 in 09-10 to 2.04 in 10-11 and 1.64 in 11-12.

This year he has suddenly been pushed into the role of an offensive player. He gets cushy matchups and zone starts, better linemates, and more ice time than ever. This has somehow transformed his game where the intensity has gone down and the low-% skill plays have increased, none of which has been a good thing. Despite his more offensive role, he is producing less on the scoresheet (1.54 ESP/60) and contributing a lot less off of it. He is also producing less on the PP, but I'm not sure if that is due to a change in how he plays or an overall decline of our PP. This tendency started last year, but has really accelerated this year.

I LOVED the Ryan Callahan of 10-11, but I'm not a fan of the new Ryan Callahan - he needs a reality check.

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04-25-2013, 07:50 AM
  #165
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I LOVED the Ryan Callahan of 10-11, but I'm not a fan of the new Ryan Callahan - he needs a reality check.
This EXACTLY. The first period that Callahan had against the devils reminded me exactly of the Callahan of a few years ago.... He came out scored a goal right around the net and then followed that up with a few great hits and energy the rest of the period...

The guy that is always attempting these blind/ behind-the-back passes to no one is starting to get on my nerves a little bit. He also had a golden opportunity to put it on net on a rebound against Florida, yet he hesistated and made a pass that was again not completed.

Really would be nice to have the swarming/hit-everything version of Callahan instead

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04-25-2013, 08:47 AM
  #166
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This EXACTLY. The first period that Callahan had against the devils reminded me exactly of the Callahan of a few years ago.... He came out scored a goal right around the net and then followed that up with a few great hits and energy the rest of the period...
So true. I loved what I saw from him in that period. Even if he didn't score just the hits and hard forecheck would have been enough. I feel like he alone is what made the difference in that game and gave us a cushion to play with.

I've been wondering all year what happened to the old Cally. Sadly I guess the poster before you is right. Torts decided to change his role.

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04-25-2013, 04:19 PM
  #167
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While I think Callahan is quietly having a really poor year, I think you take it a bit far in your criticism Kershaw. Callahan is about a lot more than points. The team follows him. My issue with Cally isn't his TOI, his point production or any other such stat. My issue is that he has only been showing up to certain games, and it's obvious when he mails it in or doesn't play his usual game. BECAUSE the team follows him so much, they ALL play down when Cally pulls his disappearing act. Henrik is our most talented player. Nash is our most skilled player. Callahan is our most important player--when he doesn't bring it, the team is almost sure to lose. That's why I said back in the original post that his down year has been the biggest problem for this team this season. When he plays like he used to, this team dominates. When he floats around and tries to do stupid fancy ****, the team loses to Florida.
He is too gassed and his game is a shell of what is used to be.

It's due to his playing style and management running him into the ground. He is an athlete, but there is only so much abuse one can take on a nightly basis. He's always taking and on the receiving end of big checks. Now he may be losing that stamina and makes it seem like he floats around.

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I'd refer to the top 2 lines, or at least 2nd line players as primary scorers, but that's just categorization. We both agree that they're all 2nd liners



So your feeling is that his top ice time is a problem beacuse it's a 2nd line caliber player receiving first line minutes, on a team that doesn't really have set numbered lines.

Personally, I don't think taking 3 or so shifts away from Callahan and giving one or two more to another winger, or line, is going to make much of a difference. I do agree that depending on Ryan Callahan to perform like a top line player is non-conducive to winning, and not even fair to Cally. We've all agreed: he's an above average second liner with one of the most versatile skill sets in the league and a 30 goal scoring pace. He does NOT provide 1st line offensive numbers.

That said, he's the 2nd best winger on the team, beat only by Rick Nash. We traded the idea of having 3 tier'd lines for having, essentially, three 2nd lines, an idea I get the feeling you're none too fond of.
Yup.

Callahan being the 2nd most producing winger on an NHL team is a big problem. HUGE problem. Especially 2013 Callahan, who is very inconsistent. This problem could be eased if we had good enough 200 ft centers to make our wingers look far better than they are like Krejci/Bergeron.

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This is true, I probably gave Gabby the most crap during the playoffs, but I did come to respect him for playing with only one good shoulder and still scoring clutch goals for the team. That to me is the true epitome of a warrior. Unfortunately, the media and casual Rangers fans won't give him the credit because he doesn't block shots or plays the right way. Man it's going to be depressing when Gabby inevitably gets traded and more pressure is sent to Callahan to produce when he is not capable of doing so.
lol.


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04-25-2013, 04:39 PM
  #168
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lol.
Lotto numbers please

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04-25-2013, 05:19 PM
  #169
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lol.
Be careful. You're in danger of contradicting your own "Callahan is immune to criticism" theory.

My hope is that Clowe, Hags, or even Kreider in the coming year really step up, and while I don't think any of them are going to surpass Cally, it's possible that they can alleviate much of that pressure. I don't mind Cally being the 2nd most productive winger at 50-60 points if we have 2-3 more behind him putting up 45-50 points, with at least close to 20 goals.

I'm actually a fan of the 3 scoring lines, one energy checking line format. We're less prone to relying on a single group of players, it makes us tougher to play against and defend, and a single player slumping won't kill the entire team. It so happens that Cally seems BUILT for this type of game, and, thank merciful freaking Zeus, he and Stepan have found some insane chemistry this year, after a season where Callahan had trouble finding chemistry with a center.

While you and I disagree at almost every turn, I can understand your point of wanting Callahan moved because it would force the team to restructure, but it seems if Sather/torts willingly switched team builds, you still wouldn't mind him as a second line winger. I happen to disagree strongly, but the argument you make is far more thought out and reasonable than what seems to come in in the GDTs and PGTs, which occasionally resembles a more knee-jerk emotional "Player X SUCKS!".

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04-25-2013, 05:34 PM
  #170
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I used to think Kershaw just had a totally unwarranted reverse-mancursh hate for Callahan.

But I'm beginning to understand what he's saying.

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04-25-2013, 05:38 PM
  #171
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lol.
Seven points in his last five games. Compare that to Gaborik, who has a whopping one assist in his last five games with the Jackets making a push for the playoffs.

Callahan struggled against Florida, but he has been coming on the past few games.

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04-25-2013, 05:49 PM
  #172
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I used to think Kershaw just had a totally unwarranted reverse-mancursh hate for Callahan.

But I'm beginning to understand what he's saying.
It took a while and a lot of headbutting, but he makes sense in his view.

Granted, I completely disagree with it and think he's wrong, but it's not the illogical hatedom some other players might get.

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04-25-2013, 05:58 PM
  #173
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It took a while and a lot of headbutting, but he makes sense in his view.

Granted, I completely disagree with it and think he's wrong, but it's not the illogical hatedom some other players might get.
I agree to extent. That being, we do rely way too much on Callahan. His minutes reflect that of somebody who should be carrying the team. Ryan Callahan can't carry a team. I also think the heavy reliance on Callahan is taking a toll on him and building a system around his style of play is problematic.

For me personally though, I don't think Callahan needs to be moved. If he and Torts together is a problem, Torts should go before Callahan. I also don't think Callahan being captain is an issue. There's no reason why your captain has to be your best player or your most important player. He's earned the C based on things that go beyond stats, TOI, team importance etc. That all takes a backseat to him putting his soul into this team, that's how you measure a captain imo. I also think relying on Callahan too much has more to do with the makeup of the team than Callahan himself.

So I think Callahan is a good player that needs to remain on this team and remain an important player on this team. That being said I would like to get a little deeper so he isn't expected to score every night and isn't expected to play 20-25 minutes every night. We're putting him in a role that frankly is above his head.

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04-25-2013, 06:03 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Callagraves View Post
Be careful. You're in danger of contradicting your own "Callahan is immune to criticism" theory.

My hope is that Clowe, Hags, or even Kreider in the coming year really step up, and while I don't think any of them are going to surpass Cally, it's possible that they can alleviate much of that pressure. I don't mind Cally being the 2nd most productive winger at 50-60 points if we have 2-3 more behind him putting up 45-50 points, with at least close to 20 goals.

I'm actually a fan of the 3 scoring lines, one energy checking line format. We're less prone to relying on a single group of players, it makes us tougher to play against and defend, and a single player slumping won't kill the entire team. It so happens that Cally seems BUILT for this type of game, and, thank merciful freaking Zeus, he and Stepan have found some insane chemistry this year, after a season where Callahan had trouble finding chemistry with a center.

While you and I disagree at almost every turn, I can understand your point of wanting Callahan moved because it would force the team to restructure, but it seems if Sather/torts willingly switched team builds, you still wouldn't mind him as a second line winger. I happen to disagree strongly, but the argument you make is far more thought out and reasonable than what seems to come in in the GDTs and PGTs, which occasionally resembles a more knee-jerk emotional "Player X SUCKS!".
Stepan has the Midas touch.

Everyone he touches turns into gold. Nash and Hags specifically. I still don't think him and Callahan are a good fit together, Callahan holds him back IMO. Hagelin and Nash are much more effective offensive players and they fit the stature of a nice scoring line, something Callahan shouldn't be on.

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04-25-2013, 06:06 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I agree to extent. That being, we do rely way too much on Callahan. His minutes reflect that of somebody who should be carrying the team. Ryan Callahan can't carry a team. I also think the heavy reliance on Callahan is taking a toll on him and building a system around his style of play is problematic.

For me personally though, I don't think Callahan needs to be moved. If he and Torts together is a problem, Torts should go before Callahan. I also don't think Callahan being captain is an issue. There's no reason why your captain has to be your best player or your most important player. He's earned the C based on things that go beyond stats, TOI, team importance etc. That all takes a backseat to him putting his soul into this team, that's how you measure a captain imo. I also think relying on Callahan too much has more to do with the makeup of the team than Callahan himself.

So I think Callahan is a good player that needs to remain on this team and remain an important player on this team. That being said I would like to get a little deeper so he isn't expected to score every night and isn't expected to play 20-25 minutes every night. We're putting him in a role that frankly is above his head.
I'd respond, but I agree with everything you said really. Yeah, we've seen Cally go full on god-mode and almost take over games at times, but the reality is he isn't the caliber of player who can do that more than a few times a year. Hell, the fact that he's ever done that is incredible considering that 3 years ago, nobody would have thought he was going to be the player that he is. He has already exceeded all expectations put upon him as a younger player, it's unfair to raise them even higher now.

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