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Old
04-24-2013, 04:11 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
Kreider doesn't get more than 5 minutes on pretty much any NHL team in the league. He is not NHL caliber right now.
I agree, but playing him with Boyle, Rupp, Asham, Powe, Halpern, Pyatt, Haley and Mashinter wasn't the best way to show what he can do. I just wish we had a coach who sticks to his own gameplan and allows players to make one or two mistakes without shuffling the lines all damn night.

Maybe next year... Who knows? He can either turn into the next Stepan or the next Jessiman. Anything is possible at this point

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04-24-2013, 04:26 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
He has 3 points in 20 games. He's been on the fourth line the past, what, three games? I've seen nothing to suggest that he could score 30 goals with any combination of players, not yet at least.
Kreider's total ice time this season (in 21 GP) is roughly 210 minutes. So his average ice time/game is around 10 minutes. However he hasn't played more than 9 minutes in a single game in all of April. In comparison, Pyatt's average ice time/game is about 15-17 minutes a night. Pyatt has played in twice as many games and managed 7 points more than Kreider (Pyatt is 6-4-10, Kreider is 2-1-3). Imagine if Kreider was consistently given 15-17 minutes a night, even with subpar linemates? He may even be able to produce or find his groove in a game.

If you went to work an 8-hour shift at a new job and were still getting acclimated to your superiors, co-workers, and the workload, how much would you learn if your boss sent you home 30 minutes into your shift after you made a couple mistakes? What if that happened for a week straight? After that week, you were sent to another branch of the company and given extra responsibilities and you thrived. You then get brought back to the original branch, but were given even less time to work. Do you really think that's a good way to learn and become comfortable at a job?

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04-24-2013, 04:33 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
I agree, but playing him with Boyle, Rupp, Asham, Powe, Halpern, Pyatt, Haley and Mashinter wasn't the best way to show what he can do. I just wish we had a coach who sticks to his own gameplan and allows players to make one or two mistakes without shuffling the lines all damn night.

Maybe next year... Who knows? He can either turn into the next Stepan or the next Jessiman. Anything is possible at this point
What's the alternative here? Disrupting an offense that is averaging over 3.5 goals per game in the month of April while the team is battling for playoff positioning just so the impatient people can get their fix of 14 minutes per night for Kreider? That makes a ton of sense...

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04-24-2013, 04:37 PM
  #704
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Plenty of forwards have taken time before they became NHL regulars - Henrik Zetterberg 23 yrs old, Andrew Ladd 24, David Backes 24, Patrick Sharp 25, to name a few.

2009 draftees are just starting to make their mark, a good handful of 1st through 3rd round picks are NHL regulars this season. Still looking like Kreider was a good pick where we got him. Kyle Palmieri, John Moore, Tim Erixon, Marcus Johansen followed up by Ryan O'Reilly in round 2 are probably the guys you'd consider better or on par.

Kreider turns 22 this Spring, Stepan turned 22 last Spring. Not saying he'll breakout to be a PPG forward, but he still has time on his side, still roughing out the edges, when that happens I'm hoping for a polished gem.

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04-24-2013, 04:45 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by htk30 View Post
Kreider's total ice time this season (in 21 GP) is roughly 210 minutes. So his average ice time/game is around 10 minutes. However he hasn't played more than 9 minutes in a single game in all of April. In comparison, Pyatt's average ice time/game is about 15-17 minutes a night. Pyatt has played in twice as many games and managed 7 points more than Kreider (Pyatt is 6-4-10, Kreider is 2-1-3). Imagine if Kreider was consistently given 15-17 minutes a night, even with subpar linemates? He may even be able to produce or find his groove in a game.
What the hell are you talking about? Prior to last night (where Pyatt played well and deserved more shifts), Taylor Pyatt has not gotten more than 15 minutes in a single game since March 3rd and has received fewer than 11 minutes in 12 of the last 17 games. Pyatt was getting more icetime earlier in the season, but he was also playing very well for a lot of that time and it was during the cluster**** of injuries and incompetence and losing where Tortorella was trying any sort of combination hoping for a spark.


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If you went to work an 8-hour shift at a new job and were still getting acclimated to your superiors, co-workers, and the workload, how much would you learn if your boss sent you home 30 minutes into your shift after you made a couple mistakes? What if that happened for a week straight? After that week, you were sent to another branch of the company and given extra responsibilities and you thrived. You then get brought back to the original branch, but were given even less time to work. Do you really think that's a good way to learn and become comfortable at a job?
Gee, I don't know. Why don't you ask Michael Del Zotto? Remember when Tortorella started limiting his minutes once he started making mistakes and then ultimately decided to ship him to Hartford for the rest of the year? It was the same crap with this fanbase about how his confidence would be ruined and Torts wasn't giving him a fair shot and all that kind of stuff. Yet somehow, even though he didn't like it then, he ended up a better player because of it. Some players have to take the harder route to the NHL. Remember when everyone was giving the Leafs **** about their handling of Kadri? He broke out this year. Will Kreider do the same in his career? Maybe, maybe not. But enough with this **** about Tortorella ruining his career because he won't play him after mistakes. If this was November then I guarantee Tortorella absolutely would let him play through them. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury this year with the shortened season. We're in the final month of the season and we're clinging by the hair on our nuts to a playoff spot. Now isn't the time to let Kreider make mistakes. Does it suck? Yes. Is it anyone's fault? No. Maybe Bettman, if you want.

You don't send an employee home because they make mistakes during training or their first few shifts, but you also don't give the new, untrusted employee important roles during the prime hours on Black Friday, either.

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04-24-2013, 04:55 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by htk30 View Post
Kreider's total ice time this season (in 21 GP) is roughly 210 minutes. So his average ice time/game is around 10 minutes. However he hasn't played more than 9 minutes in a single game in all of April. In comparison, Pyatt's average ice time/game is about 15-17 minutes a night. Pyatt has played in twice as many games and managed 7 points more than Kreider (Pyatt is 6-4-10, Kreider is 2-1-3). Imagine if Kreider was consistently given 15-17 minutes a night, even with subpar linemates? He may even be able to produce or find his groove in a game.

If you went to work an 8-hour shift at a new job and were still getting acclimated to your superiors, co-workers, and the workload, how much would you learn if your boss sent you home 30 minutes into your shift after you made a couple mistakes? What if that happened for a week straight? After that week, you were sent to another branch of the company and given extra responsibilities and you thrived. You then get brought back to the original branch, but were given even less time to work. Do you really think that's a good way to learn and become comfortable at a job?
For the sake of this example, let's assume this job that I'm working at is similar to being an NHL player in that 1. It's what I absolutely love to do, 2. I get paid the same no matter how long I'm there, and 3. This swapping of responsibilities (callups and demotions) and varying amounts of work-time were normal practice is the industry for someone in my role (which they are for rookie players) - then I don't think it'd be such a problem. Being an NHL player isn't comparable to most jobs for so many reasons.

Regarding the first paragraph, I don't think that's a good way to develop a top prospect, to just feed them 15-17 minutes a night regardless of how they play. If they're hustling all shift every shift and making things happen, fine, give them as much time as they can handle. I just don't think Kreider has been earning more time than he's been given. If the Whale were still playing, I'd rather he be kept down there and get a good thing going, but at this point, he's on the ice, working on his defense, working on his hitting, and if he starts to make an impact for a few shifts in a row, he can be moved up and maybe establish himself.

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Old
04-24-2013, 05:17 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
What's the alternative here? Disrupting an offense that is averaging over 3.5 goals per game in the month of April while the team is battling for playoff positioning just so the impatient people can get their fix of 14 minutes per night for Kreider? That makes a ton of sense...
Hold on, I am not saying Kreider should play 14 minutes a game at this moment, but it's also not fair to judge him based on games he plays with the bottom 6 guys, of which only 1 has scored more than 2 goals.

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04-24-2013, 05:29 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
Hold on, I am not saying Kreider should play 14 minutes a game at this moment, but it's also not fair to judge him based on games he plays with the bottom 6 guys, of which only 1 has scored more than 2 goals.
You're complaining that he's playing with the fourth line guys. Well, what do you want, exactly? Torts to give Kreider shifts with Brassard or Stepan just for ***** and giggles in the middle of the game? Hagelin played his way into the lineup last year by playing productive hockey while on the fourth line with John Mitchell centering him. Rest assured that if Kreider was putting in really good shifts then Tortorella would start giving him more icetime and perhaps with better linemates. Unfortunately, he hasn't done that.

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04-24-2013, 05:50 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
You're complaining that he's playing with the fourth line guys. Well, what do you want, exactly? Torts to give Kreider shifts with Brassard or Stepan just for ***** and giggles in the middle of the game? Hagelin played his way into the lineup last year by playing productive hockey while on the fourth line with John Mitchell centering him. Rest assured that if Kreider was putting in really good shifts then Tortorella would start giving him more icetime and perhaps with better linemates. Unfortunately, he hasn't done that.
What do people expect him to do with Powe and Asham? He's not going to score playing with those guys. All you can ask him to do is to not make any defensive mistakes and he hasn't.

Kreider's an off the puck player. Just go watch the shift where he gets free for what would've been a breakaway last night, but Powe fails to notice him and instead decides to skate the puck up the ice himself. Kreider is fantastic at getting himself in position to do damage if his centerman has the awareness to know to look for him. He's not the type of guy who carries the puck up the ice on his own though. If you put him with Stepan, Brassard, or Richards, then you'd get results from him. He can't score playing limited minutes with absolute scrubs though.

Last night was the perfect night to use Kreider. They needed speed to break through Florida's collapsing defense. Just look at the chances Moore created. The fact that Kreider didn't get a chance last night is proof of Torts' pigheadedness.

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04-24-2013, 06:14 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
What do people expect him to do with Powe and Asham? He's not going to score playing with those guys. All you can ask him to do is to not make any defensive mistakes and he hasn't.
Nothings stopping him from being aggressive, being proactive instead of reactive, playing something other than timid. Your linemates have no impact on that.

I find all this discussion about what kind of player Kreider will be to be a bit premature, being he hasnt even shown a willingness to show us what kind of player he will be.

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04-24-2013, 06:32 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
What do people expect him to do with Powe and Asham? He's not going to score playing with those guys. All you can ask him to do is to not make any defensive mistakes and he hasn't.

Kreider's an off the puck player. Just go watch the shift where he gets free for what would've been a breakaway last night, but Powe fails to notice him and instead decides to skate the puck up the ice himself. Kreider is fantastic at getting himself in position to do damage if his centerman has the awareness to know to look for him. He's not the type of guy who carries the puck up the ice on his own though. If you put him with Stepan, Brassard, or Richards, then you'd get results from him. He can't score playing limited minutes with absolute scrubs though.

Last night was the perfect night to use Kreider. They needed speed to break through Florida's collapsing defense. Just look at the chances Moore created. The fact that Kreider didn't get a chance last night is proof of Torts' pigheadedness.
I don't exactly see what this has to do with Torts' use of him. This isn't time for experimenting. The team is desperate for results, and you have a lineup that has been phenomenal the past couple of weeks and was thoroughly outplaying the Panthers. If the team looked dead and was unable to get any offense going then, yes, changes couldn't hurt. But the Rangers were out-chancing Florida heavily. Sometimes you get bounces, like against Buffalo. Sometimes you run into a zoned-in goaltender and don't get your bounces, like last night. It's a hell of a lot easier to suggest lineup changes after the fact. You want Tortorella to abandon what has been working just so Kreider doesn't have to skate alongside Darroll Powe? You're right. Kreider's game is better suited with a Brassard or Stepan or Richards. Unfortunately, we're not in the pre-season. We're not in October. We're in the final stretch of the season with a playoff spot up for grabs. This isn't the time to toy around.

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04-24-2013, 08:43 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Nothings stopping him from being aggressive, being proactive instead of reactive, playing something other than timid. Your linemates have no impact on that.

I find all this discussion about what kind of player Kreider will be to be a bit premature, being he hasnt even shown a willingness to show us what kind of player he will be.
How has his play been timid? He hasn't looked timid since his first stint with us this season. Since then he's either looked good or gotten so little ice time that it's impossible to make a call.

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I don't exactly see what this has to do with Torts' use of him. This isn't time for experimenting. The team is desperate for results, and you have a lineup that has been phenomenal the past couple of weeks and was thoroughly outplaying the Panthers. If the team looked dead and was unable to get any offense going then, yes, changes couldn't hurt. But the Rangers were out-chancing Florida heavily. Sometimes you get bounces, like against Buffalo. Sometimes you run into a zoned-in goaltender and don't get your bounces, like last night. It's a hell of a lot easier to suggest lineup changes after the fact. You want Tortorella to abandon what has been working just so Kreider doesn't have to skate alongside Darroll Powe? You're right. Kreider's game is better suited with a Brassard or Stepan or Richards. Unfortunately, we're not in the pre-season. We're not in October. We're in the final stretch of the season with a playoff spot up for grabs. This isn't the time to toy around.
I'm so sick of this garbage argument. This team just lost to the Panthers twice. They have a demonstrated lack of finishers in the lineup. They need more offensive punch. Flipping Kreider with Pyatt isn't taking some huge risk. It's not going to ruin whatever secret mojo you think the team has going for it right now.

The fact is that while they got a lot of shots on goal last night they generated very little traffic in front of the net, showed very little capability to break through the Panthers' collapsing defense, and generated very few quality scoring chances. If we're going to have any shot to actually do anything this season we need to take a "gamble" and give Kreider a legitimate chance.

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04-24-2013, 09:40 PM
  #713
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How has his play been timid? He hasn't looked timid since his first stint with us this season. Since then he's either looked good or gotten so little ice time that it's impossible to make a call.



I'm so sick of this garbage argument. This team just lost to the Panthers twice. They have a demonstrated lack of finishers in the lineup. They need more offensive punch. Flipping Kreider with Pyatt isn't taking some huge risk. It's not going to ruin whatever secret mojo you think the team has going for it right now.

The fact is that while they got a lot of shots on goal last night they generated very little traffic in front of the net, showed very little capability to break through the Panthers' collapsing defense, and generated very few quality scoring chances. If we're going to have any shot to actually do anything this season we need to take a "gamble" and give Kreider a legitimate chance.
Zil you have been spot on in both this thread and the Torts thread.

I'm quite sick of the second argument as well that you quoted. This isn't the time to be experimenting? When will that time come? Next season? I'm sure some excuse will arise as to why he has to play on the 4th line with crap hockey players. It's always something else with the Torts lovers here as well as the babying of Kreider. This team has struggled to score ALL YEAR LONG. ALL YEAR. We had a chance to clinch last night. We were playing a poor panthers team that had already beat us on our own ice this year. Hold on let me emphasize that a little more, we were playing a Panthers team that is en route to a last place finish in the NHL. We couldn't spare 4-5 shifts of Kreider playing with Richards or Brassard? C'mon that's just utterly ridiculous. Richards is currently shifting between being our 2nd and 3rd line center. Being that, I really refuse to believe having Kreider get shifts in the 1st and 2nd period on the 3rd line with richards who has been playing better, would hurt the team in the game last night against the last place panthers.

It's comical because for some reason last year in the PLAYOFFS as the 1ST PLACE TEAM, Torts did just that, playing Kreider in the top 9 in the 1st and 2nd periods, and then limiting his ice time in the 3rd to hold leads. I mentioned this earlier today, but are we still going to ignore Kreider got all of his goals in the 1st and 2nd periods in the playoffs? I actually think he had one in the 3rd against the Devils, which I believe was on the PP* albeit with a dish pass from Anisimov. Now Torts is worried about Kreider making mistakes? Now he's not good enough to play in the top 9? He took his demotion this year and improved his game. He went down to CT and SCORED GOALS. Yeah goals, that thing this team lacks. But his reward is being called up and having his ass planted on the 4th line with offensively challenged players.

I'm sick of it. Absolutely sick of it. Let the damn kid get minutes with Richards and Zucc. Take a damn chance. Kreider is a sniper. He is a scorer. Gaborik and Nash were your pure goal scorers. You traded one. The big argument after last season was Gaborik needed someone to take the load off him. We go get Nash. We traded Gaborik, more because of his contract than anything else; you need to replace that player type.

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04-24-2013, 11:36 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Zil you have been spot on in both this thread and the Torts thread.

I'm quite sick of the second argument as well that you quoted. This isn't the time to be experimenting? When will that time come? Next season? I'm sure some excuse will arise as to why he has to play on the 4th line with crap hockey players. It's always something else with the Torts lovers here as well as the babying of Kreider. This team has struggled to score ALL YEAR LONG. ALL YEAR. We had a chance to clinch last night. We were playing a poor panthers team that had already beat us on our own ice this year. Hold on let me emphasize that a little more, we were playing a Panthers team that is en route to a last place finish in the NHL. We couldn't spare 4-5 shifts of Kreider playing with Richards or Brassard? C'mon that's just utterly ridiculous. Richards is currently shifting between being our 2nd and 3rd line center. Being that, I really refuse to believe having Kreider get shifts in the 1st and 2nd period on the 3rd line with richards who has been playing better, would hurt the team in the game last night against the last place panthers.

It's comical because for some reason last year in the PLAYOFFS as the 1ST PLACE TEAM, Torts did just that, playing Kreider in the top 9 in the 1st and 2nd periods, and then limiting his ice time in the 3rd to hold leads. I mentioned this earlier today, but are we still going to ignore Kreider got all of his goals in the 1st and 2nd periods in the playoffs? I actually think he had one in the 3rd against the Devils, which I believe was on the PP* albeit with a dish pass from Anisimov. Now Torts is worried about Kreider making mistakes? Now he's not good enough to play in the top 9? He took his demotion this year and improved his game. He went down to CT and SCORED GOALS. Yeah goals, that thing this team lacks. But his reward is being called up and having his ass planted on the 4th line with offensively challenged players.

I'm sick of it. Absolutely sick of it. Let the damn kid get minutes with Richards and Zucc. Take a damn chance. Kreider is a sniper. He is a scorer. Gaborik and Nash were your pure goal scorers. You traded one. The big argument after last season was Gaborik needed someone to take the load off him. We go get Nash. We traded Gaborik, more because of his contract than anything else; you need to replace that player type.
You make a good point throughout your post, but in the end - I get the flaw to it -
JT - but who would block shots (remember Zuke might be apprehensive after breaking his wrist last year) and grind in the corners if Kreider and Pyatt switched lines. See??? Impossible..

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04-25-2013, 10:24 AM
  #715
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Hold on, I am not saying Kreider should play 14 minutes a game at this moment, but it's also not fair to judge him based on games he plays with the bottom 6 guys, of which only 1 has scored more than 2 goals.
What would you consider a good line for Kreider then? I agree with you because I think the only reason he's not playing the way he's capable of is because he's not paired with the right guys. I think Boyle is the reason for most of his troubles. They liked how Boyle and Kreider played in the postseason last year so they try to make chemistry with the guys but Boyle clearly hasn't generated much of anything this year and I think he's lessening Kreider's potential but hey, that's just me.

I think Kreider and Brassard would work great together but it's a little risky considering the fact I don't think Kreider should get as much ice time as Brassard does. What about you?

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04-25-2013, 10:29 AM
  #716
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I am not saying Kreider deserves top line minutes, because he doesn't. But to judge him solely on games played with fringe-players like Powe, Bickel (he was a winger too once or twice this season), Mashinter, Halpern, Boyle, Pyatt, Asham and Haley is just not fair. He will have to earn the right to play for the Rangers, but when he is given a chance on the 4th line, it's not a far way to judge his achievements. Even Nash would struggle on the 4th line.

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04-25-2013, 10:56 AM
  #717
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
I agree, but playing him with Boyle, Rupp, Asham, Powe, Halpern, Pyatt, Haley and Mashinter wasn't the best way to show what he can do. I just wish we had a coach who sticks to his own gameplan and allows players to make one or two mistakes without shuffling the lines all damn night.

Maybe next year... Who knows? He can either turn into the next Stepan or the next Jessiman. Anything is possible at this point
If he's not the shining star on a line with Boyle&Pyatt, why should he be rewarded with more ice time? Of course he'd have had more points if he was playing with Stepan&Nash, but so would Boyle. Thing is, weather we like it or not, he haven't been as good as we thought and wanted him to be.

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04-25-2013, 11:28 AM
  #718
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Here's an interesting ESPN article from back in October:

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The other key for Kreider will be developing into a sound two-way player. Kreider's physical skills have always been so much better than everyone else at his level that he hasn't had to master play without the puck. Usually, he had the puck. When he resumes his NHL career, it will be his development as an overall player where he can show the most growth.
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"All of these things that are split-second decisions that these players make instinctively in the offensive part of the game, now they have to think about it," Schoenfeld said. "Now you have to get them to the point where their defensive play is instinctive as well."
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Grant Sonier's Take
ESPN.com NHL scouting insider Grant Sonier weighs in on Kreider's ceiling and floor:

Best case: "Best case would be a second-line, 30-goal scorer. He possesses a big-time quick-release shot. He has that well-documented speed and quickness. He's a world-class skater. The upside on him, because of his speed and size, is definitely a 30-goal scorer."

Worst case: "Checking line forward. At worst, he basically just goes out and uses his skating and size and goes up and down the wing to create energy. There's too much physical raw talent there for him not to play in the NHL ... I'm just not sold that he has enough creativity to his game to allow him to score as much as he should with the physical tools that he has. I think he should score 30 goals because of his physical tools. Worst case, I think he'll probably end up in the 15-goal range."
http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/blog/...-chris-kreider

Was not the ideal first professional season for Kreider. I'm not down on him but I'm hoping to see significant improvement next season.

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04-25-2013, 04:10 PM
  #719
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Next year will be a different story. I believe Kreider will have a breakout year next year during a full season. This year was a mess because of the lockout and the overall teams play has been subpar

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04-25-2013, 04:28 PM
  #720
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Next year will be a different story. I believe Kreider will have a breakout year next year during a full season. This year was a mess because of the lockout and the overall teams play has been subpar

Next year is a full season so mistakes don't mean nearly as much as this year.

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04-25-2013, 04:51 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by KreidertheGlider View Post
Next year is a full season so mistakes don't mean nearly as much as this year.
I still don't get why Miller was used for more than 5 games.

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Old
04-26-2013, 01:44 AM
  #722
GWOW
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RFA after next season.

Hopefully playing for a contract will light a fire under his ass.

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Old
04-26-2013, 09:17 AM
  #723
3rd Guy High
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He got a lot more ice time with good offensive players last night. Needs to relax and not go 100% all the time. He's gotta pick and choose his spots to take off a little bit more.

He plays too close to the defensemen off the rush. His linemates can't get him the puck if he's always on top of them. Needs to look at Richards and Brassard in how they create space for themselves. If he can learn even a little bit of that and learn how to get into the open areas of the ice, he will be fine.

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Old
04-26-2013, 09:40 AM
  #724
Bleed Ranger Blue
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Moved up in the lineup when Clowe got hurt. Did jack-squat with it.

...and the beat goes on.

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Old
04-26-2013, 09:55 AM
  #725
Fleury4ever
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If the Rangers had traded Kreider instead of Dubinsky, how much better is this team right now?

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